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If Gods Law is Perfect, why is it called a curse if you cant keep it perfeclty?

disciple1

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Emmm... okay so... here's what I think...

NT is clear that if we try to be justified by the law, we cannot and in doing so we bring ourselves under the curse because as many are under the works of the law are under the curse, because cursed is everyone who does not keep the whole law. And humans are not capable of being sanctified by the law because we cannot keep the whole of it.

But then comes Christ who kept the whole law. And then he died. And we, we are given a chance to now be in Christ through His death and resurrection.

So the answer is simple. Since Christ fulfilled the law, and we are supposed to be in Christ and Christ in us, the only way for us to fulfill the law is by following Jesus and living in Him. It's only when we live in the One who fulfilled the law that His lawful righteousness becomes ours by virtue of being in Him.

So the only way we can fulfill the law is through submission to Christ.
1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
 
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FlyingTurtle

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1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Nothing here is inconsistent with what I said. It's by abiding in Christ that we live and move like He did. The goats in the above, while they called Him Lord, they did not abide in Him. When we abide in Him He changes us. We are conformed to His image and do the things He did. Abiding in Christ is far more than calling oneself a Christian. But when you are in Christ and do things as He did, it is not you but the life of Christ in you.
 
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disciple1

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Nothing here is inconsistent with what I said. It's by abiding in Christ that we live and move like He did. The goats in the above, while they called Him Lord, they did not abide in Him. When we abide in Him He changes us. We are conformed to His image and do the things He did. Abiding in Christ is far more than calling oneself a Christian. But when you are in Christ and do things as He did, it is not you but the life of Christ in you.
Galatians chapter 3
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
 
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Elder 111

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Psalm 19:7(NKJV)
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;


Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
The law is not here called a curse! If you are seeking salvation by works is the cause of the curse. Can circumcision save?
 
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Cribstyl

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Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Well said, but what does Rom 8 teach without your implications?

The requirement of the law that's fulfilled in us is death. It comes through faith in the death of Christ; not by the law or having your mind set on keeping the law as you seem to imply.

Rom 8:1-3 teaches that we're not condemned (by the law) because we're in Christ. Verse 2 makes it clear that by living in the spirit we're not subjected to the law of sin and death. Verse 3 explains that the law could not make us free from death.

So Bob, you're not applying the scriptures to knowledge.
 
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Cribstyl

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BobRyan said:
If you would like me to quote Romans 8 again - I am happy to do it. :)
Your lesson does not submit to those scriptures, it's the opposite.
BobRyan said:
As I pointed out with Romans 3 - and in Gal 3 - the purpose of the Law for the lost - is to show that the Law of God still exists, is still binding... it still defines sin - it still shows that the lost need to accept salvation.
Here it is from Gal 3 -
Galatians chapter 3
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Are you serious? Where do you get the idea that Gal3 is saying the law of God is still binding or still exist? You're failing to prove your own arguments.


BobRyan said:
But Gal 3 makes it even more clear here - The LAW of God -- IS scripture AND it shuts up ALL - EVERYONE "under sin" -- as Romans 3 points out - it defines what sin IS.

BEFORE faith -- comes all you have is the law to tell you that you are bound for the second death - and need salvation.
That is not the purpose of the law AFTER you are saved.

21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

===================

all of this was already pointed out to us here -

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68387718, member: 235244"]
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
You're grossly mistaken in your understanding of many of these scriptures. Being shut up under sin does not mean being shut up under law.
 
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Cribstyl

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Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible

Romans 6

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

...

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
...
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
What do you want us to believe these scriptures are saying?
You'll ignore the fact in your scriptures that we're not under the law and mischaracterize what is meant by grace.
 
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disciple1

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The law is not here called a curse! If you are seeking salvation by works is the cause of the curse. Can circumcision save?
Matthew 11
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
2nd John
6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
1 John chapter 4 verse 8, 16

Says God is love.

I'll go with love rather than bear a heavy burden that no one but Christ has ever been able to carry.
 
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BobRyan

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QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68388922, member: 235244"]Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible

Romans 6

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

...

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
...
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/QUOTE]

What do you want us to believe these scriptures are saying?


That the point made in these scriptures is irrefutable.
 
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BobRyan

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Actually he said "My commands" and 'My Words'. He never said he came to teach others to keep the law given Moses like Jews/Israel. To claim that is to twist Messiah's teachings.

Turns out - HE claims HE gave the words of Scripture - such that they are "the Word of God" - and HE is God.

Christ is the one speaking the TEN Commandments - according to the NT.

Heb 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
 
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BobRyan

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SAAN, you said you never rely on the law for salvation; then in the same breath to explain this you say "but part of salvation is" "to keep the commandments of God, i.e. the law. You just spoke out of both sides of your mouth!

Not quote true
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"not the hearers of the LAW are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law will be JUSTIFIED ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Romans 2:13-16
The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:112

In Matt 7 Christ explains this as the good tree - producing good fruits. Not as an evil tree producing good fruits so that it can turn into a good tree.

1John 5 says it this --
5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.


=========================

Those texts are irrefutable.
 
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Cribstyl

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QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68388922, member: 235244"]Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible

Romans 6

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

...

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
...
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.




BobRyan said:
That the point made in these scriptures is irrefutable.
The irrefutable point made by these scriptures is that we should not sin because we're not under the law. It explains that believers are dead to sin because we're united with Christ through baptism. Somehow you think you've made a point that we're under the law.
 
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BobRyan

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That the point made in these scriptures is irrefutable." The irrefutable point made by these scriptures is that we should not sin because we're not under the law. .
[/quote]

And according to Romans 3, and Romans 7 and Galatians 3 and 1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law" -- it is the Law that defines what sin is - and violation of God's Law - is in fact.. .sin
 
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Cribstyl

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And according to Romans 3, and Romans 7 and Galatians 3 and 1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law" -- it is the Law that defines what sin is - and violation of God's Law - is in fact.. .sin

Allow me to analyze your Rom3, text that defines sin? Is it Rom3:20?

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
It should be seen as a shameless scam to isolate this partial quote above to imply that the law is a list of all the possible sins that a person can commit. This statement says and means; By doing what the law requires will not cause you to be right in God's eyes. because the law is a list of sinful acts.
My point is the text is saying: there is more to being righteous than keeping the law. Fact is, the next text eliminates the law from the whole equation.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Why even bother with your other examples?? The text is teaching that it's not about what you have kept but rather what Christ have done. No, it's not saying that sin is OK.......
 
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Sophrosyne

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Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Why even bother with your other examples????
This verse right here slams the door on the Law's usefulness if righteousness can be manifested WITHOUT the Law, witnessed by the LAW and the PROPHETS (Jesus and Moses being prophets) then what usefulness does the Law have when it comes to righteousness?
Once righteousness is manifested, then what use is the Law? Would one claim that the Law can cancel righteousness that it never gave?
We see continual claims this scripture is but a LIE by those claiming that we "NEED" to keep the Law? Certainly this scripture cancels the notion it is needed for righteousness.... why even bother is the perfect answer. Why do people feel the need to do things that are a waste of time to try and obtain something that they should already have had if they truly believed God via Paul?
 
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Cribstyl

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This verse right here slams the door on the Law's usefulness if righteousness can be manifested WITHOUT the Law, witnessed by the LAW and the PROPHETS (Jesus and Moses being prophets) then what usefulness does the Law have when it comes to righteousness?
Once righteousness is manifested, then what use is the Law? Would one claim that the Law can cancel righteousness that it never gave?
We see continual claims this scripture is but a LIE by those claiming that we "NEED" to keep the Law? Certainly this scripture cancels the notion it is needed for righteousness.... why even bother is the perfect answer. Why do people feel the need to do things that are a waste of time to try and obtain something that they should already have had if they truly believed God via Paul?
Amen
 
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disciple1

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QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68388922, member: 235244"]Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible

Romans 6

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

...

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
...
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.




That the point made in these scriptures is irrefutable.[/QUOTE]
No where in the bible does God say you obeyed the law pretty good come into my kingdom, but it does say this.
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
 
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disciple1

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QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68388922, member: 235244"]Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible

Romans 6

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

...

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
...
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.




That the point made in these scriptures is irrefutable.[/QUOTE]
If you obeyed the law without sinning I would think this applied to me, but since you don't it applies to you.
2 Peter chapter 3 verse 16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
 
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Galatians 3:6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.


The confusion with justification arises because of another related term, righteousness, which translators fail when trying to convey what it meant in the honor shame societies of the ANE, in the context of the client patron relationship.

Righteousness had the connotation of, not being found moral, but of being found loyal.


Justification in the Old and the New Covenants

Old Covenant

Luke 18: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

What exactly did the Pharisee do wrong?

The Pharisees did NOT obey the law. They rationalized that since the promise to Abraham was unconditional, all a person had to do to receive the promise was to be born a Jew. To distinguish themselves as Jews they followed the part of the law that identified them as Jews. They observed the rituals, read out loud from the law. They left out justice, mercy and faithfulness to be the image of God.

Luke 11:42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

Romans 2:13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God,
but the doers of the law who will be justified.

What did the publican do right? He confessed he was a sinner. Obviously you can't confess your inadequacy unless you try to do good things, and fail. And then you find out that you need God to forgive you, overlook your inadequacy. Jesus knew that the rich young ruler was not following ALL the law, because no one could follow all the law. Different people have different thresholds. Some reach their limit of ability with the ten commandments, some with the 613 precepts. Instead of going through all the requirements, Jesus went to the extreme requirement, to make the young man realise his need for God.

Justification in the old covenant was exaltation, but there is no indication that the publican in the Temple knew he was exalted. Indicating an exaltation in Abraham's bosom, in the afterlife. The temporal life of the publican never changed, he would keep coming back to the Temple and keep asking for forgiveness, chained as he was to a body of death. This is the curse of the law.

However, even though the law killed the ability of the believer to be blessings to the world, because they believed God and attempted to observe all the law, they were exalted in Abraham's bosom, like Lazarus, unlike the rich man who never attempted to follow all the law. When Christ descended to the grave, He released these believers. They were judged, and since they believed God's word, their spirits sit with Him in high places. Since their bodies could not be subdued, these were not resurrected to a resurrection of life, but were discarded. This is why the least in the kingdom of God is greater than the greatest in the old covenant.


New Covenant

Galatians 3:2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

In the New Covenant, the law has been abolished, since it was a part of the old covenant. Adam and His descendants lived in a situation where they knew good and evil, but could not obey God's Law because of the body of death. What was required to complete the old covenant?

The old covenant was a covenant of requirements and benefits. Like all contracts, it required one party to pay and the other party to provide goods or services. Humanity had lost the benefit of being in God's presence because of culpability, knowing good and evil and doing evil. In God's presence, Adam could, by the Holy Spirit subdue creation, subdue his body. This body had sinful thoughts, could think about disobeying God, could disbelieve God's warning, could attribute bad intentions of God's warning to a deprivation of good things by Him, things like withholding the power of being like God. The only reason Adam could be in God's presence was because these sinful thoughts and disbelief were not sin, because Adam did not have critical facilities, the ability to judge, the ability to know good from evil. This is called juvenility, the absence of complete critical ability, the reason minors are not prosecutable under criminal law. In God's presence, Adam could learn obedience, subdue his body, and then God would have allowed him to acquire the ability to know good from evil. Away from God's presence because of loss of juvenility and subsequent culpability, humanity was stuck. Thankfully, God sent Christ.

The work for Christ was to get humanity back into God's presence without dying, because they were sinful: Adam's original situation. Christ had to get humanity out of the jurisdiction of the law or protect them from the ill effects of being in God's presence whilst still sinful. He couldn't reverse loss of juvenility. However He could suspend law. Humanity was tied to law. The only way humanity could be untied was by death. Christ's death was the death of the old humanity, just as Adam's creation was the beginning of the first humanity's existence.

Christ's obedience led to redemption of humanity in the form of payment of restitution leading to lifting of a sentence, just as Adam's disobedience was the condemnation of humanity, in the form of the removal of juvenility and the pronouncement and execution of a sentence. One led to the end of the power of the law over humanity, the other had led to the operationalization of the jurisdiction of the law on humanity.

The first fruit of this act of obedience was Christ. His death was nullified and he was raised. Into an existence free of Law.

Those who are baptised into Christ are baptised into His death, losing their membership in the old humanity and share in His resurrection into a new life, the life of living an existence free of Law.

Justification in the new covenant is God recognizing our act of loyalty, obedience to the new command to confess our sin of serving Egypt, in order to love, to serve our fellow men, by becoming a child of Abraham, by believing Jesus is our Deliverer, sent to bring us out of Egypt, salvation being through following Him out of Egypt. In hearing with faith, confessing Christ was Lord, not Caesar, not Egypt, we are recognised as loyal members of God's People, and receive the Holy Spirit, moving from death to eternal living. As opposed to the old covenant of justification of doing the works of the law, confessing our failure, being recognized as loyal member of God's People, and being protected by the guardianship of the law. The curse of the law was to be in the old humanity, with no giving of the Holy Spirit, therefore no moving from death to eternal living, no option to being blessings to the world, able to bring demons to submission, heal blindness, lift the veil from eyes, in order to convince people to follow Christ out of Egypt.

In short, old covenant justification had the benefit of the guardianship of the law, protection and preservation from wrath, but no empowerment to eternal living. New Covenant justification had the empowerment to eternal living.

Point to take away

The old covenant requirements, works of the law, were necessary, to bring believer to the realisation of inadequacy, in order to receive forgiveness, and acceptance as a member of God's family, because they believed God's word, that the requirements were important and necessary, not second guess God, by asking as satan did, "Did God really say...?"

Works of the law could lead to justification, but the justification was the guardianship, protection of the law, not going to hell, like the rich man, but resting in Abraham's bosom, like Lazarus, until Christ released him.

Works of the law could not lead to receiving the Spirit, and justification, protection against the efforts of the world to take you back to Egypt. Works of the law could not seat you in high places, with Christ. Believers have the mind of Christ. Out of their inner beings flow streams of living water, words of eternal life. They have the ministry of Moses, of leading God's lost sheep out of Egypt, even the demons submit to them. They should however be happy not because of the latter, but because, like Moses, their names are written in the Book of Life Givers.

Works of Law cannot lead to sanctification, becoming unblemished sacrifices, having the qualification to share in the ministry of Christ, becoming the righteousness of God, becoming sin bearers, sharing in His affliction and making up what remains of His work, toward a better resurrection.

Those who turn back to the works of the law are turning back to a defunct covenant. They are trampling on the new covenant, saying the kingdom is not amongst us, but is yet to come. By observing Sabbath, continuing in works of the law, they are saying the rest has not been given, the rest from our own works.

Hebrews 4:10For the one who enters God's rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his works.


The point is that the new man died to the Law just as the wife broke away from the marriage when the old humanity died, in Christ. He was qualified to represent all humanity, just as Adam was qualified to represent all humanity. Christ is our kinsman redeemer, qualified to redeem.
 
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disciple1

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Galatians 3:6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.


The confusion with justification arises because of another related term, righteousness, which translators fail when trying to convey what it meant in the honor shame societies of the ANE, in the context of the client patron relationship.

Righteousness had the connotation of, not being found moral, but of being found loyal.


Justification in the Old and the New Covenants

Old Covenant

Luke 18: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

What exactly did the Pharisee do wrong?

The Pharisees did NOT obey the law. They rationalized that since the promise to Abraham was unconditional, all a person had to do to receive the promise was to be born a Jew. To distinguish themselves as Jews they followed the part of the law that identified them as Jews. They observed the rituals, read out loud from the law. They left out justice, mercy and faithfulness to be the image of God.

Luke 11:42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

Romans 2:13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God,
but the doers of the law who will be justified.

What did the publican do right? He confessed he was a sinner. Obviously you can't confess your inadequacy unless you try to do good things, and fail. And then you find out that you need God to forgive you, overlook your inadequacy. Jesus knew that the rich young ruler was not following ALL the law, because no one could follow all the law. Different people have different thresholds. Some reach their limit of ability with the ten commandments, some with the 613 precepts. Instead of going through all the requirements, Jesus went to the extreme requirement, to make the young man realise his need for God.

Justification in the old covenant was exaltation, but there is no indication that the publican in the Temple knew he was exalted. Indicating an exaltation in Abraham's bosom, in the afterlife. The temporal life of the publican never changed, he would keep coming back to the Temple and keep asking for forgiveness, chained as he was to a body of death. This is the curse of the law.

However, even though the law killed the ability of the believer to be blessings to the world, because they believed God and attempted to observe all the law, they were exalted in Abraham's bosom, like Lazarus, unlike the rich man who never attempted to follow all the law. When Christ descended to the grave, He released these believers. They were judged, and since they believed God's word, their spirits sit with Him in high places. Since their bodies could not be subdued, these were not resurrected to a resurrection of life, but were discarded. This is why the least in the kingdom of God is greater than the greatest in the old covenant.


New Covenant

Galatians 3:2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

In the New Covenant, the law has been abolished, since it was a part of the old covenant. Adam and His descendants lived in a situation where they knew good and evil, but could not obey God's Law because of the body of death. What was required to complete the old covenant?

The old covenant was a covenant of requirements and benefits. Like all contracts, it required one party to pay and the other party to provide goods or services. Humanity had lost the benefit of being in God's presence because of culpability, knowing good and evil and doing evil. In God's presence, Adam could, by the Holy Spirit subdue creation, subdue his body. This body had sinful thoughts, could think about disobeying God, could disbelieve God's warning, could attribute bad intentions of God's warning to a deprivation of good things by Him, things like withholding the power of being like God. The only reason Adam could be in God's presence was because these sinful thoughts and disbelief were not sin, because Adam did not have critical facilities, the ability to judge, the ability to know good from evil. This is called juvenility, the absence of complete critical ability, the reason minors are not prosecutable under criminal law. In God's presence, Adam could learn obedience, subdue his body, and then God would have allowed him to acquire the ability to know good from evil. Away from God's presence because of loss of juvenility and subsequent culpability, humanity was stuck. Thankfully, God sent Christ.

The work for Christ was to get humanity back into God's presence without dying, because they were sinful: Adam's original situation. Christ had to get humanity out of the jurisdiction of the law or protect them from the ill effects of being in God's presence whilst still sinful. He couldn't reverse loss of juvenility. However He could suspend law. Humanity was tied to law. The only way humanity could be untied was by death. Christ's death was the death of the old humanity, just as Adam's creation was the beginning of the first humanity's existence.

Christ's obedience led to redemption of humanity in the form of payment of restitution leading to lifting of a sentence, just as Adam's disobedience was the condemnation of humanity, in the form of the removal of juvenility and the pronouncement and execution of a sentence. One led to the end of the power of the law over humanity, the other had led to the operationalization of the jurisdiction of the law on humanity.

The first fruit of this act of obedience was Christ. His death was nullified and he was raised. Into an existence free of Law.

Those who are baptised into Christ are baptised into His death, losing their membership in the old humanity and share in His resurrection into a new life, the life of living an existence free of Law.

Justification in the new covenant is God recognizing our act of loyalty, obedience to the new command to confess our sin of serving Egypt, in order to love, to serve our fellow men, by becoming a child of Abraham, by believing Jesus is our Deliverer, sent to bring us out of Egypt, salvation being through following Him out of Egypt. In hearing with faith, confessing Christ was Lord, not Caesar, not Egypt, we are recognised as loyal members of God's People, and receive the Holy Spirit, moving from death to eternal living. As opposed to the old covenant of justification of doing the works of the law, confessing our failure, being recognized as loyal member of God's People, and being protected by the guardianship of the law. The curse of the law was to be in the old humanity, with no giving of the Holy Spirit, therefore no moving from death to eternal living, no option to being blessings to the world, able to bring demons to submission, heal blindness, lift the veil from eyes, in order to convince people to follow Christ out of Egypt.

In short, old covenant justification had the benefit of the guardianship of the law, protection and preservation from wrath, but no empowerment to eternal living. New Covenant justification had the empowerment to eternal living.

Point to take away

The old covenant requirements, works of the law, were necessary, to bring believer to the realisation of inadequacy, in order to receive forgiveness, and acceptance as a member of God's family, because they believed God's word, that the requirements were important and necessary, not second guess God, by asking as satan did, "Did God really say...?"

Works of the law could lead to justification, but the justification was the guardianship, protection of the law, not going to hell, like the rich man, but resting in Abraham's bosom, like Lazarus, until Christ released him.

Works of the law could not lead to receiving the Spirit, and justification, protection against the efforts of the world to take you back to Egypt. Works of the law could not seat you in high places, with Christ. Believers have the mind of Christ. Out of their inner beings flow streams of living water, words of eternal life. They have the ministry of Moses, of leading God's lost sheep out of Egypt, even the demons submit to them. They should however be happy not because of the latter, but because, like Moses, their names are written in the Book of Life Givers.

Works of Law cannot lead to sanctification, becoming unblemished sacrifices, having the qualification to share in the ministry of Christ, becoming the righteousness of God, becoming sin bearers, sharing in His affliction and making up what remains of His work, toward a better resurrection.

Those who turn back to the works of the law are turning back to a defunct covenant. They are trampling on the new covenant, saying the kingdom is not amongst us, but is yet to come. By observing Sabbath, continuing in works of the law, they are saying the rest has not been given, the rest from our own works.

Hebrews 4:10For the one who enters God's rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his works.


The point is that the new man died to the Law just as the wife broke away from the marriage when the old humanity died, in Christ. He was qualified to represent all humanity, just as Adam was qualified to represent all humanity. Christ is our kinsman redeemer, qualified to redeem.
Is this what you mean?
Matthew chapter 21



32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness,27 and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors28 and the prostitutes29 did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent30 and believe him.
Luke chapter 3

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.

14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”
 
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