If God is Sovereign how can man be free?

[Mountainmanbob]

 

[Devin P]

My only response, and guess to even attempt to answer this question, is because God knows everything. In a matter of steps, he's infinitely ahead. This is his universe. His rules. There are those that will bear his seed, and those that will bear the seed of the enemy. He knows those that were made for either side. And, the universe is rigged to respond to evil, and good in certain ways. God is so sovereign, and so amazing, that while everyone else is free, just by him being him, his plan still is going to be fulfilled. There are two hosts. That of evil, and that of good. Good will always win in the end, that's how it is, because that's how he's made it. So, even though it seems like all is spinning out of control, he's still in complete control. That's my guess anyway. Who knows though ultimately. Questions he's gonna have to answer on that faithful day.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Questions he's gonna have to answer on that faithful day.

All of our questions I think will be a thing of the past when we are before the One and only Almighty God.
M-Bob

 

[jax5434]

How can anyone who believes in the Sovereign God of scripture believe his sovereignty could be threatened by humanities libertarian free will?
God Bless
Jax

 

[Light of the East]

At 47:06 Sproul begins to run off the rails in the typical Calvinist fashion. Firstly, God has saved everyone. Satan does not win. He does not get one single soul. Romans 5:13-19 talks about the salvation which Christ has achieved for all mankind. All have been redeemed, even if all do not take advantage of it. That is true sovereignty.

Then Sproul goes on to speak about how God intruded in his life without his permission. What he fails to realize is that God's calling is continuous. He does not wait for us to invite Him in, but as the lover of our souls, He calls to every man. woman, and child all the time. Some of us respond quite early in life. Some do not. Does that make God less sovereign that He sovereignly calls and it is up to us to respond. The Calvinist says "yes," meaning that unless God grants to the sinner, who is "dead in trespasses and sins" new life, unasked for by the sinner, the sinner will never come to God. But that is not how relationship works. Relationships of love work on the basis of both giving to each other in freely given mutual affection. It is the rapist who simply takes what he wants without regard for the feeling of the other.

Sproul says "You cannot choose what you do not want." So the question then remains as to whether or not God is making people want Him. And the answer seems to hinge upon the verse in 1 Tim which states that God wills that all come to Him. Not just the elect. Not a few.

ALL!

What we do not see here on earth is the exact time and place that each person comes to want Jesus. For me, it was when I got tired of my sin killing me. The evils that I had so enjoyed for four years in the Hippie Lifestyle were causing me pain, not joy. I was ready to listen, whereas four years earlier, I was not. I think that God allows each of us to discover for ourselves, in various ways and at various times, that He alone is the satisfaction for the longings of the human heart. Calvinists would disagree, stating that God simply animates the "spiritually dead" according to His sovereign choice. This is where I get off with Sproul's message. Either God loves everyone and therefore, according to 1 Tim, desires that all men be saved .... or He doesn't and Calvinism is true. But Sproul is trying to have it both ways - to be both a Calvinist and a Bible-believer (sola scriptura). It doesn't work.

Those are my thoughts, for what they are worth. The talk was interesting, from a philosophical standpoint, and I agree with Sproul's definition regarding autonomy, but the conclusion he comes to - i.e., Calvinism - is the wrong one. Calvinists forget that God is love.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

If all are saved why did Jesus preach more regarding hell than he did regarding heaven for as we have heard it's a wide road to hell and a narrow road to heaven.
M-Bob

 

[Devin P]

At 47:06 Sproul begins to run off the rails in the typical Calvinist fashion. Firstly, God has saved everyone. Satan does not win. He does not get one single soul. Romans 5:13-19 talks about the salvation which Christ has achieved for all mankind. All have been redeemed, even if all do not take advantage of it. That is true sovereignty.

Then Sproul goes on to speak about how God intruded in his life without his permission. What he fails to realize is that God's calling is continuous. He does not wait for us to invite Him in, but as the lover of our souls, He calls to every man. woman, and child all the time. Some of us respond quite early in life. Some do not. Does that make God less sovereign that He sovereignly calls and it is up to us to respond. The Calvinist says "yes," meaning that unless God grants to the sinner, who is "dead in trespasses and sins" new life, unasked for by the sinner, the sinner will never come to God. But that is not how relationship works. Relationships of love work on the basis of both giving to each other in freely given mutual affection. It is the rapist who simply takes what he wants without regard for the feeling of the other.

Sproul says "You cannot choose what you do not want." So the question then remains as to whether or not God is making people want Him. And the answer seems to hinge upon the verse in 1 Tim which states that God wills that all come to Him. Not just the elect. Not a few.

ALL!

What we do not see here on earth is the exact time and place that each person comes to want Jesus. For me, it was when I got tired of my sin killing me. The evils that I had so enjoyed for four years in the Hippie Lifestyle were causing me pain, not joy. I was ready to listen, whereas four years earlier, I was not. I think that God allows each of us to discover for ourselves, in various ways and at various times, that He alone is the satisfaction for the longings of the human heart. Calvinists would disagree, stating that God simply animates the "spiritually dead" according to His sovereign choice. This is where I get off with Sproul's message. Either God loves everyone and therefore, according to 1 Tim, desires that all men be saved .... or He doesn't and Calvinism is true. But Sproul is trying to have it both ways - to be both a Calvinist and a Bible-believer (sola scriptura). It doesn't work.

Those are my thoughts, for what they are worth. The talk was interesting, from a philosophical standpoint, and I agree with Sproul's definition regarding autonomy, but the conclusion he comes to - i.e., Calvinism - is the wrong one. Calvinists forget that God is love.

I don't think that all can be saved. Because, if all could be saved, your idea would be conflicting. You're basically saying that God is so amazing, his will reigns over all else. I definitely agree. But, God is Jesus. God can't lie. M-Bob already touched on this, but Jesus mentioned hell far to often, and the certainty of it for those who were without the law, and or without Him. If what you're saying is true, that's directly calling Jesus a liar, and does away with Jesus being able to have been a savior.

Is smoking crack God's will? Is rape God's will? No.

We all have free will, and can choose to do God's will, or we can choose to ignore it. I think He does will (desire and even actively pursue) the salvation of everyone, but not everyone will accept him. Those that don't accept him, simply cannot enter in. That's from his own word, and he doesn't lie.

 

[Light of the East]

If all are saved why did Jesus preach more regarding hell than he did regarding heaven for as we have heard it's a wide road to hell and a narrow road to heaven.
M-Bob

Let's just let the Scriptures speak:

Rom 5:15

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many (which we know means all) be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (which also means all, just as in the first case)
Rom 5:16

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18

¶
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many (again which must mean all, for all of us were made sinners by one man's disobedience) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (and this also means all) be made righteous.

So why did Jesus warn about the impending Judgment? (He did not warn about "hell," that is a deliberate mistranslation of the Scriptures). Why did He warn people to repent? Because there will be two kinds of people who will be in the presence of God: those who have spent their lives seeking Him and loving Him and desiring to do His will, and those who hate Him, disobey Him, and spent their lives running from Him.

For the first group, the presence of God will be the warm glow of His passionate, immense love which will bless them. For the second, that same love will be absolute torment, a gnashing of teeth and wailing in the presence of the One whom they hate and do not wish to obey nor love.

But the point I was making from Romans is that Satan does not win! Period. No souls does he get, not even one!!!

 

[Light of the East]

One other thing....if man is not free to make the decision to follow and worship God, then God's commands to men, such as "This day I have put before you life and death. Choose life." are about as ridiculous as can be.

The commands from God are given to mankind. Scripture states that God has given to all men the grace necessary to turn to Him and obey Him. Calvinism teaches that all men are "totally depraved," a phrase I fail to find in my Bible (Love how those "sola scriptura" types castigate Catholics for not following the Bible, then make up their own terms which are not found anywhere in the Bible!!!!).

This is the epistomological outcome of Augustines warped anthropology (his view of mankind as a "massa damnata") but not in line with either Scripture or the teachings of the Early Fathers.

 

[Soyeong]

One way to think about it is like a video game. I can predict with perfect accuracy that certain plot points will happen every time you play through the game, but in between those plot points there are all sorts of decisions that you can make such that no two times that you play through the game are exactly identical. So we can still tell our story while being part of God's overarching story.

 

[TheSeabass]

Romans 9:17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

God was sovereign over Pharaoh in showing His power and declaring His name yet God left it up to Pharaoh's free will as to how God would demonstrate His sovereignty in raising up Pharaoh.

 

[Marvin Knox]

God is sovereign in that He predestined to happen everything which happens in His creation.

Man has free will in that his choices are one of the vehicles with which God brings to past some of the things He has predestined to happen.

There is no conflict between the free will of man and the sovereignty of God. The two work hand in hand.

 

[TheSeabass]

God is sovereign in that He predestined to happen everything which happens in His creation.

Man has free will in that his choices are one of the vehicles with which God brings to past some of the things He has predestined to happen.

There is no conflict between the free will of man and the sovereignty of God. The two work hand in hand.

On one hand you post that God "...predestined to happen everything which happens.."

On the other hand you post "Man has free will..."

Both cannot occur at the same time. If God predestined all that happens then man has no free will but can only do what was forced upon him by predestination of God.

You post "Man has free will in that his choices are one of the vehicles with which God brings to past some of the things He has predestined to happen."
This is NOT free will choice. Free will choice is where man has the freedom to choose between 2 or more options. Free will is NOT God forcing men to choose the things God has already predetermined to happen.

 

[sdowney717]

No one is absolutely free in their will, You can only will to do by that which your experiences in life have taught you to desire.
The only ones who have total free will is God.
So our wills are under the sway of another.
God arranged my circumstances to become a Christian. All things work to the good of those who love God, who are the called according to God's purpose. And His will for me was to be a believer in Christ.
And so then I believe.

If God's Holy Spirit teaches you, then He is directing your will to believe in His Son.
Only those who are born again can be taught spiritual truths so that they do actually believe it in their heart.
And God gives the new heart, we do not make in ourselves to have the clean heart.
Christ says it like this,
John 15:3
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

 

[sdowney717]

Paul tells us we are either slaves of sin, or slaves of righteousness.
The concept of freedom of the will is confusing to people who are accustomed to do whatever they desire, a slave may desire something other than what they are, but they have no freedom to be anything other than what they are, unless a greater one sets them free. And we are talking of spiritual realities, not what we are going to wear today.
When Christ says we will be set free, He means to be freed from sin, and adopted into the family of God in Christ. But we then are no longer slaves of sin, we are then slaves of God and righteousness.
Romans 6
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members asslaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I have tried to reconcile the seemingly conflicting ideas in the Bible about choice and destiny. I have not been successful in that endeavor. IMO It is best to act as if one believes God has given us a choice and most comforting to believe God has not. So I choose to do both depending on my motivation. Eventually we will know. IMO Being right on this is not all that important as from what I can tell no one looses salvation by picking the wrong theological position on free will vs predestination.

 

[Marvin Knox]

On one hand you post that God "...predestined to happen everything which happens.."
On the other hand you post "Man has free will..."
Both cannot occur at the same time. If God predestined all that happens then man has no free will but can only do what was forced upon him by predestination of God.
You post "Man has free will in that his choices are one of the vehicles with which God brings to past some of the things He has predestined to happen."
This is NOT free will choice. Free will choice is where man has the freedom to choose between 2 or more options. Free will is NOT God forcing men to choose the things God has already predetermined to happen.

You have said several times that God must "force" a person to make a certain choice if that person is predestined to make that choice. That is simply not true and your saying it is true over and over again does not change that fact.

God has known everything that would happen in history from before there even was a world to have a history. There was absolutely no chance that what God knew would happen in history would not happen. Otherwise it would not be omniscience but a guess on His part.

Since that is true - then whatever happens was absolutely predestined to happen from before the foundation of the world.

That includes every single choice made by those created in God's image and every consequence for that choice.

God didn't force Adam to eat the fruit. God didn't force Christ to obey Him.

God did not force the guy who died by an overdose at the age of 21 to take the drugs which killed him. Yet that guy's days were numbered even before he existed. God's predestination of his life's end did not negate the choices he made.

You can claim otherwise all you want. But it is not logical to claim that predestination negates the will of the creature.

It's just that a creature exists and functions as a creature and God exists and functions as God.

I'm sorry that some Christians seem to want to be both.

 

[HighCherub]

Free will isn't something the Patriarchs, Prophets, or Apostles apparently much cared for.
The whole Bible is generally more focused on God's sovereignty and election.

Job is the oldest book in the Bible and that far back you see a certain language of predestination written within.

'Free will' is most typically an adulteration of any otherwise proper sermon- it's thrown down like a wild card among a pile resembling nothing less than Sovereign Election.
It simply doesn't belong in Christian teaching and there's a long lineage of theology from St. Augustine to John Calvin that supports just that.

 

[TheSeabass]

You have said several times that God must "force" a person to make a certain choice if that person is predestined to make that choice. That is simply not true and your saying it is true over and over again does not change that fact.

If God predetermined that a person do "x" then that person will do "x" and had no choice of his own in doing or not doing "x" for God decided for that person. That person is forced to do "x" for not doing "x" isn't an option. Therefore there is not free will for man is such a scenario.

God has known everything that would happen in history from before there even was a world to have a history. There was absolutely no chance that what God knew would happen in history would not happen. Otherwise it would not be omniscience but a guess on His part.

Since that is true - then whatever happens was absolutely predestined to happen from before the foundation of the world.

That includes every single choice made by those created in God's image and every consequence for that choice.

God didn't force Adam to eat the fruit. God didn't force Christ to obey Him.

God did not force the guy who died by an overdose at the age of 21 to take the drugs which killed him. Yet that guy's days were numbered even before he existed. God's predestination of his life's end did not negate the choices he made.

You can claim otherwise all you want. But it is not logical to claim that predestination negates the will of the creature.

It's just that a creature exists and functions as a creature and God exists and functions as God.

I'm sorry that some Christians seem to want to be both.

You posted earlier that God has "predestined to happen everything which happens in His creation."
Therefore God did FORCE the man to overdose for the man had no other choice other than do what was forced upon him by God. If God predetermined he would overdoes, under what scenario could he have NOT overdosed? None for it was forced. You're having difficulty with logic on this issue. You cannot have it both ways in claiming God predetermined it to happen but the man had a choice in it.

 

[TheSeabass]

Free will isn't something the Patriarchs, Prophets, or Apostles apparently much cared for.
The whole Bible is generally more focused on God's sovereignty and election.

Job is the oldest book in the Bible and that far back you see a certain language of predestination written within.

'Free will' is most typically an adulteration of any otherwise proper sermon- it's thrown down like a wild card among a pile resembling nothing less than Sovereign Election.
It simply doesn't belong in Christian teaching and there's a long lineage of theology from St. Augustine to John Calvin that supports just that.

Mt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

A verse that shows the free will of man where man chose against what Christ "would" but man "would not".

If these Jews were predestined by God to be saved, then why did they reject Christ?
If these Jews were predestined by God to be lost, then why was Jesus desire they be saved?

Obviously Calvinistic predestination does not fit the verse for the verse shows free will at work in those Jews denying what Christ desired of them.