If evolution is true

[inquiring mind]

God(s) has nothing to do with it.

Through scientific analysis there is thought to be a point when physical laws did not exist, not even a where or when, an infinitely small space, nothingness... it seems to me God is shouting to you.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Through scientific analysis there is thought to be a point when physical laws did not exist, not even a where or when, an infinitely small space, nothingness... it seems to me God is shouting to you.

It seems to you, maybe. But if you want to include God in science, you need evidence of God. As in actual, testable, scientific evidence. You don't have that.

 

[Shemjaza]

Because physical laws start breaking down. You guys should think about it from that angle, instead of automatically denying that God exists.

I don't deny it, I just don't assume it.

Incredibly old and vast structure of enormous burning suns and galaxies doesn't lend itself to me accepting an individual religious interpretation that is entirely based around humans on one planet.

The expansion of the big bang has evidence, so I accept that.

The supernatural in general and God in particular do not have evidence so I don't accept them.

How does it not allow it?

As I said before the universe is full of evidence for events... these events require billions of years to occur. There being different perspectives on the speed of time doesn't change those billions of years of events.

 

[VirOptimus]

Through scientific analysis there is thought to be a point when physical laws did not exist, not even a where or when, an infinitely small space, nothingness... it seems to me God is shouting to you.

You want to preach there are subfora for that, this isnt one of them.

 

[inquiring mind]

As I said before the universe is full of evidence for events... these events require billions of years to occur. There being different perspectives on the speed of time doesn't change those billions of years of events.

So, it sounds like you're also saying that what we see is not necessarily what we measure.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

No, it's not understandable... your statement without understanding is meaningless.

No, it's just Special Relativity, or, if you want to involve gravity, General Relativity.

As I said before, when time itself is the measure, supposed variations in the rate of time at different periods of time are meaningless. For any given observer or clock at any period in the history of the universe, time passes at one second per second by definition; it is only meaningful to talk of different rates of time when directly comparing clocks (strictly speaking, co-located clocks, as in the Twin Paradox).

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Because physical laws start breaking down. You guys should think about it from that angle, instead of automatically denying that God exists.

Physical laws are descriptive not prescriptive. What 'physical laws break down' means is that our normal mathematical descriptions of what is happening no longer work. IOW, our model of how the universe works fails to describe that regime. We just need a better model.

An analogy would be if you had a speed gun that measured up to 100 mph and a car went past at 150 mph. For an analogue gun, the needle would hit the stop at '100 mph', for a digital gun you'd get an 'Out of range' error message.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Through scientific analysis there is thought to be a point when physical laws did not exist, not even a where or when, an infinitely small space, nothingness... it seems to me God is shouting to you.

No. There was a time before which our familiar descriptions of how the universe works (the physical laws) didn't apply. We need a better description. Physicists know this when their calculations produce infinities like singularities; the same thing happens with the singularities in black holes - they're an indication of a regime that our current physics can't describe.

Until you understand what these things really mean, it's irrelevant who or what seems to you to be shouting.

 

[inquiring mind]

No. There was a time before which our familiar descriptions of how the universe works (the physical laws) didn't apply. We need a better description. Physicists know this when their calculations produce infinities like singularities; the same thing happens with the singularities in black holes - they're an indication of a regime that our current physics can't describe.

Until you understand what these things really mean, it's irrelevant who or what seems to you to be shouting.

You're never going to understand... I wish you would really think about what you just said.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You're never going to understand... I wish you would really think about what you just said.

I did think about it - and my explanation is what physicists and cosmologists who work in this area are saying.

The "you're never going to understand" gambit is a common but lame believer's ploy. If you think you understand it, you should be able to explain it to me. As the old saying goes, "If you can't explain it to [a 6 year-old/your grandma/an undergraduate], you don't understand it yourself."

 

[inquiring mind]

The "you're never going to understand" gambit is a common but lame believer's ploy.

That still holds true.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

That still holds true.

Why did you leave out the part we he points out, if you think you understand it, you should be able to explain it to us?

 

[inquiring mind]

Why did you leave out the part we he points out, if you think you understand it, you should be able to explain it to us?

Hasn't my whole argument been that we don't understand???

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Why did you leave out the part we he points out, if you think you understand it, you should be able to explain it to us?

It's just another all-purpose last resort in the absence of a rational argument, like 'God works in mysterious ways'.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Hasn't my whole argument been that we don't understand???

Your argument was based on a misunderstanding of the science.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Hasn't my whole argument been that we don't understand???

Except that you are the only one who has been acting like they understand.

 

[inquiring mind]

Except that you are the only one who has been acting like they understand.

Well, I don't. I'm just confused why you guys deny the possibility when none of us understand.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Well, I don't. I'm just confused why you guys deny the possibility when none of us understand.

We don't deny the possibility. We deny the absolute statements you make without evidence.

 

[inquiring mind]

Your argument was based on a misunderstanding of the science.

No my argument is based on God being our creator.

 

[VirOptimus]

No my argument is based on God being our creator.

Thats religion, not science.