If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

[ClementofA]

Yours is a a meaningless convoluted argument which relies on out-of-context proof texts so contrived as to appear to support the false doctrine of Universalism. A person who has never sinned does not need to be born from above or baptized. Baptism is "the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Which should i believe, your teaching or Jesus':

"Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." " (Jn.3:3)

Babies who died weren't born of the Spirit in their mortal life. They can't enter the kingdom of God till they are born of the Spirit.

"Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit." (Jn.3:6).Babies were born of the flesh, and died without being born of the Spirit.

If there is no salvation (being born again) after death, then how do those who died as babies or children get saved?

Do they at some point get to hear the gospel in the afterlife & make a choice for or against Christ?

Or is salvation forced upon them by irresistible grace?

If so, then wouldn't it be a great blessing to have been aborted & thereby avoid any risk of endless hell? Wouldn't it be doing them a favor to have an abortion? Clearly that can't be true. Evidently babies who die are not immediately forced into heaven without a choice and without being first saved or born of the Spirit.

Therefore, though many deny it is possible, there must be after death salvation.


Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

A sin nature is certainly something that "defileth" (Rev.21:27). Can babies with a sin nature enter heaven? No, a sin nature won't be allowed into heaven. They'll have to be saved from it first. Since that doesn't happen before they die as infants, it will have to be an - after death salvation - something which many deny is possible.

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[SolomonVII]

To be a Christian is to first and foremost believe in life, even with all of its vagaries.
To really, really believe in life is to also believe that it is worth any amount of suffering and pain.
That is a hard lesson that not many people are willing to contemplate.

 

[1an]

Just a personal opinion for what it is worth. While it is true we are all born with the ability to sin, I have never known a baby to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, or break any of God's commandments. For that reason I do not believe there will be any babies in hell.
Love to all. God bless.

 

[zelosravioli]

"If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven, then infanticide saves infants from any chance of growing up & going to endless torments or annihilation" (OP)
First, I believe that the endless(aionios) punishment(kolasis) teaching is a terrible interpretation (if not senseless).

Scripture speaks of a complete 'destruction' of the sinner over 70 times, while the three NT references to eternal fire/penalty speak of the 'finality' of death (death is the punishment for sin), and the eternal 'fire' of Gods 'justice and righteousness' - not a conscious eternal torture of humans.
So, I believe there is a final judgment, and then some will be punished to various degrees, but all unrepentant sinners will eventually be destroyed (annihilated).

So then I believe unless a person is raised back up for the final judgment, they just remain 'dead' or 'gone' (scripture speaks of this sense of death also). Children under the age of accountability would not likely be raised for 'judgment' they would either 'not be raised' at all, or be as Jesus says - like the angels (whatever that means).

I agree, it seems odd to have a specific split second age of accountability. Rather, I believe God just knows each persons thoughts, maturity, and so God can make a Judgment on what He deems fair for each and every person.

Which ever way, I believe God is fair, and will make the best decisions for what will be eternity.

 

[SolomonVII]

Just a personal opinion for what it is worth. While it is true we are all born with the ability to sin, I have never known a baby to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, or break any of God's commandments. For that reason I do not believe there will be any babies in hell.
Love to all. God bless.

Babies are not really all that self-conscious. To be capable of evil, one must recognize oneself as uniquely vulnerable, and uniquely able to be hurt, and then use that knowledge to surmise that what hurts our own self must be able to hurt others equally well.
Then, to be truly evil one must act with malice and foresight and actually hurt others through that understanding that what causes us pain will be very good to cause pain in other beings.
Babies have trouble with boundaries and are for the most unaware of where the boundaries of their self ends, and where the boundaries of the outside world begin. Babies are selfish in that regard, only aware of their own needs, as well they must be in order to survive in the state of utter dependency in which they exist.
I think that babies are very capable of love right from the very beginning though. It sure seems to me that they must be filled with love right from first contact anyway, and therefore capable of inspiring love in even the most wizened and cynical adult that they may come into contact with.

 

[1an]

Babies are not really all that self-conscious. To be capable of evil, one must recognize oneself as uniquely vulnerable, and uniquely able to be hurt, and then use that knowledge to surmise that what hurts our own self must be able to hurt others equally well.
Then, to be truly evil one must act with malice and foresight and actually hurt others through that understanding that what causes us pain will be very good to cause pain in other beings.
Babies have trouble with boundaries and are for the most unaware of where the boundaries of their self ends, and where the boundaries of the outside world begin. Babies are selfish in that regard, only aware of their own needs, as well they must be in order to survive in the state of utter dependency in which they exist.
I think that babies are very capable of love right from the very beginning though. It sure seems to me that they must be filled with love right from first contact anyway, and therefore capable of inspiring love in even the most wizened and cynical adult that they may come into contact with.

Jesus made a promise for all time to all people whose hearts are like the hearts of little children, when He said:

Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me:
for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 19:14 KJV)​

.

 

[1an]

Double post.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

Just a personal opinion for what it is worth. While it is true we are all born with the ability to sin, I have never known a baby to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, or break any of God's commandments. For that reason I do not believe there will be any babies in hell.
Love to all. God bless.

Same . I dont think I could support or believe in a God that would throw a baby that cant speak , to confess Jesus as Lord , into he'll. That would be messed up.. However, I just dont believe God would do something like that...his mercy and grace is far too deep for that.

 

[1an]

Same . I dont think I could support or believe in a God that would throw a baby that cant speak , to confess Jesus as Lord , into he'll. That would be messed up.. However, I just dont believe God would do something like that...his mercy and grace is far too deep for that.

He died in our place so that we might have eternal life. Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart. (Psa 73:1 KJV)
.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

And where there is no law, there is no sin.

There had to be law before the sin of EVE in the Garden of Eden. (disobedience)
There had to be law before Cain killed his Brother Abel. (murder)
1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[Der Alte]

There had to be law before the sin of EVE in the Garden of Eden. (disobedience)
There had to be law before Cain killed his Brother Abel. (murder)
1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

There was law when Cain killed Abel and when Adam and Eve disobeyed, the spoken word of God. But how does this address Romans 4:15 and Romans 5:13?

 

[SolomonVII]

Jesus made a promise for all time to all people whose hearts are like the hearts of little children, when He said:

Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me:
for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 19:14 KJV)​

.

Makes sense, eh?
I think my answer fits in with that quite well.

 

[Noxot]

swedenborg said that babies that died are raised by people in heaven. I suspect that God would have those kinds of spirit sometimes experience this world by being closer than usual to the people of the world. it would help them in some ways I think because there are important elements of this world that are good for souls to have. i'm sure there are also earth-like simulations for them to be able to not be so coerced by all the blessings of heaven. heck part of the blessing is that we would not be fully compelled by the joys of heaven, which itself is a joy.

angels can go into states of ignorance which can be very useful for them. I think this actually occurred in Philip K. Dick because he had a time in his life where he had some brain trauma and he was for a while a completely different person. I suspect that an angel was acting as him for a time until he could recover himself aright. imo God can get pretty creative and weird.

it's a fact that various spirits influence all of us and help each of us to become what we are and so it's not far fetched to think that we influence them as well, which makes how we are that much more important.

 

[ClementofA]

Jesus made a promise for all time to all people whose hearts are like the hearts of little children, when He said:

Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me:
for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 19:14 KJV)​

.

Matthew 19:14, speaks of "little children", not babies (born or preborn).

The apostle Paul, & earlier in Matthew Jesus, puts the statement of Mt.19:14 in proper perspective:

1 Corinthians 14:20
Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

Matthew 18:3
"Truly I tell you," He said, "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

"In Mark and Luke it is said he immediately added, "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter therein." Whosoever shall not be humble, unambitious, and docile, shall not be a true follower of Christ or a member of his kingdom. Of such as these - that is, of persons with such tempers as these - is the church to be composed. He does not say of those infants, but of such persons as resemble them, or are like them in temper, is the kingdom of heaven made up. As emblematic, therefore, of what his own followers were to be, and as having traits of character so strongly resembling what he required in his followers..."

"...All are fallen; all have, a tendency to sin, and none but Jesus can save them. Little children, too..."

"... it does not appear to be the design of this passage to teach that all infants will be saved. It means simply that they should be suffered to be brought to Christ as amiable, lovely, and uncorrupted by the world; as having traits of mind resembling those among real Christians; and as themselves needing his blessing."

"...for of such is the kingdom of heaven; that is, as the Syriac renders it, "who are as these" or as the Persic version, rather paraphrasing than translating, renders it, "who have been humble as these little children": and it is as if our Lord should say, do not drive away these children from my person and presence; they are lively emblems of the proper subjects of a Gospel church state, and of such that shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: by these I may instruct and point out to you, what converted persons should be, who have a place in my church below, and expect to enter into my kingdom and glory above; that they are, or ought to be, like such children, harmless and inoffensive; free from rancour and malice, meek, modest, and humble; without pride, self-conceit, and ambitious views, and desires of grandeur and superiority."

Matthew 19:14 Commentaries: But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

As to babies & little children entering the Kingdom of God:

"Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." " (Jn.3:3)

Babies who died weren't born of the Spirit in their mortal life. They can't enter the kingdom of God till they are born of the Spirit.

"Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit." (Jn.3:6).Babies were born of the flesh, and died without being born of the Spirit.

If there is no salvation (being born again) after death, then how do those who died as babies or children get saved?

Do they at some point get to hear the gospel in the afterlife & make a choice for or against Christ?

Or is salvation forced upon them by irresistible grace?

If so, then wouldn't it be a great blessing to have been aborted & thereby avoid any risk of endless hell? Wouldn't it be doing them a favor to have an abortion? Clearly that can't be true.

Evidently babies who die are not immediately forced into heaven without a choice and without being first saved or born of the Spirit.

Therefore, though many deny it is possible, there must be after death salvation.

Some other Scriptures to consider re infants who die as such:

"The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world." (Jn.1:9)

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (Jn.12:32)

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." (Rev.21:7).

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. (Rev.21:27)

 

[Monk Brendan]

Should a loving parent, therefore, kill their infants before they reach an age at which God would hold them accountable?

You've got to be joking! Killing children at any time is WRONG! It makes no difference if it is out of the mother's womb or still inside. Although for some reason, killing a baby inside the mother is called "abortion" and is legal, where killing a baby outside the mother is called MURDER, and it is illegal.

 

[zelosravioli]

Monk, the OP was a philosophical hypothetical, and the OP recognizes the sin of killing.
The 'question' was - yet wouldn't the childrens death assure that 'the children' go to heaven (or, gain ever lasting life) and 'avoid the white throne judgment' like adults will face?

(The fate of the parent/killer is not the question)

 

[1an]

Matthew 19:14, speaks of "little children", not babies (born or preborn).

The apostle Paul, & earlier in Matthew Jesus, puts the statement of Mt.19:14 in proper perspective:

1 Corinthians 14:20
Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

Matthew 18:3
"Truly I tell you," He said, "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

So, what are you saying in one or two sentences?

 

[ClementofA]

Do demon possessed babies and children who die go to heaven with the demons still inside them?

Or do they need to be saved after death from these demons before they are allowed into heaven?

 

[Noxot]

if there is such thing as the preexistence of souls and a demon became a baby human but was aborted or something like that then I suspect that it was already on it's path of repentance and thus God will like always act towards us how we ourselves wish to be.

as far as I know there are no demons in a person in the world of spirits, it would be more correct to say that you are around such things. if they are still capable of sometimes hijacking the bodies of people then I would say when their flesh is gone that this is not possible. although manipulation of souls is a thing in the other world, it depends on those people trusting in such kinds of spirits which already in some degree makes them like one another or to at least have some kind of relation to one another.

the manipulation of our spirits by others in the world of spirit is one reason i'm very serious about getting how God is right because trusting in doctrines of demons can lead one deeper and deeper into hell. i'm sure there are pockets of hell that appear to some souls as heaven that is in reality not a real heaven at all. I can't think of a greater curse than calling good evil and evil good.

 

[1an]

Do demon possessed babies and children who die go to heaven with the demons still inside them?

Or do they need to be saved after death from these demons before they are allowed into heaven?

I always thought babies were born a 'blank canvas' and we choose the way we go as we get older, so I do not feel able to comment, sorry.