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Featured If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven, then infanticide saves infants from any chance of growing up & going to endless torments or annihilation.

    Should a loving parent, therefore, kill their infants before they reach an age at which God would hold them accountable?

    "Evangelicals are divided in their opinion about the fate of infants who die.

    "Some, who believe in God's sovereign election of the "few," also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. John Calvin said, "there are babies a span long in hell."

    "Others consider this unfair, and assert that infants who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It's true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.

    "A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in a bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.

    "The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that if Arminianism is right, her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.

    "Apparently, many Christians believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this the "age of accountability."

    "If I believed this nonsense I would take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and, before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?

    "Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong ("thou shalt not kill"). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the eternal salvation of the babies. If Arminianism is right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls." Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause. Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life revelling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.

    "Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save every one of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say, "I have saved myself from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God's provision. God will get all of the glory for everyone's salvation.

    "The important issue never should be "what is right or what is wrong." The only really important issue is, "What is God going to do with the person who is wrong?" The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my Dad often says, "That's what makes Him God!" "

    Can Children Go to Hell?
     
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  2. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Catholic Church taught for many centuries that the unbaptized babies go to Limbo, even if the Church never taught such in an authoritative/infallible manner. While the RCC does not talk about Limbo much anymore, it's possible existence has not been denied. Limbo has always been thought to be a pretty good place, but not as nice as Heaven.
     
  3. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi clement,

    Just a small matter of meaning. It's not endless 'punishment'. It's endless 'torment'.

    Punishment is generally something that someone does to you. Torment can be self-inflicted.

    God bless
    In Christ, ted
     
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  4. drjean

    drjean Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hmm which topic did you wish to discuss again?

    You, nor I, are God and therefore must not take His power of killing whom we deem necessary...those are truly thoughts of an unstable person. Jesus loves children and demanded the apostles let them go to Him. If they're dead, they can't choose to know God's love. (It wouldn't be children I'd rid the world of, believe me, if I had that power! There'd be < poof > <poof > all over the place!)

    and

    What would you do with Jesus' words: depart from me you who work iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU?
     
  5. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member

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    Hell is eturnal separation from God. A fate that Jesus came to save believers from.

    But what evidence do you have that children/intfants etc go to heaven?
    The bible is silent on this subject.

    All we really know for sure is that the Judge of the whole Earth will do that which is right.
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The Bible is not exactly silent on the fate of infants, the mentally challenged etc.
    Romans 4:15
    (15) because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
    Romans 5:13
    (13) To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law.
     
  7. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    According to Jesus, eternal life is for righteous. I can’t be sure that all children are righteous, therefore I can’t say they don’t go to hell.

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Romans 6:23
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's clear those not born again aren't getting into the kingdom of God (Jn.3:3-8). Are babies born again?
     
  9. Dawnhammer

    Dawnhammer Well-Known Member

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    Bit cheesy way out instead of making a ruling.

    Since Catholic Church can’t teach an error why not rule one way or another and by their logic it would be correct in any case no matter what they ruled.

    Unless they were afraid to make mistake of course which by their own policy isn’t possible.

    Can some Catholic explain this ?
     
  10. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would attempt to explain, but since you rightfully asked for a Catholic to respond, I will pass. The answer is a little complex anyway.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    ISV Joh 3:3
    (3) Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless a person is born from above [ἄνωθεν] he cannot see the kingdom of God."

    G509 ἄνωθεν anōthen
    an'-o-then
    From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.
    Romans 4:15
    (15) for the Law produces wrath. Now where there is no Law, neither can there be any violation of it.
    Romans 5:13
    (13) Certainly sin was in the world before the Law was given, but no record of sin is kept when there is no Law.
    The wages of sin is death. God does not punish if there is no sin.
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do babies have a sin nature?

    So how will babies get into the kingdom of God/heaven without being born again?

    It's clear those not born again aren't getting into the kingdom of God (Jn.3:3-8).

    Are babies born again? No.

    Those not born again are not saved. Babies are not born again. So they are not saved.

    To get into heaven, they will have to experience - after death salvation - something which many deny possible. For they were not saved before they died as babies.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I quoted scripture, you give me unsupported opinion. When was Elijah "born from above" not "born again."
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    John 3:3-8 is "unsupported opinion"?

    Do you not know any scriptures re man's sin nature? I can give you scripture if you need help. Is a sin nature going to get into heaven?

    Will unbelievers be allowed into the New Jerusalem?

    Did babies confess Jesus as Lord before they died?
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The wages of "sin" is death. Not "The wages of a sin nature." And where there is no law, there is no sin.
    Revelation 21:27
    (27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
    Infants have committed no sins.

     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    A sin nature is certainly something that "defileth" (Rev.21:27). Can babies with a sin nature enter heaven? No, a sin nature won't be allowed into heaven. They'll have to be saved from it first. Since that doesn't happen before they die as infants, it will have to be an - after death salvation - something which many deny is possible.

    "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." (Rev.21:7). Babies who died weren't overcomers in their mortal life.

    "Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." " (Jn.3:3). Babies who died weren't born again in their mortal life. They can't see the kingdom of God till they are born again.

    "Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (Jn.3:5). Babies who died weren't born of the Spirit in their mortal life. They can't enter the kingdom of God till they are born of the Spirit.

    "Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit." (Jn.3:6).Babies were born of the flesh, and died without being born of the Spirit. You MUST be born again!

    "You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' " (Jn.3:7). That's the 3rd time Jesus says it in a few verses, in case you have any doubts.

    Will unbelievers be allowed into the New Jerusalem?

    Did babies confess Jesus as Lord before they died?

    "The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world." (Jn.1:9)

    Does Christ Himself "enlighten" (Jn.1:9) every human while they were alive in this life? Babies too?

    "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (Jn.12:32)

    When does the Lord Jesus draw dead babies to Himself (Jn.12:32)? Before or after death?

    If there is no salvation (being born again) after death, then how do those who died as babies or children get saved?

    Do they at some point get to hear the gospel in the afterlife & make a choice for or against Christ?

    Or is salvation forced upon them by irresistible grace?

    If so, then wouldn't it be a great blessing to have been aborted & thereby avoid any risk of endless hell? Wouldn't you be doing them a favor to have an abortion? Clearly that can't be true. So babies who die don't go straight to heaven.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  17. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    I typically see this question not from Christians, but from non-Christians who are trolling forums. So this should be easy to address with another Christian.

    First and foremost, Scripture is not crystal clear on what the eternal destiny is of those who die prior to an ability to recognize their own sin and ask forgiveness. This would include all human beings before age X (X is subjective based upon the individual), as well as severely handicapped. The answer is we don't know. We can make arguments and cases based upon the character and nature of God. But Scripture is not concretely clear on this issue.

    Now, as for the whole troll line of reasoning about how it would actually be the loving thing to do - murder innocent children to assure their Salvation - this shows a gross attitude towards sin. We, as Christians, are called first and foremost to put Christ first. We are called to die to our flesh, to die to sin, and strive to be perfect as Christ was perfect. Murdering innocent children, no matter what the reason is, is sin. Sin is the reason that Christ died on the cross for you.

    We are even told that our love for Christ should be so great that when compared to the love for our own family that it looks like we hate our family. Sinning by killing innocent children for ANY reason does not display the love that Christ calls us to have for Him.

    So the answer is simple, if you love Christ, then you will strive to become more like Him. Your love for Christ will supersede your love for anything earthly. Intentionally sinning, for whatever reason, morally wrong.
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    God does not punish "sin natures." God punishes those who actually can and do commit sins. Twice in God's word it says where there is no law there is no sin. Infants can't even understand yes and no. All you are doing is yanking a bunch of scripture out-of-context trying to prove Universalism.
     
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  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Yours is a a meaningless convoluted argument which relies on out-of-context proof texts so contrived as to appear to support the false doctrine of Universalism. A person who has never sinned does not need to be born from above or baptized. Baptism is "the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
     
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