I asked:
And if, as you allege God "is certainly capable of working toward any goals He may have, and is indeed capable of overcoming any obstacles in His way", why is there an expiry date (a human's time of death) on His love & desire to save all?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Because it would be unfair to give everyone more chances after death to accept Him.
Unfair to who? Will those in heaven feel it's unfair if those in hell, after suffering torments in hell & thereafter finding salvation in the Savior, are welcomed into heaven? Should Christians be bitter & cry about that? No doubt many eternal tormentists would answer "yes". Which brings to mind a parable Jesus spoke:
Luke 15:25Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. 26And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 27And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 28And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. 29And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 30But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 31And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
I posted:
Please provide Scripture that says Adam’s relationship with God was “perfect, and very good”.
OTOH there is this viewpoint:
https://www.concordant.org/expositi...ments-god-contents/part-one-6-knowledge-good/
Is there any hint at all of Adam praising, worshipping or appreciating God for anything, let alone a love that would be incarnated, suffer living a perfect life & be crucified for His creatures?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. - Genesis 1:31
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:31&version=NKJV
A newborn baby could be described as "very good". It doesn't logically follow that your relationship with that baby is on the same level as with an adult or mature human being. Compared to the latter the relationship with the baby is quite imperfect. What parent would be satisfied if the relationship remained at the baby level forever.
Nothing in Gen.1:31 says Adam & Eve even had a relationship with God, let alone a relationship you described as "perfect, and very good" and as "They would have had the same kind of relationship that those who will exist with Him for all eternity will have with Him (if slightly different in that we will have already chosen to be with Him, and wouldn’t even consider rejecting Him)".
Without having a knowledge of good & evil, since they had not partaken of that tree, how would they know that God was good? Or how would they know what good is, since they had nothing - no evil - to contrast it with? So how could they thank or praise Him for His goodness?
Consider this opinion:
"In 11:32, 36, Paul does not consider the Fall from the perspective of our willful disobedience, but from the perspective of God’s providential plan in which humanity is imprisoned and about which humanity therefore has no choice. In this respect, it is important to note that only the Fall empowers humanity to become “godlike” and thus to be able to discern the difference between good and evil (Genesis 3:22). Do you actually believe that God would have preferred Adam and Eve not to become godlike and not to be capable of discerning good from evil?"
" “God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).” Here Paul considers the Fall from the perspective that it was always God’s plan to imprison us with a fallen nature that would make us disobey Him. Most Christians assume that God wanted Adam and Eve to resist the forbidden fruit, but this assumption implies that God didn’t want them to become “like God” and to become capable of discerning good from evil (Genesis 3:22). How, then, can God be just if our sinful nature is guaranteed by divine decree? Because God’s purpose is that all of us ultimately benefit from His mercy and grace!"
I posted:
Is there any hint at all of Adam praising, worshipping or appreciating God for anything, let alone a love that would be incarnated, suffer living a perfect life & be crucified for His creatures?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
I'm not sure what your point is here, could you clarify?
The point is there is no hint in Genesis of Adam & Eve having a spiritual relationship with God. Not, at least, until after the fall.
I posted:
I don't see how your comments on my following quote addressed the cutoff "point" issue in relation to God's omipotentce. Who establishes this cutoff "point" at death at which point Love Omnipotent
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
At this point, I'm going to call your use of "omnipotent" here question begging, because Scripture does not say God has all power, it says he delegates authority (power) to certain entities within His creation. God is infinitely powerful, of course, but that doesn't mean He has all power.
Your objection seems trivial & inconsequential, but I'll rephrase my question:
I don't see how your comments on my following quote addressed the cutoff "point" issue in relation to God's infinite power. Who establishes this cutoff "point" at death at which point Love Almighty suddenly becomes impotent to save anyone who died in their sins:
In particular the idea that God created man so foolishly that in just within a few years or a mere human mortal lifespan premortem he can reach a point where Love Omnipotent is impotent & helpless to save the men He created & must therefore allow them to be tormented endlessly.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
It's because they died rejecting Him that God cannot save them.
Why is that? Has Love Omnipotent lost His power to save after a person's death? Does death somehow freeze a person's soul so that it can no longer change? Does God's goodness, mercy & love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
He is not the God of injustice, but of justice.
It would be unjust to allow someone who died rejecting Him, unforgiven, to live with Him forever.
Is there an expiry date when God no longer has any forgiveness to give, even if someone repented postmortem?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
If someone dies without accepting God's gift, then the only alternative is death, separation from God.
What of those who never believed while alive, but would have believed if they had heard the gospel? Will they fry forever or be saved postmortem?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Calling God a fool isn't going to bode well for you on Judgment day.
I was referring to a false god & the foolish way it made human beings:
In particular the idea that God created man so foolishly that in just within a few years or a mere human mortal lifespan premortem he can reach a point where Love Omnipotent is impotent & helpless to save the men He created & must therefore allow them to be tormented endlessly.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
God can only do so much, but He can't make the decision to accept Christ for man. Man is the only one who can make that decision.
What's stopping him from making a decision for Christ postmortem?
Will aborted babies be given the choice to make a choice for, or against, Christ postmortem? Or will they be forced into heaven whether they want to or not, whether born again or not, with or without their sinful nature, & with or without demons possessing them?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Again, there's only so much God can do.
What's stopping Him from offering salvation to those in hell?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
As I stated before, to create something that lasts for eternity, it must be indestructible. And if it is indestructible, then God Himself cannot destroy it, because then it would be destructible, and not indestructible, and would therefore not last for eternity.
That argument fails since the soul doesn't need to be indestructible to last for eternity. So the objection still remains as to why a loving God would make human souls indestructible if he knew that many (or any) human would (or might) then end up in endless torments. If He were a wise & loving, instead of a stupid & foolish creator, he would have made them destructible. Then, instead of being forced to let humans suffer endless torments, he could have mercy on them & annihilate them out of existence, so they wouldn't have to suffer forever.
Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God."
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
So no, God is unable to annihilate any man. Which ties in with what Jesus said in Gethsemane: "if there be any other way, let this cup pass; but if there is no other way, Father, Your will be done."
You haven't established any logical connection between the two.
Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God ALL is possible.
Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God."
I posted re postmortem salvation:
He can seek the abusing sheep till He find him. Then those sheep can be reconciled with those other sinners that they abused & live happily ever after. He is not impotent like human beings are who are incapable of resolving such issues as you describe. You lower Love Omnipotent to the level of weak, impotent & powerless human beings.
I also asked:
Why would Love Omnipotent tell people to depart into what He knows will be endless torments with no hope of salvation for all eternity? Why not say to them, instead, Come to Me, all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest?
That's no reason why He makes death a cutoff. Does God's love expire like a carton of milk?
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Do you remember what happened when God showed Pharaoh in Egypt those miracles? Do you remember what happened to Pharaoh?
Do you have a point to make?
I posted:
What if when He tells them to depart that they don't want to? Isn't it your position that God will not force people like a rapist?
Except in my view when people truly repent & receive salvation postmortem they are saved.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Except that's not what scripture says:
Already addressed in a separate post. Moreover, i was addressing your assumptions & logical arguments related to your theory that the garden of Eden account refutes universalism. Which, BTW, you've failed to prove.
I posted:
But in your view Love Omnipotent's love has expired on them & they are shipped off to endless torments, whether they want to or not. IOW, you're making God the rapist you described.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Except I'm not, nor did God's love "expire."
Then what will keep Him from evangelizing those in hell? His impotence?
Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son. (Gen.18:14)
Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God ALL is possible.
Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God."
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
God still loves those who died rejecting Him.
He doesn't love them, since he foolishly made them indestructible & capable of, & with a high chance for, suffering indestructible endless torments. Moreover, He does nothing to evangelize them in hell, but leaves them alone to rot & suffer there forever. Which is a long, long time to suffer. Truly such a god is the opposite of loving. And insane.
I posted:
Once again your God is the rapist, forcing people away from him who don't want to be.
JudgeRightly;5267136 said:
Except that they don't want to be with Him.
Not while they were alive, perhaps. But why not give them an opportunity to change their mind postmortem?