If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[2tim_215]

I never said stoning to death is pleasant.

This is what you said, sort of implying that it wasn't all that bad:

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

And how do you know how long it would take? It would depend in part how long it took for them to die which would probably depend on how strong they were physically and how strong their will to live was.
I just think that it was a very unpleasant experience.

 

[he-man]

A better translation is:
10and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God
send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. (YLT)

2 Thessalonians 2:10 destroyed, G622 ἀπόλλυμι base of G3639; to destroy fully

(ABP+) andG2532 inG1722 everyG3956 deceptionG539 G3588 of unrighteousnessG93 amongG1722 the onesG3588 being destroyed,G622 because ofG446.2 theG3588 loveG26 of theG3588 truthG225 they received notG3756 G1209 forG1519 G3588 them to be delivered.G4982 G1473
(Darby) and in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish, because they have not received the love of the truth that they might be saved.
(ESV) and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
(ESV+) and with all wicked deception for R19those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

1Corinthians 1:18　 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.　

(ISV) and every type of evil to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them.
(KJV) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(KJV+) AndG2532 withG1722 allG3956 deceivablenessG539 of unrighteousnessG93 inG1722 them that perish;G622 becauseG473 G3739 they receivedG1209 notG3756 theG3588 loveG26 of theG3588 truth,G225 that theyG846 might be saved.G4982
(KJV-BRG) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(Webster) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(YLT) and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,

Revelation 21:8　 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, R21their portion will be in R22the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is R23the second death."

Revelation 2:11　 R3He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. R3The one who conquers will not be hurt by R4the second death.’　(ESV+)

Matthew 7:13 Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and many are they who go in through it.

Mark 16:16 He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.

Luke 13:24 Strive with earnestness to enter in through the narrow door, for many, I say to you, will seek to go in and will not be able.

John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

Hebrews 3:19 And we see that they could not go in on account of unbelief
2 Thessalonians 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish, because they have not received the love of the truth that they might be saved.

 

[FineLinen]

2 Thessalonians 2:10 destroyed, G622 ἀπόλλυμι base of G3639; to destroy fully

(ABP+) andG2532 inG1722 everyG3956 deceptionG539 G3588 of unrighteousnessG93 amongG1722 the onesG3588 being destroyed,G622 because ofG446.2 theG3588 loveG26 of theG3588 truthG225 they received notG3756 G1209 forG1519 G3588 them to be delivered.G4982 G1473
(Darby) and in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish, because they have not received the love of the truth that they might be saved.
(ESV) and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
(ESV+) and with all wicked deception for R19those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

1Corinthians 1:18　 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.　

(ISV) and every type of evil to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them.
(KJV) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(KJV+) AndG2532 withG1722 allG3956 deceivablenessG539 of unrighteousnessG93 inG1722 them that perish;G622 becauseG473 G3739 they receivedG1209 notG3756 theG3588 loveG26 of theG3588 truth,G225 that theyG846 might be saved.G4982
(KJV-BRG) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(Webster) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(YLT) and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,

Revelation 21:8　 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, R21their portion will be in R22the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is R23the second death."

Revelation 2:11　 R3He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. R3The one who conquers will not be hurt by R4the second death.’　(ESV+)

Matthew 7:13 Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and many are they who go in through it.

Mark 16:16 He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.

Luke 13:24 Strive with earnestness to enter in through the narrow door, for many, I say to you, will seek to go in and will not be able.

John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

Hebrews 3:19 And we see that they could not go in on account of unbelief
2 Thessalonians 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish, because they have not received the love of the truth that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 destroyed, G622 ἀπόλλυμι base of G3639; to destroy fully

(ABP+) andG2532 inG1722 everyG3956 deceptionG539 G3588 of unrighteousnessG93 amongG1722 the onesG3588 being destroyed,G622 because ofG446.2 theG3588 loveG26 of theG3588 truthG225 they received notG3756 G1209 forG1519 G3588 them to be delivered.G4982 G1473
(Darby) and in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish, because they have not received the love of the truth that they might be saved.
(ESV) and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
(ESV+) and with all wicked deception for R19those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

1Corinthians 1:18　 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.　

(ISV) and every type of evil to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them.
(KJV) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(KJV+) AndG2532 withG1722 allG3956 deceivablenessG539 of unrighteousnessG93 inG1722 them that perish;G622 becauseG473 G3739 they receivedG1209 notG3756 theG3588 loveG26 of theG3588 truth,G225 that theyG846 might be saved.G4982
(KJV-BRG) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(Webster) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(YLT) and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,

Revelation 21:8　 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, R21their portion will be in R22the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is R23the second death."

Revelation 2:11　 R3He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. R3The one who conquers will not be hurt by R4the second death.’　(ESV+)

Matthew 7:13 Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and many are they who go in through it.

Mark 16:16 He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.

Luke 13:24 Strive with earnestness to enter in through the narrow door, for many, I say to you, will seek to go in and will not be able.

John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

Hebrews 3:19 And we see that they could not go in on account of unbelief
2 Thessalonians 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness to them that perish, because they have not received the love of the truth that they might be saved.

Dear he-man: my friend you not only feel free to take words out of the koine and inject words at your convenience, you are broken!

The Unselfishness of God by Hannah Whitall Smith
I have always felt that this time my real discovery of the unselfishness of God began. Up to then, while I had rejoiced in the salvation for myself that I had discovered, I had been secretly beset from time to time with a torturing feeling that, after all, it was rather a selfish salvation, both for Him and for me. How could a good God enjoy Himself in Heaven, knowing all the while that a large proportion of the beings He had Himself created were doomed to eternal misery, unless He were a selfish God?

I had known that the Bible said that He was a God of love, and I had supposed that it must be true, but always there had been at the bottom of my mind this secret feeling that His love could not stand the test of comparison with the ideal of love in my own heart. I knew that, poor and imperfect as my love must be,I could never have enjoyed myself in Heaven while one of my children, no matter how naughty, was shut out; and that He could and did enjoy Himself, while countless thousands of His children were shut out, seemed to me a failure in the most essential element of love. So that, grateful as I had felt for the blessings of forgiveness and of a sure and certain hope of Heaven for myself, I still had often felt as if after all the God I worshiped was a selfish God, who cared more for His own comfort and His own glory than He did for the poor suffering beings He had made.

But now I began to see that the wideness of God’s love was far beyond any wideness that I could even conceive of; and that if I took all the unselfish love of every mother’s heart the whole world over, and piled it all together, and multiplied it by millions, I would still only get a faint idea of the unselfishness of God.

I had always thought of Him as loving, but now I found out that He was far more than loving: He was love, love embodied and ingrained. I saw that He was, as it were, made out of love, so that in the very nature of things He could not do anything contrary to love. Not that He would not do it, but actually could not, because love was the very essence of His being. I saw that the law of love, like he law of gravitation, is inevitable in its working, and that God is, if I may say so, under this law, and cannot help obeying it.

The Rest Of The Story

http://womenofchristianity.com/the-unselfishness-of-god-by-hannah-whitall-smith/

 

[ClementofA]

The M.O. of poster "he-man": post a verse (or list of verses). Then, after i answer them, ignore my answer & post another verse/verses.

All of the "he-man" verses have been addressed before. See this thread & others where i have engaged the "he-man".

Now, let's see, which of the verses on his list shall i answer today (which he-man will ignore & then post another list). How about:

John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

Some more literal versions read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/view/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[he-man]

The M.O. of poster "he-man": post a verse (or list of verses). Some more literal versions read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away.

Great and now let us compare the other sources for John 3:36

John 3:36

(ABP+)　 The oneG3588 trustingG4100 inG1519 theG3588 sonG5207 hasG2192 [2lifeG2222 1eternal];G166 but the oneG3588 G1161 resistingG544 theG3588 sonG5207 shall not seeG3756 G3708 theG3588 life,G2222 butG237.1 theG3588 angerG3709 G3588 of GodG2316 remainsG3306 uponG1909 him.G1473

(Darby)　 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

(ESV)　 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

(ESV+)　 R25Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; R26whoever does not obey the Son shall not R1see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

(ISV)　 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

(KJV)　 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

ASV He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

AMP He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”

AMPC And he who believes in (has faith in, clings to, relies on) the Son has (now possesses) eternal life. But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving toward, refuses to trust in, disregards, is not subject to) the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God’s displeasure remains on him; His indignation hangs over him continually.]

BRG He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

CSB The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

CEB Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever doesn’t believe in the Son won’t see life, but the angry judgment of God remains on them.”

CJB Whoever trusts in the Son has eternal life. But whoever disobeys the Son will not see that life but remains subject to God’s wrath.”

CEV Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever.

DLNT The one believing in the Son has eternal life. But the one disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him”.

DRA He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

ERV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. But those who do not obey the Son will never have that life. They cannot get away from God’s anger.”

EHV The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, God’s wrath remains on him.

ESVUK Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

EXB Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who ·do not obey [reject] the Son will ·never have [L not see] life. God’s ·anger [wrath] ·stays [remains] on them.”

GNV He that believeth in the Son, hath everlasting life, and he that obeyeth not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

GW Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, he will see God’s constant anger.”

GNT Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment.

HCSB The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

ICB He who believes in the Son has eternal life. But he who does not obey the Son will never have that life. God’s anger stays with him.”

PHILLIPS The man who believes in the Son has eternal life. The man who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; he lives under the anger of God.”

JUB He that believes in the Son has eternal life, and he that does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

AKJV He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

LEB The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.

TLB And all who trust him—God’s Son—to save them have eternal life; those who don’t believe and obey him shall never see heaven, but the wrath of God remains upon them.”

MSG “The One that God sent speaks God’s words. And don’t think he rations out the Spirit in bits and pieces. The Father loves the Son extravagantly. He turned everything over to him so he could give it away—a lavish distribution of gifts. That is why whoever accepts and trusts the Son gets in on everything, life complete and forever! And that is also why the person who avoids and distrusts the Son is in the dark and doesn’t see life. All he experiences of God is darkness, and an angry darkness at that.”

MEV He who believes in the Son has eternal life. He who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

MOUNCE The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

NOG Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, he will see God’s constant anger.”

NABRE Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

NASB He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

NCV Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God’s anger stays on them.”

NET The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.

NIRV Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life. Anyone who does not believe in the Son will not have life. God’s anger remains on them.”

NIV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

NIVUK Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

NKJV He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

NLV He who puts his trust in the Son has life that lasts forever. He who does not put his trust in the Son will not have life, but the anger of God is on him.”

NLT And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

NMB The person who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and the person who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

NRSV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

NRSVA Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

NRSVACE Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

NRSVCE Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

NTE Anyone who believes in the son shares in the life of God’s new age. Anyone who doesn’t believe in the son won’t see life, but God’s wrath rests on him.

OJB The one with emunah in the Ben [HaElohim] has Chayyei Olam; but the one disobeying the Ben [HaElohim] will not see Chayyim, but the Charon Af Hashem remains on him.

TPT Those who trust in the Son possess eternal life; but those who don’t obey the Son will not see life, and God’s anger will rise up against them.”

RSV He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

RSVCE He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

TLV He who trusts in the Son has eternal life. He who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

VOICE Those who believe in the Son will bask in eternal life, but those who disobey the Son will never experience life. They will know only God’s lingering wrath.

WEB One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

WE He who believes in the Son will live for ever. He who does not believe in the Son will not live. God will be very angry with him for ever.'

WYC He that believeth in the Son, hath everlasting life; but he that is unbelieveful to the Son, shall not see everlasting life, but the wrath of God dwelleth on him.

YLT he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'

So I recommend for you: By day the Lord directs his love, at night his song is with me— a prayer to the God of my life.

You are confused God addresses the Hebrews in the OT and says they are the ones whose sins will be forgiven if they REPENT!

Act 5:31　 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.　

32　 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him

However, Esau was rejected and not able to receive repentance!

Hebrews 12:16　 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Hebrews 12:17　 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Hebrews 6:8　 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.　

 

[ClementofA]

Great and now let us compare the other sources for John 3:36

That reminds me of this discussion i had yesterday:

There is no way 22 translations spanning from 1535 to 2014 are gonna all get it wrong.

Since the translators all believed in endless punishment, what else would you expect, except that they all would mis-translate certain "hell" passages the same way? Obviously. OTOH you can find 22 other translations that disagree with your 22 & never refer to "eternal" "hell".

If atheists had 1000 Bible versions printed that said "God is dead" would you believe that because - most - versions say so? That demonstrates how silly is the above appeal by poster "he-man" to the number of English Bible versions. Versions, BTW, cloned by those in the biased towards endless torments boys club.

This is a prime example of heterodox cherry picking sources to support assumptions/presuppositions.

Checkout the orthodox universalism majority in the early church (and a hope for universalism majority in the present day church):

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/

Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

If you think BDAG is wrong you will have to prove it

If you think the Bible & the early church & the modern church are all wrong, you will have to prove it.

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

statement of faith
http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57

7 myths
https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/04/responses-to-evangelical-objections-to.html

 

[he-man]

That reminds me of this discussion i had yesterday:Since the translators all believed in endless punishment, what else would you expect, except that they all would mis-translate certain "hell" passages the same way? Obviously. OTOH you can find 22 other translations that disagree with your 22 & never refer to "eternal" "hell". If you think the Bible & the early church & the modern church are all wrong, you will have to prove it.
If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

A. Torture is not the word. It is ceasing to exist. The worms are spoken of as never dying if there is not any flesh left to eat. There must be a lot of flesh that will be available. The consuming fire means just that. ZERO, nothing left but smoke that is gone forever.

Deuteronomy 9:3　 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

Hebrews 12:29　 For our God is a consuming fire.

The smoke ascends up forever and ever, not the torment. They have no rest, that is, they have no eternal life but wisp away like smoke.
Revelation 14:11　 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Luke 16:26　 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.　

John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

See the title. See what men TO HIS FACE called Jesus (God) > 'monster' / drunk/ womaizer/ demon possessed.....
So no strange thing if they call Yahweh (God) names also.

 

[ClementofA]

The M.O. of poster "he-man": post a verse (or list of verses). Then, after i answer them, ignore my answer & post another verse/verses.

All of the "he-man" verses have been addressed before. See this thread & others where i have engaged the "he-man".

Now, let's see, which of the verses on his list shall i answer today (which he-man will ignore & then post another list). How about:

Luke 16:26　 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.　

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

Tom Talbott said:

"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2018/05/29/how-to-read-the-bible-from-a-universalist-perspective/

---


We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

 

[he-man]

The M.O. of poster "he-man": post a verse (or list of verses). Then, after i answer them, ignore my answer & post another verse/verses. All of the "he-man" verses have been addressed before. See this thread & others where i have engaged the "he-man". Now, let's see, which of the verses on his list shall i answer today (which he-man will ignore & then post another list). How about: Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades: The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.
" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "
" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all.

Yes, it is a parable that tells you if you follow the world and not the Son you will remain in the grave and will never be able to pass into heaven!
"so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot, neither can they pass to us that would come from thence; not that those in heaven can desire to go to those in hell; though those in hell, may wish to be in heaven; but the sense is, that by this irrevocable decree of God, the saints in heaven are eternally happy, and the wicked in hell eternally miserable: and this also agrees with the notions of the Jews [GILL]
Fixed - Strengthened - made firm or immovable. It is so established that it will never be movable or passable. It will forever divide heaven and hell. Neither can they pass to us ... - There can be no doubt that the wicked will desire to pass the gulf that divides them from heaven. They would be glad to be in a state of happiness; but all such wishes will be vain.

How, in the face of the solemn statement of the Saviour here, can people believe that there will be a “restoration” of all the wicked to heaven?

Universalists hold that hell will yet be vacated of its guilty millions, and that all its miserable inhabitants will be received to heaven! Who shall conduct them across this gulf, when Jesus Christ says it cannot be passed? Who shall build a bridge over that yawning chasm which he says is “fixed?”

No: if there is anything certain from the Scripture, it is that they who enter hell [the final time] return no more; they who sink there sink forever.[BARNES]

Luke 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

Luke 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Matthew 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting penal infliction: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

 

[2tim_215]

Yes, it is a parable that tells you if you follow the world and not the Son you will remain in the grave and will never be able to pass into heaven!
"so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot, neither can they pass to us that would come from thence; not that those in heaven can desire to go to those in hell; though those in hell, may wish to be in heaven; but the sense is, that by this irrevocable decree of God, the saints in heaven are eternally happy, and the wicked in hell eternally miserable: and this also agrees with the notions of the Jews [GILL]
Fixed - Strengthened - made firm or immovable. It is so established that it will never be movable or passable. It will forever divide heaven and hell. Neither can they pass to us ... - There can be no doubt that the wicked will desire to pass the gulf that divides them from heaven. They would be glad to be in a state of happiness; but all such wishes will be vain.

How, in the face of the solemn statement of the Saviour here, can people believe that there will be a “restoration” of all the wicked to heaven?

Universalists hold that hell will yet be vacated of its guilty millions, and that all its miserable inhabitants will be received to heaven! Who shall conduct them across this gulf, when Jesus Christ says it cannot be passed? Who shall build a bridge over that yawning chasm which he says is “fixed?”

No: if there is anything certain from the Scripture, it is that they who enter hell [the final time] return no more; they who sink there sink forever.[BARNES]

Luke 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

Luke 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Matthew 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting penal infliction: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

"15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
I don't think it could be any clearer.

 

[ClementofA]

Yes, it is a parable that tells you if you follow the world and not the Son you will remain in the grave and will never be able to pass into heaven!

Actually the Bible says all will come out of their graves at their resurrection. No one will "remain in the grave".

How, in the face of the solemn statement of the Saviour here, can people believe that there will be a “restoration” of all the wicked to heaven?

If you had read my post you'ld know the answer before you asked the question.

The M.O. of poster "he-man": post a verse (or list of verses). Then, after i answer them, ignore my answer & post another verse/verses.

All of the "he-man" verses have been addressed before. See this thread & others where i have engaged the "he-man". And:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

 

[he-man]

Actually the Bible says all will come out of their graves at their resurrection. No one will "remain in the grave".

Universalists hold that hell will yet be vacated of its guilty millions, and that all its miserable inhabitants will be received to heaven! Who shall conduct them across this gulf, when Jesus Christ says it cannot be passed? Who shall build a bridge over that yawning chasm which he says is “fixed?”

There is no reason to judge anyone who has not knowledge. Ignorance is no excuse!
Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Job 36:12 But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge. Or they shall perish for lack of knowledge; because they have none; through ignorance and that affected; they know not nor will they understand, but despise the means of knowledge, and hate instruction. [GILL]

Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Revlation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled, and place was not found for them.

You must have works before you can be judged, faith without works is dead!
Revlation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is that of life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books according to their works.

Revlation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged each according to their works:

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all be manifested before the judgment-seat of the Christ, that each may receive the things done in the body, according to those he has done, whether it be good or evil.

Jude 1:5 But I would put you in remembrance, you who once knew all things, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, in the second place destroyed those who had not believed.

Job 27:8 For what is the hope of the ungodly, when God cutteth him off, when God taketh away his soul?

Psalms 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

That the impious were never to have any resurrection, but be annihilated, was the opinion of several among the Jews, and of some among Christians. [CLARKE]

The Psalmist adds, “therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment.” To “stand” is a forensic term, and denotes “to stand acquitted,” and with those who live and die ungodly such cannot be the case. [ Bibical Illustrator]

stand = rise. No part in first resurrection. [Bullinger]

The Septuagint and Vulgate render it, “the wicked shall not rise - ἀναστήσονται anastēsontai - resurgent - in judgment.” [BARNES]

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,.... Neither in temporal judgment, when God comes forth in a way of wrath and sore displeasure; for who can stand before him when he is angry? what are chaff and stubble, thorns and briers, to consuming fire? nor in the last and great day of judgment, so the Targum and Kimchi interpret the words; for that day will burn like an oven the wicked, who will be as stubble, and leave neither root nor branch, Malachi 4:1, when the great day of the Lamb's wrath is come, who will be able to stand?

Romans 6:16; there will be no standing for the wicked when he appears; they will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to take their trial and hear their sentence, 2 Corinthians 5:10; but they shall not stand in the same place with the righteous, not at Christ's right hand, but at his left; they shall not stand with an holy confidence, with intrepidity, and without shame, as the blessed man will; they will not stand, but fall in judgment; they will not be acquitted and discharged, but be condemned to everlasting judgment ,.. chaff and tares among Christ's wheat, and wolves and goats among his sheep; but then there will be an eternal separation, and no mixing together any more. [GILL]

 

[2tim_215]

Ephesians 4:8-15 (KJV)
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
captivity G162 aichmalōteuō from <G164> (aichmalotos); to capture [like <G163> (aichmalotizo)] :- lead captive.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
1 Peter 3:18-20 (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
What spirits were those in prison that Paul is referring to? I believe he's referring to the wicked dead. When Jesus led "captivity captive" I believe He was taking those saints who were on the Abraham side of the gulf (Paradise side) to heaven with Him when He made His final ascension to heaven and I also believe that He preached to those on the rich man's side of the gulf who are still in Hades waiting for judgement and so Paradise is now empty.

 

[he-man]

Ephesians 4:8-15 (KJV)
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
captivity G162 aichmalōteuō from <G164> (aichmalotos); to capture [like <G163> (aichmalotizo)] :- lead captive.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
1 Peter 3:18-20 (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
What spirits were those in prison that Paul is referring to? I believe he's referring to the wicked dead. When Jesus led "captivity captive" I believe He was taking those saints who were on the Abraham side of the gulf (Paradise side) to heaven with Him when He made His final ascension to heaven and I also believe that He preached to those on the rich man's side of the gulf who are still in Hades waiting for judgment and so Paradise is now empty.

Jesus was dead and in the grave for 3 days and could not have preached anywhere.

No man is right now in heaven except Christ, not even David.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts of the Apostles 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

[2tim_215]

Jesus was dead and in the grave for 3 days and could not have preached anywhere.
Jesus first went into Hades before He
No man is right now in heaven except Christ, not even David.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts of the Apostles 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

[2tim_215]

Jesus was dead and in the grave for 3 days and could not have preached anywhere.

So for those 3 days you think that Jesus was actually dead? And if not what was He doing? Just twiddling His thumbs?

He told the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise with Jesus that same day didn't He? And where was Paradise? It was part of Hades which we saw in Luke 16 where Lazarus was along with Abraham which is where your Old Testament saints were prior to Jesus death.

So if you agree that Jesus went to hell (which was part of Hades) I'm sure you'd also agree that He didn't stay there and is now sitting at the right hand of the Father as scripture tells us. And Paul does tell us that He took captivity captive with Him in Ephesians when He made His ascension and preached to the spirits which were in prison, specifically mentioning those who rebelled against God during the days of Noah. And we do not find John disputing any of Paul's teaching anywhere.

No man is right now in heaven except Christ, not even David.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

When John wrote this, he was speaking to Jews, not Acts 2 Christians yet, and it could be interpreted as no one "prior to Jesus" had ascended up to heaven. This would include all the Old Testament saints. However this doesn't necessarily preclude those New Testament Christians from going directly to heaven upon death.

Acts of the Apostles 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Again, this would have precluded Jesus death on the cross. I'm not going to be dogmatic about it, but this is what makes the most sense to me. I don't believe in "soul sleep" as I know many do. Be blessed He-man.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

no.

He told the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise with Jesus that same day didn't He?

 

[Chinchilla]

What is best thing in heaven ? God

What is worst thing in hell ? God

It's not exclusive , satan is not a goat with horns and pitchfork ruling in hell .

 

[2tim_215]

no.

Luke 23:42-43 (KJV)
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.