If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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FineLinen

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Keep seeking, seek, and keep seeking, ask and keep asking, and the Father will grant understanding; the truth will be known, if you don't give up, and the truth will set you free.

Anyone with slave in their name is not free slaveboy! Not!
 
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SkyWriting

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If God knew that without His forcing them to be saved, they would reject Him for all eternity & be tormented, then He would be a monster if He didn't force them to be saved.

Love hurts.
Love means you offer others freedom to not love you back.
That's the rules of love.
 
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Choir Loft

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What is best thing in heaven ? God

What is worst thing in hell ? God

It's not exclusive , satan is not a goat with horns and pitchfork ruling in hell .

There is no such thing as hell.

There IS Final Judgment, but the consequence of it for the wicked is the Second Death, not torture. The idea of hell came from Plato and Greek mythology, not the New Covenant and not Hebrew scripture.

Christians beat on hell like the dead horse it really is.

They love to whip everyone with the idea just to prove they are superior. They are not. The only thing they prove by such words is that they are brutal sadists. Christians believe many things that are unprovable in logic and scripture, but that doesn't stop them from pushing it on everybody just the same. They never listen and they never learn anything. They are proud and stubborn .... just like the Jews who betrayed their own God and King.

The root of the truth about afterlife and judgment rests in two scriptures:

#1 the quality and character of God -
who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light”
- 1 Tim 6:16

#2 the quality and character of humankind -
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;
- Genesis 6:3a

The good news of the gospel is derived immortality - granted by God of His own nature to those who accept Him on His terms in the person of Jesus Christ. All others suffer permanent and irreversible destruction.

The nature of the judgment is revealed in the gospel of Mathew and quoted by Jesus -
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
- Matt 7:23

The nature of the judgment of the wicked is denial of the life of God. They are evicted from God's presence and every benefit derived from it. This means conscious life. The corollary of life is death(*). Therefore the Final Judgment of the wicked is extermination - permanent and irreversible.

Those who love the false notion that God is a keeper of a dungeon of horrors will go back to arguing the fallacy of hell - and totally ignore the Bible statement that man is mortal. ONLY God is immortal.

There is NO part of a human that is immortal.

Which part of NO is not understood? The Bible does not imply human immortality, except for the derived immortality of the Second Birth. There is not so much as a hint of human immortality anywhere.

Born twice die once. Born once, die twice.

Beware the Second Death - total and complete annihilation.

The time to repent of sin is NOW.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) For all Christians out there who can't seem to get a handle on this, it isn't rocket science. Cemeteries are full of dead people, people that have no life. [Consciousness - life = death] Get it?
 
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Chinchilla

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There is no such thing as hell.

There IS Final Judgment, but the consequence of it for the wicked is the Second Death, not torture. The idea of hell came from Plato and Greek mythology, not the New Covenant and not Hebrew scripture.

Christians beat on hell like the dead horse it really is.

There are many judgements not just one , for example :
Judgement Seat of Christ
Sheep and Goat Judgement
Great White Throne Judgement

You can't put them all into one and pretend they aren't separate .

There are also two resurrections .
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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If God knew that without His forcing them to be saved, they would reject Him for all eternity & be tormented, then He would be a monster if He didn't force them to be saved. Similarly, many believe He will force aborted babies into heaven without their having chosen it of their own free will. Likewise, many believe He will force others in heaven to remain there forever without having a free choice to reject God as many angels of heaven once did. So, given that, forcing would not appear to be an issue with Love Omnipotent. At least not in the after life (i.e. after death, the hereafter).

God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Therefore universal salvation is truth.



It saves all. Though given only the choice between annihilation and a being getting endless torments, it would choose the more loving & merciful of the two. Therefore endless hell is a myth.

If God created human beings such that they are (1) "eternally existing (as He Himself is)", so that it would be impossible to annihilate them even if Love Omnipotent wanted to, and (2) if He knew in advance that some of them would spend eternity rejecting Him, then (3) He is a monster for having created them that way.



It's a logical argument. Is all logic fallen?

Lk.12:57
New American Standard Bible
"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
King James Bible
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just?

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me.

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Talbott—Does God allow irreparable harm?
Talbott—Does God allow irreparable harm?


******************************************************


Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Is there salvation after death?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven


"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"

The guilty pair, bowed down with care
God gave His Son to win
His erring child He reconciled
And pardoned from his sin

Could we with ink the ocean fill
And were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill
And every man a scribe by trade

To write the love of God above
Would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole
Though stretched from sky to sky

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

O love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!
Unbelief does not save.
You according to your post are in unbelief.
Jesus did not weep over Jerusalem because they were all going to be saved.
 
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he-man

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So for those 3 days you think that Jesus was actually dead? And if not what was He doing? Just twiddling His thumbs?
Dead as a doornail.
He told the thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise with Jesus that same day didn't He?
Since Jesus was dead in the grave for 3 days he hardly could have meant that day, but with the comma in the proper place, which punctuation was not used in the original manuscripts.
43 και ειπεν αυτω αμην σοι λεγω σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω 44 και ην ηδη ωσει ωρα εκτη και σκοτος εγενετο εφ ολην την γην εως ωρας ενατης
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. "I say unto thee today"; as if Christ only signified the time when he said this, and not when the thief should be with him in paradise" our Lord is supposed to have meant, “Thou shalt be with me after the resurrection I tell thee this, To-Day.”
So if you agree that Jesus went to hell (which was part of Hades) I'm sure you'd also agree that He didn't stay there and is now sitting at the right hand of the Father as scripture tells us.
Only after his ascension
When John wrote this, he was speaking to Jews, not Acts 2 Christians yet, and it could be interpreted as no one "prior to Jesus" had ascended up to heaven. This would include all the Old Testament saints. However this doesn't necessarily preclude those New Testament Christians from going directly to heaven upon death. Again, this would have precluded Jesus death on the cross. I'm not going to be dogmatic about it, but this is what makes the most sense to me. I don't believe in "soul sleep" as I know many do. Be blessed He-man.
Sorry but, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
 
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ClementofA

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The nature of the judgment is revealed in the gospel of Mathew and quoted by Jesus -
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
- Matt 7:23


"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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No. (edit: yes, for some; but still many cannot 'know' for whatever reason) >
Billions are deceived daily by such messages/ preaching/ false gospel. (they 'think' it glorifies the Lord Jesus; yet it is directly opposed to Him and seeking to destroy all who are on earth)

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."
 
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he-man

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"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."
Luke 13:25-27 I know you not..
 
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Choir Loft

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There are many judgements not just one , for example :
Judgement Seat of Christ
Sheep and Goat Judgement
Great White Throne Judgement

You can't put them all into one and pretend they aren't separate .

There are also two resurrections .

You are really off the rails on this one. Please please please go back to Revelation and do a detailed study on the portion you're quoting.

Final Judgment
Final Judgment is one event and one circumstance. It affects different people and different groups differently. This is why the Biblical account of it describes each one separately. For instance, those who have accepted Christ are not subject to the Second Death because Jesus suffered their judgment as a substitute for them upon the cross.(*) Those who have rejected Christ, the majority of people, will be rejected by God.

White Throne
The Great White Throne of judgment is the FINAL JUDGMENT. During the Final Judgment, Jesus Christ sits on the throne of judgment. The White Throne is also called the judgment seat. Same same. Look it up.

Why does Jesus sit in Final Judgment upon the Great White throne?

Because Jesus has already suffered judgment at the hands of sinful men.
Because He has lived the trials of temptation that all mankind shares.
Because He lived and died without sin.
Because those who have rejected Him in life will be rejected by Him in death.
Because those who've trusted Him during their life are to share in His life.

I submit to you that the seat Jesus sits upon is both mercy and judgment. Mercy is shown toward those who have called upon Him for it. Judgment is shown to those who've denied the mercy of God all their natural lives. Each one gets what he or she wants. Only the wicked get what they deserve.

Sheep & Goats
The sheep and goat judgment happens at the same time. Any good teacher will use examples and similar allusions to teach a point. Remember your teachers in school? They used different examples and approaches to teach the same idea. Jesus and the apostles did it too. The Bible repeats ideas in different forms too - so as to make a point. The same thing is happening when you read about Final Judgment. Sheep and goats are word symbolism for the just and the wicked/unjust.

JUSTIFICATION by grace is the winning ticket here, not good deeds. A study on the doctrine of justification would be a good idea at this point.

Biblical imagery is important in that it can be used to interpret texts and determine context. Sheep are always linked to possessions of Christ. For instance, Jesus is called the Good Shepherd. Goats as animals cannot be trusted. They aren't useful for anything and therefore are considered outcasts of the Kingdom of Heaven. TORAH describes the goat as a carrier of sin in Leviticus 16:22 where we get the phrase scape goat. In Leviticus the sins of the people are cast upon a goat and the goat in turn is driven from the camp. Driving the goat from the camp of the people is a text image also used in the Final Judgment scene. Like the scape goat, the wicked are condemned to be cast out or driven away from the presence of God.

The Second Death

Depart from Me ye accursed. I never knew you. (Matt 7:23, Matt 25:41)

There are indeed two resurrections; resurrection of the just and resurrection of the wicked. (John 5:28-29) At the Final Judgment the just are granted reward, their names are found in the book of life and they are ushered into the joy of their Master. The wicked are sent away from the presence of God and denied any further benefits of His presence - including life.

Since man is naturally mortal, body and spirit, the wicked suffer the Second Death in total and absolute extinction of their spirit. The wicked do NOT suffer everlasting torment, because such an experience would be life - albeit a terrible one. God remains merciful even to the wicked. God does not torture the damned. He removes the gift of life permanently.

Meanwhile the just have already been given a portion of God's own spirit, called derived immortality or the Second Birth. They do not suffer the Second Death.

The problem of the dogma of hell is that it depends upon the <false> Greek belief established by Plato that some part of man survives death and is itself indestructible. No reference to this can be found in the Bible. None at all. Search cover to cover and you will not find it. Man is mortal and will die, body and spirit, unless God intervenes.

When man rejects God's offer there is nothing left except to suffer the consequences of it - death. (Romans 6:23)

The absolute beauty of the gospel message is that God is willing to forgive and grant immortality to those who will accept His Son Jesus Christ. This is the greatest miracle since creation. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The Biblical principle of substitution is very important and is applied in many ways, not just in judgment.
 
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he-man

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You are really off the rails on this one. Please please please go back to Revelation and do a detailed study on the portion you're quoting.

Final Judgment
Final Judgment is one event and one circumstance. It affects different people and different groups differently. This is why the Biblical account of it describes each one separately. For instance, those who have accepted Christ are not subject to the Second Death because Jesus suffered their judgment as a substitute for them upon the cross.(*) Those who have rejected Christ, the majority of people, will be rejected by God.

White Throne
The Great White Throne of judgment is the FINAL JUDGMENT. During the Final Judgment, Jesus Christ sits on the throne of judgment. The White Throne is also called the judgment seat. Same same. Look it up.

Why does Jesus sit in Final Judgment upon the Great White throne?

Because Jesus has already suffered judgment at the hands of sinful men.
Because He has lived the trials of temptation that all mankind shares.
Because He lived and died without sin.
Because those who have rejected Him in life will be rejected by Him in death.
Because those who've trusted Him during their life are to share in His life.

I submit to you that the seat Jesus sits upon is both mercy and judgment. Mercy is shown toward those who have called upon Him for it. Judgment is shown to those who've denied the mercy of God all their natural lives. Each one gets what he or she wants. Only the wicked get what they deserve.

Sheep & Goats
The sheep and goat judgment happens at the same time. Any good teacher will use examples and similar allusions to teach a point. Remember your teachers in school? They used different examples and approaches to teach the same idea. Jesus and the apostles did it too. The Bible repeats ideas in different forms too - so as to make a point. The same thing is happening when you read about Final Judgment. Sheep and goats are word symbolism for the just and the wicked/unjust.

JUSTIFICATION by grace is the winning ticket here, not good deeds. A study on the doctrine of justification would be a good idea at this point.

Biblical imagery is important in that it can be used to interpret texts and determine context. Sheep are always linked to possessions of Christ. For instance, Jesus is called the Good Shepherd. Goats as animals cannot be trusted. They aren't useful for anything and therefore are considered outcasts of the Kingdom of Heaven. TORAH describes the goat as a carrier of sin in Leviticus 16:22 where we get the phrase scape goat. In Leviticus the sins of the people are cast upon a goat and the goat in turn is driven from the camp. Driving the goat from the camp of the people is a text image also used in the Final Judgment scene. Like the scape goat, the wicked are condemned to be cast out or driven away from the presence of God.

The Second Death

Depart from Me ye accursed. I never knew you. (Matt 7:23, Matt 25:41)

There are indeed two resurrections; resurrection of the just and resurrection of the wicked. (John 5:28-29) At the Final Judgment the just are granted reward, their names are found in the book of life and they are ushered into the joy of their Master. The wicked are sent away from the presence of God and denied any further benefits of His presence - including life.

Since man is naturally mortal, body and spirit, the wicked suffer the Second Death in total and absolute extinction of their spirit. The wicked do NOT suffer everlasting torment, because such an experience would be life - albeit a terrible one. God remains merciful even to the wicked. God does not torture the damned. He removes the gift of life permanently.

Meanwhile the just have already been given a portion of God's own spirit, called derived immortality or the Second Birth. They do not suffer the Second Death.

The problem of the dogma of hell is that it depends upon the <false> Greek belief established by Plato that some part of man survives death and is itself indestructible. No reference to this can be found in the Bible. None at all. Search cover to cover and you will not find it. Man is mortal and will die, body and spirit, unless God intervenes.

When man rejects God's offer there is nothing left except to suffer the consequences of it - death. (Romans 6:23)

The absolute beauty of the gospel message is that God is willing to forgive and grant immortality to those who will accept His Son Jesus Christ. This is the greatest miracle since creation. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The Biblical principle of substitution is very important and is applied in many ways, not just in judgment.
Amen!
Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Mark 4:18-19
 
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ClementofA

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Love hurts.
Love means you offer others freedom to not love you back.
That's the rules of love.

Love Omnipotent Crucified has all eternity & unlimited offers of salvation for each individual. Mathematically it's impossible for anyone to reject Him forever.

New International Version
For Christ's love compels us,

English Standard Version
For the love of Christ controls us

Berean Literal Bible
For the love of Christ compels us

New American Standard Bible
For the love of Christ controls us

King James Bible
For the love of Christ constraineth us


“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
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he-man

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Love Omnipotent Crucified has all eternity & unlimited offers of salvation for each individual. Mathematically it's impossible for anyone to reject Him forever.

New International Version
For Christ's love compels us,

English Standard Version
For the love of Christ controls us

Berean Literal Bible
For the love of Christ compels us

New American Standard Bible
For the love of Christ controls us

King James Bible
For the love of Christ constraineth us


“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
Mockers for ever they see not the light.
Leviticus 10:1,2 And the sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, take each his censer, and put in them fire, and put on it perfume, and bring near before Jehovah strange fire, which He hath not commanded them;
2 and fire goeth out from before Jehovah, and consumeth them, and they die before Jehovah.

Psalms 1:4,5,6 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2 Peter 2:5,6,7 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand - This refers to the winnowing mentioned in the preceding verse. Some of the versions have, The ungodly shall not arise in the judgment - they shall have no resurrection, except to shame and everlasting contempt. But probably the meaning is, When they come to be judged, they shall be condemned. They shall have nothing to plead in their behalf. That the impious were never to have any resurrection, but be annihilated, was the opinion of several among the Jews, and of some among Christians. [CLARKE]

Psalms 49:19, 20 It cometh to the generation of his fathers, For ever they see not the light.
20 Man in honour, who understandest not, Hath been like the beasts, they have been cut off!
 
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Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33:

22 The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end.
31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His
abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Every argument against universalism has been addressed on these forums & none have shown Scriptural Universalism is not true. For example:

Psalms 49:19, It cometh to the generation of his fathers, For ever they see not the light.

The Hebrew word mistranslated "For ever" above is Strong's Hebrew word #5331, netsach.

The Hebrew of Psa.49:19 has "until"[5704] "a goal"[5331]:

"netsach {nay'-tsakh}; from 5329; properly, a goal...":

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/H5331/netsach.htm
https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/hebrew/5331.html

5704: "Short Definition: until":

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5704.htm

The LXX Hebrew scholars who translated NETSACH in the Septuagint rendered it AION[165] in the Greek OT, meaning literally an "age" or "eon" (The Apostolic Bible Polygot, Greek-English Interlinear, p.794). This Greek-English interlinear says "unto the eon he shall not see light". The Greek OT was the Scriptures most often quoted in the NT & used by the early church.

Here it is translated "permanence":

Psa.49:19 Yet he shall come unto the generation of his fathers; Unto permanence, they shall not see light. (CLV)

permanently, "in a way that lasts or remains unchanged indefinitely"

"the state or quality of lasting or remaining unchanged indefinitely. "the clarity and permanence of the dyes" "

Here netsach is used of finite duration that had already ended & is translated "perpetually":

Amos 1:11 Thus, saith Yahweh, Because of three transgressions of Edom, and because of four, will I not turn it back,—Because he pursued, with the sword, his brother, and stifled his compassions, and his anger tare in pieces evermore, and, his indignation, kept watch perpetually[5331]

There is no endless punishment in Psa.49:19.

...Psalm 86:9
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalm 22:27-28
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations.

Psalm 72:17
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

Psalm 145:9-10
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Psalm 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light,
And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
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Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33: The Hebrew word mistranslated "For ever" above is Strong's Hebrew word #5331, netsach. The Hebrew of Psa.49:19 has "until"[5704] "a goal"[5331]:
There is no endless punishment in Psa.49:19.
wrong it is the eon G165.
They are laid in sheol like sheep.
Man in honor without understanding is like the beasts that perish, but the righteous remnant trusts in God: his soul is redeemed from the power of the grave. [DARBY]

Jude 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 

Jude 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 

Daniel 11:6 'And at the end of years they do join themselves together, and a daughter of the king of the south doth come in unto the king of the north to do upright things; and she doth not retain the power of the arm; and he doth not stand, nor his arm; and she is given up, she, and those bringing her in, and her child, and he who is strengthening her in these times.

Daniel 11:40 'And at the time of the end, push himself forward with him doth a king of the south, and storm against him doth a king of the north, with chariot, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he hath come in to the lands, and hath overflowed, and passed over,

This belief accords also with all the probabilities of the case. Under these circumstances, many commentators have supposed that this portion of the chapter Daniel 11:40-45 could not refer to Antiochus, and they have applied it to Anti-christ, or to the Roman power. [BARNES] Roman power = Modern day USA

And at the time of the end,.... At the end of the time appointed of God, when antichrist is arrived to the height of his power and authority: [GILL]

The King of the North [Present day Syria with Russian assistance [Put]].
Psalms 49:19, 20 It cometh to the generation of his fathers, For ever they see not the light.
20 Man in honour, who understandest not, Hath been like the beasts, they have been cut off! H1820 דָּמָה
A primitive root; to be dumb or silent; hence to fail or perish; transitively to destroy: - cease, be cut down (off), destroy, be brought to silence, be undone, X utterly.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand - This refers to the winnowing mentioned in the preceding verse. Some of the versions have, The ungodly shall not arise in the judgment - they shall have no resurrection, except to shame and everlasting contempt.
But probably the meaning is, When they come to be judged, they shall be condemned. They shall have nothing to plead in their behalf. That the impious were never to have any resurrection, but be annihilated, was the opinion of several among the Jews, and of some among Christians. [CLARKE]

2 Peter 2:5,6,7 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Leviticus 10:1,2 And the sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, take each his censer, and put in them fire, and put on it perfume, and bring near before Jehovah strange fire, which He hath not commanded them;
2 and fire goeth out from before Jehovah, and consumeth them, and they die before Jehovah.
 
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SkyWriting

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Love Omnipotent Crucified has all eternity & unlimited offers of salvation for each individual. Mathematically it's impossible for anyone to reject Him forever.

New International Version
For Christ's love compels us,

English Standard Version
For the love of Christ controls us

Berean Literal Bible
For the love of Christ compels us

New American Standard Bible
For the love of Christ controls us

King James Bible
For the love of Christ constraineth us


“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Your scripture doesn't address more than one incident or offer, and the writings of others have little value.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

John 3:16-18
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 13:50
And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


What Does the Bible Say About Hell? - OpenBible.info
 
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Your scripture doesn't address more than one incident or offer, and the writings of others have little value.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

John 3:16-18
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 13:50
And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


What Does the Bible Say About Hell? - OpenBible.info


Those mistranslated pro endless hells boys club theologically driven biased errant translations (paraphrases, interpretations) have been addressed many times before. Search the forums. For example:

You keep waffling on many things here DA. Everyone reading can see it.
If scripture is the word of God and those scriptures tell us Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world who else but God is telling you Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world? Thus every verse I quoted is a quote from God.
So again I will ask you what greater testimony do you need before you will believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world? <end>
No waffles I prefer pancakes. Do you believe that,

“the whole world is under the control of the evil one” 1 John 5:19
“Satan, who leads the whole world astray” Revelation 12:9
“The whole world … followed the beast” Revelation 13:3
“Diana …, whom all Asia and the world worships.” Acts of the apostles 19:27
Satan is “the god of this world.” 2 Corinthians 4:4

Are you now a Calvinist & you believe Jesus being the Savior of the world means only the lucky ones God determined to be the elect? Does Jn.1:29 mean by "world" only some? Do you believe in the limited atonement theory?

What we still do not have is any Bible writer directly quoting God or Jesus saying that all mankind good and bad, will be saved.

God or Jesus? God is Jesus. And His inspired Scriptures have made it clear all will be saved (Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).

But here is what Jesus Himself says,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these [on the left] shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

Compare:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Clearly the Greek/Hebrew words mistranslated "everlasting", "eternal" & "forever" in pro endless hell biased translations do not always mean what they seem to mean, e.g.:

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo.21:6)

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/l
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...in-duration-with-aionion-in-mt-25-46.8069208/


• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50


Lame. Nothing there says anyone will suffer endless tortures. Jesus could have easily expressed such a thought, if that was His belief. Since He never does, He doesn't believe such a thing. See also:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sition-to-endless-hell.8042016/#post-72141156


• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna

• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.


• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


.....Unlike the UR crowd I consider Jesus to be the standard not Paul or John or other NT writers. I interpret the writings of Paul et al. to agree with what Jesus said. On the other hand UR-ites reinterpret the words of Jesus so that they do not mean what they literally say in order to make them agree with the UR interpretation of Paul et al.

All Scripture is inspired of God. Paul is in harmony with what the 4 Gospels & Jesus say about the Lord being the Savior of the world, of all mankind. For Paul's inspired words of truth are from the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html


---


https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ure-supports-it.8072784/page-34#post-73059893
 
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SkyWriting

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Those mistranslated pro endless hells boys club translations have been addressed many times before.

Not one of those translating teams have your claimed agenda.
And there is not reason to blame any team at all.
Only blame yourself.

46
And
they
will go away
into
eternal
punishment,
but
the
righteous
into
eternal life.”

kai
46 καὶ
46 And
46 Conj
565 [e]
apeleusontai
ἀπελεύσονται
will go away
V-FIM-3P
3778 [e]
houtoi
οὗτοι
these
DPro-NMP
1519 [e]
eis
εἰς
into
Prep
2851 [e]
kolasin
κόλασιν
punishment
N-AFS
166 [e]
aiōnion
αἰώνιον ;
eternal
Adj-AFS
3588 [e]
hoi
οἱ
-
 
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Not one of those translating teams have your claimed agenda.

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.

What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

https://www.concordant.org/expositions/the-eons/eon-indefinte-duration-part-three/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/
 
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