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Featured If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What if they change their mind postmortem? Then your God will still reject them, so he is the rapist you described, since he is forcing people away from him who don't want to be away from him, but wit him. So you're God is just like the Calvinist God you described as a forcing rapist.


    You assume:

    (1) they will somehow know they have an infinite number of chances. The fact is that God doesn't have to give them that knowledge. So your whole argument fails right there.

    (2) you ignore the fact that they are suffering in hell which naturally motivates a human to want to end that suffering. Since salvation is the only way to do so, they must seek & find salvation to be delivered from their sufferings. With God's mercy, grace & evangelism in hell, they will be able to make choices for or against salvation. If they refuse salvation, then their sufferings in hell will justly continue.

    I said:

    People in this life don't know when "their chances run out", so how would they know postmortem?

    What is that supposed to mean, that you have no rational answer to my comment?

    Do you have a point to make?

    And thereafter God will be "all in all" & all in Adam will be "in Christ" (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19, etc), so everyone will be in the book of life.


    Evidently that was false, since you say they'll have freewill in hell to choose God, but God will force them to stay in hell anyway, thus making your "God" the tormentor for eternity & the endless rapist you described. Furthermore you said those in hell would be tormented by their thoughts of rejecting God, but what if they decided to always think happy thoughts instead? Then wouldn't hell become heaven. But, no, according to you they'll have these tormenting thoughts forever, so it must be your God forcing them to have those thoughts. Thereby making him the rapist you described once again.

    Who is forcing people in hell to be alone & separated from their friends in hell? What if they want to communicate with others there? Your "God" is forbidding it, once again causing their pain. Again, he is the rapist you described, forcing others against their will.

    In my view when people truly repent & receive salvation postmortem they are saved. But in your view Love Omnipotent’s love has expired on them & they are shipped off to endless torments, whether they want to or not. IOW, you’re making God the rapist you described.


    Man's mortal life premortem is finite. He can only commit a finite number of murders in such a life. He can only break the 10 commandments a finite number of times in that finite life. So his sins are finite within a finite time frame.

    Really? Where are these ideas coming from? Some people never hear the gospel in a lifetime. Unless the Lord draws a man, it's impossible for him to come to God. Saul, who was a persecutor, inquisitionist & muderer of Christians said he had acted ignorantly. Jesus said on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do".

    I posted:

    “How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

    “He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

    "It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

    I posted:

    What if they change their mind & decide they want salvation?

    You said those suffering in hell will have freewill to choose God. Why wouldn't they? Unless your "God" is force-raping them to be tormented forever.

    I posted:

    Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right?

    So now your "partly agreeing" with the possibility of universal salvation, eh?

    I posted:

    How does that address the question. You said in hell the wicked will be tormented by the knowledge of their rejecting God. Why don't they just ignore that & think happy thoughts. Then their "hell" will be heaven, right? Or does God force/rape them to think thoughts that will torment them forever?

    Who is bringing that upon them, if they are willed against it & thinking happy thoughts in hell? Will your "God" overpower their positive thinking & force-rape them to think thoughts that will torment them? Who, then, is the real tormentor?

    I asked:

    Does He remove their freewill to choose Him.


    I asked:

    Does He remove the freewill of the saints to sin,

    I asked:

    Does He remove the freewill of the saints to sin, thereby forcing them like one controls a puppet to stay in heaven forever?

    Why couldn't the saints in heaven choose to rebel just like Lucifer & his angels in heaven chose to rebel? Is God forcing the saints to stay in heaven whether they will it or not? Does freewill only matter before death? And then after death it's God force-raping everyone?

    I posted:

    I wonder who is slamming that door shut, forever. The One Who cuts off communications forever in saying depart forever?

    What if those in hell decide they want salvation?

    Wouldn't you want to be saved from your torments?

    I asked:

    So all those who never heard the gospel are going to be damned forever, even if they would have believed if they had ever heard it?

    So people can die without believing in Jesus & still accept Him postmortem?

    Says what? Unbelievers can be saved postmortem? Or they're damned even if they would have believed the gospel, if they had ever heard it, but they didn't hear it?

    I posted:

    In conclusion your views leads to either:

    1. God is not omnipotent but impotent, or
    2. God’s love expires like a carton of milk, or
    3. God is incredibly stupid, moreso than most normal IQ human beings, or
    4. God is like a rapist, or
    5. Some or all of the above.

    You try to dress up “endless conscious torments” (ECT) to look more respectable than the Calvinist or Double Predestination viewpoints. But when the sheepskins are removed from the wolf, a wolf is exposed as still being a wolf, no matter how you dress it up. Either way, ECT is clearly not the fault of any God created being, but of the ECT “God”.


    No, Love Omnipotent isn't a magician. He's far more powerful than that. He's a miracle worker!

    These many solar systems & billions of stars don't look like the work of an impotent god or one who will lose a war of the wills with weak little human beings:


    This makes even less sense than your argument re the garden of Eden refuting universalism.

    He doesn't do that in this life, so why would he separate those in hell from one another, & their friends there, except to cause them the suffering of loneliness? Making your "God", once again, the cause of torments. And the force-rapist you described.

    Why the need to separate Himself from the harmful in hell? Is your "God" too impotent to handle it? Will those in hell harm "Him"?

    In conclusion i'll reaffirm even more strongly my previous conclusions:

    In conclusion your views leads to either:

    1. God is not omnipotent but impotent, or
    2. God’s love expires like a carton of milk, or
    3. God is incredibly stupid, moreso than most normal IQ human beings, or
    4. God is like a rapist, or
    5. Some or all of the above.

    You try to dress up “endless conscious torments” (ECT) to look more respectable than the Calvinist or Double Predestination viewpoints. But when the sheepskins are removed from the wolf, a wolf is exposed as still being a wolf, no matter how you dress it up. Either way, ECT is clearly not the fault of any God created being, but of the ECT “God”.
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You've provided no reason or logic in support of your allegation. Why can't a loving God bring punishment that torments for the good & correction of people in hell, just as a loving father punishes his children who misbehave? It's not rocket science.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "If endless punishment were true, a loving God would have warned of it everywhere in the Bible. In fact, He would not restrict Himself to the Bible at all. He would supernaturally warn every single person on earth - whether in a dream, by revelation, through angels, or by whatever means is necessary" (Hope For All: Ten Reasons God's Love Prevails, Gerry Beauchemin, 2018, 200 pg, p.152).
     
  4. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    He did but many people do not listen that it is eternal annihilation.
    Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay in his bed. Then he wrote down the dream and told the sum of the matter.
    11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
     
  5. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    That "beast" that was killed was ancient Israel:


    ------->In Daniel 7:9-10, Daniel saw a throne scene in which “thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated,” and a court was also seated and books were opened. Verse 11 then comes back to the little horn and the fourth beast, saying,

    I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.”

    In this series I am making the case that the fourth beast/kingdom of Daniel and “the beast” of the book of Revelation was Zealot-led Israel. The language used here in this verse certainly fits, considering that Israel was destroyed in the Jewish-Roman War of 66-73, and considering that Jerusalem and the temple were burned with fire (fulfilling Matthew 22:7; II Peter 3:7, 10, 12; Revelation 17:16; 18:8-9, 18; 19:20). ~ https://adammaarschalk.com/2017/01/17/the-little-horn-changed-times-and-law-daniel-725/
     
  6. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Hebrews 10:26  For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 
    27  but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Who, or what, are the "adversaries"? The fallen nature of man? Sin? "Consume" what? The body? The soul? The sin, or fallen nature, or "old man" that must die before one becomes a "new creature" (or, "new creation") in Christ Jesus (2 Cor.5:17)?

    That sounds a lot like 1 Corinthians 3:13-17:

    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's
    work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Compare v.17 to

    1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    The context of Hebrews 10:26-27 reveals what the punishment is in those verses.

    Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

    10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated out of existence, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine who abandons forever the beings He created in His image & likeness so easily.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

    Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

    Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

    Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
    under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
    the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
    powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

    http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html


    "Adam Clarke Commentary

    "We are not cowards who slink away, and notwithstanding meet destruction; but we are faithful, and have our souls saved alive. The words περιποιησις ψυχης signify the preservation of the life. See the note, Ephesians 1:14. He intimates that, notwithstanding the persecution was hot, yet they should escape with their lives.

    "It is very remarkable, and I have more than once called the reader's attention to it, that not one Christian life was lost in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Every Jew perished, or was taken captive; all those who had apostatized, and slunk away from Christianity, perished with them: all the genuine Christians escaped with their lives. This very important information, which casts light on many passages in the New Testament, and manifests the grace and providence of God in a very conspicuous way, is given both by Eusebius and Epiphanius. I shall adduce their words: "When the whole congregation of the Church in Jerusalem, according to an oracle given by revelation to the approved persons among them before the war, κατα τινα χρησμον τοις αυτοθι δοκιμοις δι 'αποκαλυψεως δοθεντα προ του πολεμου, μεταναστηναι της πολεως, και τινα της περαιας πολιν οικειν κεκελευσμενου, Πελλαν αυτην ονομαζουσιν, were commanded to depart from the city, and inhabit a certain city which they call Pella, beyond Jordan, to which, when all those who believed in Christ had removed from Jerusalem, and when the saints had totally abandoned the royal city which is the metropolis of the Jews; then the Divine vengeance seized them who had dealt so wickedly with Christ and his apostles, and utterly destroyed that wicked and abominable generation." Euseb. Hist. Eccles, l. iii. c. v. vol. i. p. 93. Edit. a Reading.
    St. Epiphanius, in Haeres. Nazaren, c. 7, says: "The Christians who dwelt in Jerusalem, being forewarned by Christ of the approaching siege, removed to Pella."
    The same, in his book De Ponderibus et Mensuris, says: "The disciples of Christ being warned by an angel, removed to Pella; and afterwards, when Adrian rebuilt Jerusalem, and called it after his own name, Aelia Colonia, they returned thither." As those places in Epiphanius are of considerable importance, I shall subjoin the original: Εκειθεν γαρ ἡ αρχη γεγονε μετα την απο των Ἱεροσολυμων μεταστασιν, παντων των μαθητων των εν Πελλῃ ῳκηκοτων, Χριστου φησαντος καταλειψαι τα Ἱεροσολυμα, και αναχωρησαι, επειδη ημελλε πασχειν πολιορκιαν . Epiph. adver. Haeres., l. i. c. 7, vol. i. p. 123. Edit. Par. 1622. The other place is as follows: Ἡνικα γαρ εμελλεν ἡ πολις ἁλισκεσθαι ὑπο των Ῥωμαιων, προεχρηματισθησαν ὑπο Αγγελου παντες οἱ μαθηται μεταστηναι απο της πολεως, μελλουσης αρδην απολλυσθαι. Οἱ τινες και μετανασται γενομενοι ῳκησαν εν Πελλῃ - περαν του Ιορδανου, ἡ τις εκ Δεκαπολεως λεγεται ειναι . Ibid. De Pon. et Mens., vol. ii. p. 171.

    "These are remarkable testimonies, and should be carefully preserved. Pella, it appears, was a city of Coelesyria, beyond Jordan, in the district of Decapolis. Thus it is evident that these Christians held fast their faith, preserved their shields, and continued to believe to the saving of their lives as well as to the saving of their souls. As the apostle gives several hints of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem, it is likely that this is the true sense in which the words above are to be understood."

    https://www.studylight.org/commentary/hebrews/10-39.html
     
  8. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Look at the context of Hebrews:

    Notice the context of this chapter beginning with:

    Hebrews 10:19-20 (NKJV) Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,

    Every Bible student agrees that these words are addressed to and refer to believers.

    Hebrews 10:21-22 (NKJV) and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

    Again, there is no disagreement in interpreting this passage. All are agreed that only born-again believers have a high priest.

    Hebrews 10:23-25 (NKJV) Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

    No one will deny these words are addressed to believers. They are admonished to "hold fast their profession". Would a hypocrite be encouraged to hold fast his false profession? Up until now I have heard no objection:

    Hebrews 10:26-27 (NKJV) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

    Notice carefully what it says, "For if WE sin willfully". Who is the "we"? It is referring to the writer and his readers who are believers. By what rule of interpretation, reason, or logic can we make this refer to unsaved people? How can we say verses 19-25 applies to believers and then suddenly at verse 26 say these are make-believers? Who is this warning to?

    Notice in verse 26 that they "have received the knowledge of the truth". The word "knowledge" is from the Greek word epignosis, which means: "a personal, full knowledge". There is nothing in the New Testament usage of epignosis to encourage the idea that it can mean mere information about the truth. It's usual connotation is a genuine and personal knowledge: - David Curtis, Berean Bible Church
     
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  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The book of Hebrews was written to Hebrews (Jewish folks) who were being warned about leaving Christ & His sacrifice & going back to Judaism with its sacrificial system. In Judaism there did "no longer remain a sacrifice for sins" (v.26), since Christ's sacrifice had replaced those sacrifices. The sinners of v.26 needed to come back to Christ & His sacrifice for forgiveness & cleansing away of their sins by His blood.

    Otherwise they were on a path to judgement & fire that "will consume the adversaries". Being thrown in the lake of fire might "consume" or kill a mortal body. The remaining conscious soul there would still be subject to "torments" as per Rev.14:9-11; 20:10.

    Who, or what, are the "adversaries"? The fallen nature of man? Sin? "Consume" what? The body? The soul? The sin, or fallen nature, or "old man" that must die before one becomes a "new creature" (or, "new creation") in Christ Jesus (2 Cor.5:17)?

    That sounds a lot like 1 Corinthians 3:13-17:

    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's
    work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
     
  10. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Better tell David that!
    Acts of the Apostles 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand,

    You must first repent to know who God is
    .
    Acts of the Apostles 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 

    Matthew 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Luke 13:23  Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 

    Luke 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 

    Luke 13:25  When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't think so, sir. The Bible forbids trying to communicate with the dead.

    The M.O. of poster "he-man": post a verse (or list of verses). Then, after i answer them, ignore my answer & post another verse/verses.

    All of the "he-man" verses have been addressed before. See this thread & others where i have engaged the "he-man":

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ts-were-true-is-god-a-monster.8042349/page-26

    It seems absurd that Love Omnipotent the Good, who doeth Good, is Merciful, & a Savior, even the Savior of all mankind, creation & the cosmos, for Whom nothing is impossible, Who created a universe that spans a distance of billions of light years, is a sadist plus being an eternal Hitler-like gas chamber guy to all beings who haven't met His expiry date, & has an extremely soon coming expiry date on His love (not much longer than the expiry date on a carton of milk), & is impotent to save, or just too stupid in how He created those beings who are created to succeed in His will that all of them be saved.

    “How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

    “He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

    "It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

    According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

    Love will conquer all.

    As someone said:

    "annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  12. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    that all men should be saved NO! it says first repent
    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    WHY? he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed


    1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
    13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be a touch stone with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    10 And the false accuser that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be vexed day and night for ever and ever.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

    Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  14. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    Theses verses show us the end of the story which in reality will be the beginning of the new story.
    Bless God in the highest!
     
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  15. he-man

    he-man he-man

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  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Shempster: Glory to God in the highest indeed! The new story is "all the more" far reaching than the old.

    From Him, through Him, for Him.
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So they will miss out on a supper. One supper. Does that mean they are annihilated out of existence for all eternity? No.

    Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

    Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

    Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
    and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
    and the crooked shall be made straight,
    and the rough ways made smooth;
    Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.

    But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

    Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

    Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "ECT sees God sustaining evildoers forever, whereas EU eradicates evil entirely. Which of those is tolerating evil more??"
     
  19. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    It gives understanding to the simple Does that mean they are annihilated out of existence only if you have no understanding of simple things. Psalm 119:130 The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.

    Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    And the remnant were slain,.... Not only the kings of the earth, and their armies, that will now be gathered together, but all the remains of Papists, Pagans, and Mahometans, in the several parts of the world, even all the enemies of Christ: these will be slain [GILL]

    Psalm 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
    10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
    a potter’s vessel — when shivered cannot be mended, which will describe utter destruction. [BROWN]
    Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
    9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It seems "BROWN" has never heard of the Almighty God, Love Omnipotent:

    Lk.1:36Look, even Elizabeth your relative has conceived a son in her old age, and she who was called barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it happen to me according to your word.” Then the angel left her.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
     
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