• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    If God knew that without His forcing them to be saved, they would reject Him for all eternity & be tormented, then He would be a monster if He didn't force them to be saved. Similarly, many believe He will force aborted babies into heaven without their having chosen it of their own free will. Likewise, many believe He will force others in heaven to remain there forever without having a free choice to reject God as many angels of heaven once did. So, given that, forcing would not appear to be an issue with Love Omnipotent. At least not in the after life (i.e. after death, the hereafter).

    God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Therefore universal salvation is truth.

    It saves all. Though given only the choice between annihilation and a being getting endless torments, it would choose the more loving & merciful of the two. Therefore endless hell is a myth.

    If God created human beings such that they are (1) "eternally existing (as He Himself is)", so that it would be impossible to annihilate them even if Love Omnipotent wanted to, and (2) if He knew in advance that some of them would spend eternity rejecting Him, then (3) He is a monster for having created them that way.

    It's a logical argument. Is all logic fallen?

    Lk.12:57
    New American Standard Bible
    "And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
    King James Bible
    Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
    Douay-Rheims Bible
    And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just?

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me.

    According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

    1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    Talbott—Does God allow irreparable harm?
    Talbott—Does God allow irreparable harm?


    ******************************************************


    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

    Is there salvation after death?

    If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven


    "The love of God is greater far
    Than tongue or pen can ever tell
    It goes beyond the highest star
    And reaches to the lowest hell"

    The guilty pair, bowed down with care
    God gave His Son to win
    His erring child He reconciled
    And pardoned from his sin

    Could we with ink the ocean fill
    And were the skies of parchment made
    Were every stalk on earth a quill
    And every man a scribe by trade

    To write the love of God above
    Would drain the ocean dry
    Nor could the scroll contain the whole
    Though stretched from sky to sky

    Hallelujah
    Hallelujah
    Hallelujah

    O love of God, how rich and pure!
    How measureless and strong!
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

    +11,831
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    this is exactly what you posted in the other thread, just with more blog look links. same stuff we have already been over.
     
  3. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

    +7,620
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Sure for the man that wants to make up his own god in his own little mind this all works real well.

    For the ones that believe in the Bible it does not fit in whatsoever.

    Self-deception shows its evil head.

    M-Bob
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,966
    Anabaptist
    Why are anti-truth doctrines repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated again and again and again and again ?
    Because the enemy of life seeks to drag everyone down that he can, to keep little ones from seeking and finding the kingdom of heaven now while it is possible, so that they will die without hope, without forgiveness of sin, with no chance ever of serving Jesus nor of having eternal life.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  5. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

    +15,488
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    Clement: If you want to see God as a monster; go ahead.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  6. Randy777

    Randy777 Well-Known Member

    661
    +140
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    A loving God warns and warns upfront such as before the great tribulation 1260 days of testimony and rising from the dead will be given. (Rev 11) Signs that can't be mistaken. Yet we read that many in the world don't heed the two witnesses (Gods) warnings but take joy in their deaths.

    The demons knew their final outcome. Matt 8:29
    "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture (torment) us before the appointed time?"

    Likewise Jesus performed many great signs that God was with Him and desired to lead the people of Israel to eternal life.
    Yet:"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

    Even so its the good news of the gospels that is preached.That through Christ Jesus many can escape the 2nd death and receive eternal life.
     
  7. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +924
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The OP, ClementofA, quotes ArmyMatt: "...so He is a loving Father. the problem is you are judging God's love by fallen man's standards."

    Truly, men see through a glass darkly when they think a Creator God, Who stated that His creation was Very Good, would then consign part of His best creation to eternal suffering in Hellfire. He even told His prophet Jeremiah that He had not commanded such a thing as burning people alive. I tend to think that God operates by His own principles, so if He doesn't command us to do it, then He does not do it Himself.

    Your opinion on these things will depend on your view of God's power and intentions. I wrestled with this, wondering if God both wanted to and could save us. "Wanted to" was fairly easy, for He tells us that He wants all to come to salvation. But could He? Eventually, it came to me in a flash: with God, all things are possible, and besides, He is the Almighty. He can (and does) do anything.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • List
  8. Randy777

    Randy777 Well-Known Member

    661
    +140
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Actually I think we all are making judgments. We use the scriptures. Tormented and no rest night or day suggests awareness in the lake of fire not annihilation. (suffering)
     
  9. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

    +2,302
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    The scriptures tell us that He reveals Himself to a person based on the attributes of that person...

    Psalms 18:25-6 With the merciful you show yourself merciful; with the blameless man you show yourself blameless; with the purified you show yourself pure; and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous.

    You aren't telling us as much about the nature of God as you are telling us about your own nature, based on how He's revealed Himself to you.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  10. Randy777

    Randy777 Well-Known Member

    661
    +140
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Jesus showed mercy yet:
    And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
     
  11. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

    +573
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Others
    LOL -

    I suppose one could think of another being a MONSTER, when the other DEMANDS they be accountable and responsible for their OWN choices.

    Seriously, WHO wants to be accountable OR responsible for their OWN choices....WHEN it is SO MUCH EASIER to blame another?

    In this world...
    A man is not responsible for pulling the trigger....it's the guns fault.
    A man is not responsible for committing crimes....it's the drugs fault.
    A man is not responsible for not feeding his children....it's everyone else's fault for not giving him food.
    A man is not responsible for rejecting GOD...
    It's Gods fault for not forcing him to believe.

    LOL ~ The workings of the Carnal Mind and its conclusions are not news.
    But thanks for continually reaffirming how much your carnal mind benefits you, in avoiding responsibility for your own choices.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  12. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

    +818
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    So, you have left no room to be wrong in your thinking about God; because if you are wrong, you have called Him a monster. It is one thing to have different theology about what God will do, based on your reading of Scripture; but, this new trend of people projecting an image of God as something like a monster (and I've heard that before from a universalist)--because they used their God-given capacity as a created being to judge God--is just scary. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

    If God wanted to make it very clear that all would be saved, He could have. All He would have had to do is remove part of a verse. The alternative for John 3:16 would then read: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son so ALL MEN would have everlasting life." But, He didn't say that. God also had the ability to communicate through Jesus without saying anything about gehenna or hades; but, again, He didn't. And, Jesus is the One who gave the impression that we should fear "the One who can destroy both body and soul in hell."
     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,966
    Anabaptist
    Honestly? Do you really think that YHWH will break His Own Promise !?

    If He did as men want Him to do, fallen men lost in their own deception and sin,
    He would not be God, would He ?

    When He Says as all through His Word that those who have no faith are condemned, tossed in the lake of fire , PERISH (not saved),
    that's what He means -

    men because of emotional feelings the put as more important than God and God's Word,
    change the outcome in the disturbed/deceived/ lost souls

    so that loved ones who passed on already (died in sin and trespasses without forgiveness and without atonement for their sin)

    might be "thought" to have a chance to be saved (thus man's feelings and emotions soothed by the devil)
    when
    they were condemned while they were still alive. (as God and God's Word Says Clearly)

    This is a very common belief among pagans, but not in God's Word.
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,966
    Anabaptist
    Some people would rather call God a monster
    instead
    of admitting their sinful lives and repenting so they can be healed by Him and accept the fate of their loved ones who already died without hope and without forgiveness and guaranteed a place in the lake of fire according to God's Word, from which no one human nor demon ever returns.
     
  15. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +924
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yes, I understand that. In fact, I OVERstand that. Awareness in the Lake of Fire implies the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul, and correct me if I am wrong, but does that concept not come from pagan Greek philosophy? Further, you must be dead to go to Hell, as some believe, but to suffer eternal, conscious torment (ECT), you must be alive...but you're dead. It can be confusing.

    More confusion: To be a living soul in the LoF - alive, breathing, thinking, suffering - you must have a body infused with Spirit. God offered us no other way for us to be alive, except in the way He made Adam, or in the way we have been birthed since then. Now please realize that that Spirit of Life in all air-breathers is one of the Seven Spirits of God. That being so, the idea dawns on me of God's Spirit in the fire in us, and it opens up a can of theo-illogical worms that I don't care to open.
     
  16. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +924
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I'm not surprised that you quote only part of my post - if you had quoted it entire, it would be obvious that I do think that God observes His own rules, and thus, keeps His promises. If you have doubts, please re-read. Perhaps I should have been more explicit.

    I agree that God consigns the wicked and the lost to the LoF, where they do indeed perish/die. It does look very final in the Revelation, but that is not the end. For the end, see I Corinthians, chapter 15.

    We know how God treats the righteous...but what about the wicked? The pastor through whom I first really encountered Universalism admitted that the Bible appears to teach all three: Damnation, Annihilation and Reconciliation. Christians read that Book, and come away with the interpretation their theology has prepped them for. In the end, God will do according to His character, intents and eternal purposes.
     
  17. Randy777

    Randy777 Well-Known Member

    661
    +140
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I dont believe the book of Rev came from pagans. Also since Jesus preached to the spirits in prison that died in the days of Noah how many thousands of years are between the two events. We don't know what nourishes spirit nor the life span of spirit do we? What we do know is immortality in the life of a body is given by Jesus not something we are born with. As in the dead in Christ and those left alive on earth at the resurrection of us all are caught up and clothed with "immortality".

    Jesus would state He died yet He never dies "today you shall be with me in paradise" So death has context. Jesus's spirit did not die only the body. He was alive in the Spirit and preached to the spirits in prison.Truly if I read the soul was destroyed in the lake of fire I would have no problem supporting annihilationism.
     
  18. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +924
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I did not say the Revelation was written by a pagan, or contained pagan ideas. I do say that some of our interpretations of what we read in the Bible are colored by unacknowledged pagan ideas.
     
  19. Randy777

    Randy777 Well-Known Member

    661
    +140
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I stated my source was REV.
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,477
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    In addition to Luke 16:19-31. In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, have some kind of conscious awareness, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
    Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
    9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
    10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    [ . . . ]
    22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
    In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
    .....Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “
    proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional.
    .....For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
    .....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, have some kind of conscious awareness, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

    Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
    18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
    19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
    20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
    21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
    22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
    Eze 32:30-31
    (30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
    (31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
     
Loading...