• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

If baptism saves...

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,443
20,739
Orlando, Florida
✟1,509,643.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Thanks for the info! :)

Calvin also opposed baptism outside the Church, and was against the idea that baptism was a private rite. So the Reformed traditionally forbade baptism of infants in extremis. That is one big difference between Lutherans and Reformed, in terms of practice.

Up until recently, even Methodists and Anglicans had private baptisms, or "christenings" as they became known vulgarly. But it's a practice that has largely ended in most large Christian churches (including Catholics). Now people are encouraged to be baptized in a church service.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0

PsaltiChrysostom

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2018
1,047
1,005
Virginia
✟79,486.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Calvin also opposed baptism outside the Church, and was against the idea that baptism was a private rite. So the Reformed traditionally forbade baptism of infants in extremis. That is one big difference between Lutherans and Reformed, in terms of practice.

Up until recently, even Methodists and Anglicans had private baptisms, or "christenings" as they became known vulgarly. But it's a practice that has largely ended in most large Christian churches (including Catholics). Now people are encouraged to be baptized in a church service.
Orthodox will normally have baptisms after the Sunday Liturgy. It's about a 30 minute service and it takes time to get everything in place. The font needs to be filled, a table is brought over to put everything the priest needs, including olive oil, chrism, scissors for the tonsuring.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

ByTheSpirit

Come Lord Jesus
May 17, 2011
11,460
4,691
Manhattan, KS
✟198,604.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Water baptism is the means by which we are joined by faith in Christ.

"No man can enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born of Water and Spirit"... "Whoever believes AND IS baptized" those are Jesus words. (Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5)

"He saved us... by the WASHING of new birth and renewal"... "Baptized into Christ"... Christ gives us a new heart through baptism (Titus 3:5; Romans 6:1-5; Gal 3:27; Col 2:11-12) those are Paul's words.

"Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins" "Baptism now saves us" those are Peter's words (Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21)

It's not the act that saves, it's our faith working through the act that does. Not once in all of scripture does God do something for someone and not require them to act out in faith. God tells us that real faith is evidenced by our obedience (James 2:14-26; Hebrews 11). He says when you believe, go down into the water to die with my Son, then come up a new creation to live in righteousness (Romans 6:3-4).

I find it hard to believe any of that can be done by a child who doesn't even know how to speak yet, let alone reason and reckon themselves a sinner in need of a Savior.

I'm not against the practice of infant baptism, I just find it useless and pointless. It may even be dangerous, as it can give people a false sense of right standing with God because they were baptized as infants.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,519
8,183
50
The Wild West
✟760,183.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Orthodox will normally have baptisms after the Sunday Liturgy. It's about a 30 minute service and it takes time to get everything in place. The font needs to be filled, a table is brought over to put everything the priest needs, including olive oil, chrism, scissors for the tonsuring.

Interestingly, the Coptic Orthodox tend to baptize infants before the first, third and sixth* hours are read from the Agpeya, so usually at 0730, since the first hour happens at 0800 in most churches on Sunday. I believe this is done, along with Chrismation, before the hours and the Divine Liturgy begins so the infant can receive communion immediately, which is also an advantage to being baptized as an adult on Holy Saturday during the Vesperal Divine Liturgy of St. Basil - the large number of Old Testament lessons in both the Byzantine Rite and the pre-1952 Roman Rite are there for reasons of facilitating baptism.**

Some liturgical footnotes:

*These hours are followed by the Morning Raising of Incense, which is a relic of Cathedral Matins (there is also a morning Psalmody, which like evening Psalmody and Midnight Psalmody, is part of two sets of Monastic prayers in their liturgy, and then there are the first, third, sixth, ninth, eleventh (vespers), and twelfth (compline) hours in the Agpeya followed by another hour, the Prayer of the Veil, said in monasteries and by clergy before bedtime, which are also of monastic origin, but perhaps from a different monastic tradition, as the monks will memorize all the Psalms in the Agpeya and will recite them in a manner similar to Byzantine use of the Jesus Prayer, which has also now become popular largely thanks to Fr. Lazarus el Antony, an Australian convert who is the only monk deemed stable enough to live as a solitary near the cave of St. Anthony, where he serves the divine liturgy at midnight; Fr. Lazarus joined the Serbian Orthodox Church in Australia after reading The Seven Storied Mountain after the death of his mother as they were the only church with a monastery willing to let him visit and consider becoming a monk despite his former status as an atheist, and while there he had a comforting visit from the Theotokos.

Some might see his movement to the Coptic church as desertion or apostasy but I see it as important in facilitating EO-OO reunion, since he reintroduced the Jesus Prayer and was a participant in the revival of Coptic monasticism under Pope Shenouda.

**to this day, as no one has dared to change them in Orthodoxy or in any Eastern Catholic church I am aware of (although I know of one Melkite Cathedral, in Caracas, which is allegedly engaging in some gross liturgical abuses, like playing the marimba and putting icons on a bambo sort of thing rather than an iconostasis, and using some praise and worship music instead of the traditional hymns, but fortunately most Byzantine Catholics are now much closer to the Eastern Orthodox rubrics than they were before Vatican II, unlike what happened to the Maronites, who are now far removed from the Syriac Orthodox liturgy their rite used to closely resemble),
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,443
20,739
Orlando, Florida
✟1,509,643.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Interestingly, the Coptic Orthodox tend to baptize infants before the first, third and sixth* hours are read from the Agpeya, so usually at 0730, since the first hour happens at 0800 in most churches on Sunday. I believe this is done, along with Chrismation, before the hours and the Divine Liturgy begins so the infant can receive communion immediately, which is also an advantage to being baptized as an adult on Holy Saturday during the Vesperal Divine Liturgy of St. Basil - the large number of Old Testament lessons in both the Byzantine Rite and the pre-1952 Roman Rite are there for reasons of facilitating baptism.**

Some liturgical footnotes:

*These hours are followed by the Morning Raising of Incense, which is a relic of Cathedral Matins (there is also a morning Psalmody, which like evening Psalmody and Midnight Psalmody, is part of two sets of Monastic prayers in their liturgy, and then there are the first, third, sixth, ninth, eleventh (vespers), and twelfth (compline) hours in the Agpeya followed by another hour, the Prayer of the Veil, said in monasteries and by clergy before bedtime, which are also of monastic origin, but perhaps from a different monastic tradition, as the monks will memorize all the Psalms in the Agpeya and will recite them in a manner similar to Byzantine use of the Jesus Prayer, which has also now become popular largely thanks to Fr. Lazarus el Antony, an Australian convert who is the only monk deemed stable enough to live as a solitary near the cave of St. Anthony, where he serves the divine liturgy at midnight; Fr. Lazarus joined the Serbian Orthodox Church in Australia after reading The Seven Storied Mountain after the death of his mother as they were the only church with a monastery willing to let him visit and consider becoming a monk despite his former status as an atheist, and while there he had a comforting visit from the Theotokos.

Some might see his movement to the Coptic church as desertion or apostasy but I see it as important in facilitating EO-OO reunion, since he reintroduced the Jesus Prayer and was a participant in the revival of Coptic monasticism under Pope Shenouda.

**to this day, as no one has dared to change them in Orthodoxy or in any Eastern Catholic church I am aware of (although I know of one Melkite Cathedral, in Caracas, which is allegedly engaging in some gross liturgical abuses, like playing the marimba and putting icons on a bambo sort of thing rather than an iconostasis, and using some praise and worship music instead of the traditional hymns, but fortunately most Byzantine Catholics are now much closer to the Eastern Orthodox rubrics than they were before Vatican II, unlike what happened to the Maronites, who are now far removed from the Syriac Orthodox liturgy their rite used to closely resemble),

I didn't know that the Copts did not always say the Jesus Prayer.

There's a BBC series that had Fr. Lazarus in an episode. It was about an Anglican vicar, Peter Owen Jones, traveling the world and participating in different religions to learn about them (I believe it was called Extreme Pilgrim). Fr. Lazarus seemed like an unassuming, friendly, and generous man.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,519
8,183
50
The Wild West
✟760,183.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I didn't know that the Copts did not always say the Jesus Prayer.

There's a BBC series that had Fr. Lazarus in an episode. It was about an Anglican vicar, Peter Owen Jones, traveling the world and participating in different religions to learn about them (I believe it was called Extreme Pilgrim). Fr. Lazarus seemed like an unassuming, friendly, and generous man.

My understanding is the Jesus Prayer was in abeyance for a time, but remember, the prayer Kyrie Eleison is literally a shortened version of the Jesus Prayer, or rather the Jesus Prayer could be considered a longer version of it, and so the use of the Kyrie as an arrow prayer is ancient. The Syriac Orthodox have also used the Ave Maria for a long time, and the Magnificat, and there is also an Eastern Orthodox / Greek Catholic version of it fairly similar to the Roman Catholic version:

Theotokos Virgin, rejoice, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, for you have borne the Saviour of our souls.

Another English translation of the same text reads:

Mother of God and Virgin, rejoice, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast given birth to the Saviour of our souls.

Indeed, it was Extreme Pilgrim, but he did a follow up series called Around the World in 80 Faiths some of the highlights of which included a visit to Mandaeans who had to flee Iraq in Sydney, a visit to a Mevlevi (whirling dervish) cema in Aleppo which no longer exists due to the Old City being completely destroyed, a visit to Yazidis in Iraq before the ISiS genocide which probably killed some of them shown on the screen (the main temple he visited survived, but the Yazidi town of Sinjar was annhilated, with all the men killed and the women and children sold into slavery), a visit to a traditional synagogue in Lithuania, a visit to the Alevis in Istanbul who have an identity crises as some identify as Sunni Muslims but others identify with the Ishikism movement, a grouping of indigenous Kurdish and Persian religions that also includes the Bektasi Sufis, the Yazidis, the Yarsanis (some of whom, unlike the Yazidis, because of their contempt for Islam, identify as worshippers of the Islamic conception of the devil; there is a probable connection between Yazidism and Yarsanism and a Syrian Christian heresy called Ophiteism, since the Peacock Angel has Christlike attributes and Yazidis at least reportedly practice baptism and the Eucharist in addition to their other rites such as circumcision and praying to the Sun and various peculiar rites in the temples; the Yazidis also sheltered Armenians during the Turkish Genocide and were allowed to settle in Armenia, where they are the largest ethnic minority.

Then, the very best part was his visit to Holy Savior’s Cathedral in Moscow, participating in a 36 hour vigil for the patronal feast of an Ethiopian Orthodox Church (Ethiopian services can be spectacularly long, and he had to take a nap in the BBC’s truck at one point), and to a baptism among the Sammi people (Lapplanders) at a Lutheran church in Norway, and a visit to one of the two ancient Benedictine monasteries damaged in the horrible earthquake recently, although he made it a bit depressing by going to the less traditionalist one which is suffering from a lack of vocations, implying they are dying out, ignoring the nearby ancient monastery that has the Tridentine mass and the old Benedictine Divine Office and has grown considerably in recent years.

The nadir of his trip included an attempted visit to some Aboriginal Australians to encounter the dreamtime religion, but he visited a group which had, glory to God, converted to Christianity and only practiced the ritual of exposing an infant to fragrant smoke on the belief that it promotes health, as opposed to religious reasons - that they no longer practiced dreamtime made me happy but made him sad, then a visit to some absurd witches in Sydney where he felt compelled to dance naked with them, and also other instances where he participated rather too much in occult religions and idolatry, and in some cases visited groups which are extremely obscure and also a drug cult in Brazil called Santo Daime, and some of these were pretty cringey, and at times one felt as though he had been conned into believing a particular sect was more important or authentic than it actually was. The worst moment however was when he danced through the streets of Moscow with some Hare Krishnas.

The series ended with him running back to his parish to resume his life as an Anglican service, perhaps implying that he did not find the grass on the other side of the fence to be greener, however, there are serious moral and ethical issues raised by the extent to which, in Extreme Pilgrim and especially Around The World in 80 Faiths, he actually participated in Pagan and occult and non-Christian worship rituals, as opposed to merely observing them. According to the canon law of the early church, any presbyter who prays even with heretics is to be deposed, and based on the fact that he did this about 74 times, since if I recall correctly he visited at most six non-heterodox Christian churches, while the ancient canons prohibited priests from being excommunicated in addition to being deposed for the same offense that would cause a layman to be excommunicated on the basis that the canon law of the early church prohibited punishing people twice for the same offense, since there were so many offenses committed if someone had done that in the early church, or in any Eastern or Oriental Orthodox church at present, or in one of the more traditional Anglican churches like the Church of Ghana, the Archdiocese of Sydney, or the Continuing Anglicans in the US, or the LCMS or especially WELS, or the SBC or PCA or OPC or the Assyrian Church of the East or the Ancient Church of the East or the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, a member of the Anglican communion (inexplicably, in his visit to India he neglected to visit any of the Christians, despite the fact that Christianity has been in India for about three times longer than Sikhism and has more members than Sikhism and Jainism combined, both of which he did visit, as well as Zoroastrianism where as anyone could have told him, he was unable to get good footage due to the secrecy of the Zoroastrians in India, unlike their Persian counterparts, who are quite open, and more endangered in terms of their declining numbers, although apparently not at risk from the Iranian government. It was all very cringey in that respect. And the cringe could have been avoided had he not actually participated in the services but focused on documenting them.

But really the fault as I see it lies with his bishop. By his own admission, in Extreme Pilgrim episode II, he rarely sees his bishop, whereas a typical Orthodox priest in the US is in routine contact with their bishop as episcopal approval is needed for all sorts of things, for example, getting approval for someone who is not clergy to enter the altar behind the iconostasis for various purposes, and ordaining boys as altar servers, which requires tonsuring, and in general most Orthodox parishes get a hierarchical divine liturgy on average once a year, and there are some retired bishops who serve as parish priests, since you can’t really retire as a bishop, since you are still a member of the monastery and all your property belongs to the church. Proper episcopal supervision would have told him to observe and document but not participate. That his bishop was not intimately involved really makes his bishop the person who I would regard as canonically culpable if the Church of England were to follow the canon laws of the Early Church, which I strongly believe it should, at least those of the first three ecumenical councils, the Council of Laodicea, parts of the Second Council of Nicaea, and some wise canons from the Council of Trullo, for example, the canon prohibiting priests from administering the financial affairs of their parishioners, which is a really good idea, and of course also the apostolic canons and those included in the Didache and/or the Didascalia.

I actually feel very sorry for Fr. Peter Owen Jones, because he was acutely traumatized by some of the experiences he had in the filing of Around the World in 80 Faiths, for example, he had to witness the sacrificial slaughter of a llama in Bolivia and even worse things in a pair of Voudon cults in Benin, and was traumatized by a UFO cult in Brasilia, among other deeply unpleasant moments he endured. More careful planning and a bishop who cared enough to tell him to not actually participate in the rituals of the non-Christian or heterodox religions would have spared him a lot of real spiritual stress.

Since that time he has done an interesting documentary called The Simple Life in which he spent some time attempting to live without money in contemporary Britain. I would greatly enjoy meeting him, and to be clear, I am not calling for him to be subjected to the canonical penalties that the early church might have, for various reasons, not the least of which being that the early church would likely have primarily held his bishop to account for the disasters, because just as the captain of a ship is responsible for the actions of his crew, the bishop is responsible for the conduct of his presbyters, deacons and other clergy.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,443
20,739
Orlando, Florida
✟1,509,643.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I actually liked watching Around the World in 80 Faiths. It lead me to following Peter Owen Jones in general.

Most of the things Jones participated in didn't bother him that much, but a few he walked out of. While he was keeping an open mind, he also had some admitted boundaries he was uncomfortable crossing.

The Brazilian religions were actually the most fascinating. I wouldn't say he thought the UFO religion was traumatizing, but he clearly experienced something that took him out of his frame of reference. Something private that he didn't think would be right to share. His Santo Daime experience looked really interesting, especially how he recognized the familiarity of the experience.

The Simple Life was another great series. I like how he was willing to get his romantic notions challenged by other religious perspectives. Especially where he interviewed actual Franciscan monks.

Overall, I really appreciate how Jones wants to explore religious topics first hand. I think that's very important in actually understanding something: coming to grips with the phenomenology. And it was very generous of Fr. Lazar to share that bit of the Coptic religious experience with the outside world.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,519
8,183
50
The Wild West
✟760,183.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I actually liked watching Around the World in 80 Faiths. It lead me to following Peter Owen Jones in general.

Most of the things Jones participated in didn't bother him that much, but a few he walked out of. While he was keeping an open mind, he also had some admitted boundaries he was uncomfortable crossing.

The Brazilian religions were actually the most fascinating. I wouldn't say he thought the UFO religion was traumatizing, but he clearly experienced something that took him out of his frame of reference. Something private that he didn't think would be right to share. His Santo Daime experience looked really interesting, especially how he recognized the familiarity of the experience.

The Simple Life was another great series. I like how he was willing to get his romantic notions challenged by other religious perspectives. Especially where he interviewed actual Franciscan monks.

Overall, I really appreciate how Jones wants to explore religious topics first hand. I think that's very important in actually understanding something: coming to grips with the phenomenology. And it was very generous of Fr. Lazar to share that bit of the Coptic religious experience with the outside world.

To be clear, I really enjoyed Extreme Pilgrim and Around the World in 80 Faiths, but there were several dubious examples he included, where one felt like he was visiting an insignificant cult that was not worthy of the attention he was giving it, and some sections were rather too long; some, like his commentary on the Baha’i Faith, were factually incorrect and also naive (would he like the Baha’is as much if he knew that they no longer allow you to remain a part of your former religion, and haven’t for many decades, and that the new law promulgated by Ba’hu’allah in the Book of Splendour which the Universal House of Justice in Haifa, near the Shrine of the Bab he visited, which is limited to male members, has, as its ultimate goal, the implementation of, specifies that arsonists should be burned alive, among other horrors, and that the Baha‘i Faith while a definite improvement on Islam is still a cult, for example. So a more balanced perspective, especially given the harsh criticism he subjected some South African Calvinists, the Korean Pentecostals, and other Christians to, as well as Jews and Muslims and the Sikhs, which was frankly unwarranted, on the Bahai’s, would be an example of the nuance that was largely lacking. Also his silly dancing with the Hare Krishnas in Moscow so he could score a cheap shot at Eastern Orthodoxy was absurd, given that the Hare Krishnas are a notorious and dangerous cult on a par with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and are basically like if you removed the violence, bioterrorism and gross criminality from the the Neo-Sanyassins who worshipped the Baghwan, or Osho as he later called himself after his deportation from the US.

And to reiterate, I don’t think his bishop should have allowed him to participate in any non-Christian religious ceremonies. It is prohibited under the most ancient canon laws of the early church for anyone in Holy Orders to do that. And I really like Fr. Peter Owen Jones, I feel he needs our prayers, because the spiritual progress he may have made with Fr. Lazarus in Extreme Pilgram and Fr. Hiylam of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church in Around the World in 80 Faiths would have helped, to be clear, but it is still extremely dangerous participating in occult activities. Especially his participation in the nude witchcraft ritual, his khat chewing with the Ethiopian Muslims, his encounters in Latin America, and in Extreme Pilgrim, everything he did in India, is really quite spiritually dangerous. And as for Voudon, well, he was clearly traumatized by that, but Voudon is notoriously toxic and one should avoid going anywhere near actual Voudon ceremonies, temples and fetish markets, as well as those of derivative religions such as the Louisiana and Caribbean varieties of Voodoo, the Hoodoo and JuJu engaged in in the Deep South, and related animist-shamanist religions. He was also lucky not to have been killed in a collapse in the Bolivian silver mine, and the offering he purchased which was made to El Tio, which is the devil, is extremely dangerous. Unless Church of England bishops are totally indifferent about the welfare of their priests, I just can’t imagine how his bishop thought it would be a good idea to give him Carte Blanche to participate in the rites of arbitrary religions, sects and cults.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,519
8,183
50
The Wild West
✟760,183.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I actually liked watching Around the World in 80 Faiths. It lead me to following Peter Owen Jones in general.

Most of the things Jones participated in didn't bother him that much, but a few he walked out of. While he was keeping an open mind, he also had some admitted boundaries he was uncomfortable crossing.

The Brazilian religions were actually the most fascinating. I wouldn't say he thought the UFO religion was traumatizing, but he clearly experienced something that took him out of his frame of reference. Something private that he didn't think would be right to share. His Santo Daime experience looked really interesting, especially how he recognized the familiarity of the experience.

The Simple Life was another great series. I like how he was willing to get his romantic notions challenged by other religious perspectives. Especially where he interviewed actual Franciscan monks.

Overall, I really appreciate how Jones wants to explore religious topics first hand. I think that's very important in actually understanding something: coming to grips with the phenomenology. And it was very generous of Fr. Lazar to share that bit of the Coptic religious experience with the outside world.

To be clear, I like Fr. Peter Owen Jones and I agree with much of your praise of what he has done. My concern is that in Episode 2 of Extreme Pilgrim, and virtually every episode of Around the World in 80 Faiths, he did things which are spiritually unhealthy for Christians. He should not have engaged in Islamic prayer, he should not have consumed khat or “Santo Daime” , he should not have put himself under the spiritual care of a guru, and franklY its not his fault, since in a church with an episcopal polity, the bishops are supposed to protect their priests.

Likewise, if Fr. Thomas Merton did commit suicide, and there is much reason to believe that happened in the wake of a ”powerful experience” he had viewing idols of the Buddha, I think he would not be culpable, but rather his superior at the Trappist abbey, and other persons in leadership positions, who finally agreed after years of lobbying by Merton to let him visit a Buddhist monastery.

I myself have an interest in meeting Bishop Stephen Hoeller of the Ecclesia Gnostica, as he is a charming Hungarian who has expertise in subjects that interest me, but before even considering it, I first obtained guidance from my gerons (my father confessor) about what precautions to take, such as not joining in any prayers if I attended their liturgy, and since they are no longer in their own building but rather in a building with a history of connection to various occult movements in Los Angeles, I am not sure I want to see one of his services in person, at least not if it involves going there.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,937
3,986
✟385,585.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
If baptism saves I don't understand how baptizing babies could be efficacious. It seems to say that the baby is saved because of the faith and actions of their parents, and not their own faith and love for God. How does that make sense?
Perhaps because there's a corporate aspect to human salvation that makes sense in the same way that this makes sense:
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Acts 16:31

Either way, the early church knew no other way besides faith and baptism (the "sacrament of faith"). That's the teaching they received and the ECFs are unanimous in this belief as well.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Aaron112

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2022
5,351
1,339
TULSA
✟115,487.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
If baptism saves I don't understand how baptizing babies could be efficacious. It seems to say that the baby is saved because of the faith and actions of their parents, and not their own faith and love for God. How does that make sense?
Who said it made sense ?
 
Upvote 0

ByTheSpirit

Come Lord Jesus
May 17, 2011
11,460
4,691
Manhattan, KS
✟198,604.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If baptism saves I don't understand how baptizing babies could be efficacious. It seems to say that the baby is saved because of the faith and actions of their parents, and not their own faith and love for God. How does that make sense?
without reading any of the responses thus far, and being someone who doesn't believe in the practice myself, I've always understood infant baptism as being something that imparts grace to the child, like a dedication of sorts or a committal of the infant to the Lord. Not something that "saves them". I guess it's sorta like the act of circumcision, where the infant is circumcised as a sign of the covenant.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,519
8,183
50
The Wild West
✟760,183.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Who said it made sense ?

The vast majority of Christians worldwide, including all Christians before the 16th century, when the Anabaptist movement appeared in Germany.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,519
8,183
50
The Wild West
✟760,183.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Perhaps because there's a corporate aspect to human salvation that makes sense in the same way that this makes sense:
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Acts 16:31

Either way, the early church knew no other way besides faith and baptism (the "sacrament of faith"). That's the teaching they received and the ECFs are unanimous in this belief as well.

Indeed, furthermore @OkieAllDay infants who are baptized, and in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian and Eastern Catholic tradition we also immediately chrismate (confirm) them with Holy Chrism as the seal of the Holy Spirit and give them Holy Communion, and this in addition to ensuring the salvation of the infant should he or she die before reaching maturity, also protects them from demonic possession, because demons in their cruelty do not spare infants or small children. Indeed the baptismal liturgy includes a brief but efficacious set of exorcisms, in which the water and the salt placed in the font in the shape of a cross are both exorcised “We beseech the O Lord to exorcise these creatures of water and salt” and also the infant Himself is exorcised, but not using the lengthy exorcism prayers of the Roman Rite or of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom, but rather with a simple prayer known to be efficacious in forcing the disembarkation of any demons trying to get onboard an infant being baptized, and then when you add in the seal of the Holy Spirit through Chrismation and then serve Holy Communion, which infants are able to noetically, although not intellectually in most cases, discern as the Body and Blood of our Lord, and it is the noetic benefits we are after.*

*For this reason the Coptic Orthodox Church in particular makes a point of doing baptizing and chrismation of infants before beginning the regular Sunday morning services, which consist of the prayers of the First, Third and Sixth Hour (which were in antiquity, and at some monasteries still are, said at 7 AM, 9 AM and 12 PM), known in the Western Church as Prime, Terce and Sext, each of which in the Coptic Rite is invariant except during Holy Week, when a different version is used, and the regular version takes about ten-fifteen minutes to do in a parish, with each person being assigned some of the Psalms to pray silently, and a Gospel lesson, then there is a form of Cathedral Matins known as the Morning Raising of Incense which takes thirty minutes, and then the Eucharistic liturgy, which includes five scripture lessons rather than the three you get at a typical Protestant church using the Revised Common Lectionary, including a lesson from Acts**, a lesson from the Pauline Epistles, a lesson from the Catholic Epistles***, and a lesson from the Gospel, followed by the consecration and reception of Holy Communion.



** The Coptic Orthodox call this lesson the Praxis, because the Book of Acts shows among other things how the early Church worked.

*** This is the term used by all scholars to refer to those epistles not written by the Holy Apostle Paul; it has nothing specifically to do with the Roman Catholic Church, but just refers to 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and James, and in some cases Hebrews, but the Copts go with the mainstream opinion and credit Hebrews to the Holy Apostle Paul, even though its actual authorship is unknown; in a recent thread on CF.com the consensus was the epistle was based on a sermon of St. Paul but written by St. Luke the Evangelist, due to the elegance of its Greek prose, as St. Luke is known to have written the most elegant Greek of any of the New Testament authors; a recent translation of the New Testament in my library by Dr. David Bentley Hart is brilliant because it seeks to preserve the literary style of the Apostles as well as what they wrote.
 
Upvote 0

Stephen3141

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2023
1,425
552
69
Southwest
✟100,195.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
If baptism saves I don't understand how baptizing babies could be efficacious. It seems to say that the baby is saved because of the faith and actions of their parents, and not their own faith and love for God. How does that make sense?

Even babies, went through the great sign of baptism, in the Exodus
(crossing through the Red Sea).

Christian groups that baptize babies, also have a ceremony of
Confirmation, at which the new adult must choose to enter the
People of God, as an adult.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,519
8,183
50
The Wild West
✟760,183.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Even babies, went through the great sign of baptism, in the Exodus
(crossing through the Red Sea).

Christian groups that baptize babies, also have a ceremony of
Confirmation, at which the new adult must choose to enter the
People of God, as an adult.

Actually in Orthodoxy we perform confirmation, or Chrismation as we call it,
immediately after baptism, and when receiving converts, due to the noetic benefits of this sacrament. This is also the case in most of the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches, such as the Byzantine Catholics, Melkite Catholics, Maronite Catholics and the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, which are part of the Roman Catholic Church but use various eastern liturgical rites such as the Byzantine Rite, and variations of the Coptic/Alexandrian Rite, the West Syriac Rite, the East Syriac Rite, the Ethiopian Rite and the Armenian Rite.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,897
14,168
✟458,328.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Baptism marks a person's formal entry into the Church, which is the Ark of Salvation. It is interesting to me to read the objections or confusion surrounding this practice from those whose traditions do not practice it, because it seems like much is made of the babies' lack of ability to consent to or reject this entry, yet in the Coptic Orthodox baptismal rite, a key part of the dialogue is asking the parents of the baby to affirm what is said, to which they are to reply "We/I have believed for her/him" (referring to the baby being baptized). Probably a lot of people will ask, quite reasonably, how it is that a person can believe for someone else. Is this not incredibly strange, even if we give it the most charitable interpretation that we can? Possibly from the outside looking in, it would be. But it underlines a key aspect of infant baptism that I think might be missed in the minds of those against the practice: that the baptism is not just the baby or babies being entered formally into the Church; it is also the time for the parents to renew and testify to their own faith, and make a public declaration on their part to raise the child in that faith. It is also a time for the community into which the child is being received to rejoice at the introduction of a new life into the bosom of the Church; it is many things. If it were only a matter of the individual baby and the individual priest, acting somehow in a manner disconnected from the wider community that makes up the Church in a given location, then maybe such concerns as the child's inability to intellectually consent would make sense, but it is of course never, ever like that in practice, except perhaps in emergency situations where the formal rite of baptism must be abbreviated or skipped entirely due to outside circumstances (e.g., if the baby is deathly ill before the standard 60/80-day mark at which we normally baptize babies, according to the custom of the Church).

I believe that when baptism is properly understood as a community-wide event, it becomes much more understandable why some traditions baptize infants. Especially in the eastern and oriental churches, where the reception of communion is included in the day's events when a child is baptized, it would seem very odd and improper to delay baptism to an age when children can intellectually affirm anything. We do not ask for our children's permission when we feed them earthly food, do we? So how much more should we be insistent upon them being fed with the true food of Christ's holy body and precious blood!
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord,” will be saved
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
May 15, 2017
27,377
7,927
Tampa
✟946,818.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Michael-Ca

New Member
Oct 20, 2023
3
0
48
Arizona
✟15,703.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Baptism is more than saving a soul. Baptism is making a commitment to Christ. A public declaration to devotion of our life to God through holy works in Christianity.
Unfortunately, most people who are baptized do not commit their life to Christ. They assume because of the baptism that they can sin for the rest of life and then ask for forgiveness seconds before they die. Forgiveness requires works in the church.
 
Upvote 0