LDS If a universal apostasy really happened?

He is the way

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So you believe in a kind of Limited Atonement? Jesus didn't die for everyone, but only for those who would eventually be obedient to God's commandments?

-CryptoLutheran
The atonement is not limited, but people limit themselves by the choices they make. We can be sheep or goats. We can LOVE Christ by keeping the commandments or choose not to:

(New Testament | John 14:21)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Who will receive His mercy?

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 82:10)

10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

(Old Testament | 1 Kings 8:23)

23 And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

(New Testament | James 2:5)

5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
 
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dzheremi

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Christ's commandments ≠ The Commandments of Joseph Smith/The Mormon religion, so that's a non-starter.

Nice reminder to all of us that you can do a word search at Biblegateway or wherever, though. That never gets old.

O foolish and unwise
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 32:6)

stop
(Old Testament | 2 Kings 3:19)

doing
(Old Testament | Genesis 18:17)

this
(Old Testament | Genesis 2:23)
 
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He is the way

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You need to make up your mind.

Either Christ died for everyone.
Or Christ only died for some.

Which is it?

-CryptoLutheran
He didn't die for everyone:
(New Testament | Matthew 12:31 - 37)

31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
 
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He is the way

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Christ's commandments ≠ The Commandments of Joseph Smith/The Mormon religion, so that's a non-starter.

Nice reminder to all of us that you can do a word search at Biblegateway or wherever, though. That never gets old.

O foolish and unwise
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 32:6)

stop
(Old Testament | 2 Kings 3:19)

doing
(Old Testament | Genesis 18:17)

this
(Old Testament | Genesis 2:23)
All commandments are based on the two great commandments. If you can keep these you will have the promises that are guaranteed by them:

(New Testament | Matthew 22:36 - 40)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
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He is the way

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So that "whole world" and "all" and "everyone" stuff the Bible talks about is just for funsies?

-CryptoLutheran
The whole theme of the Bible is to keep the commandments. It is the WHOLE DUTY of man:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The whole theme of the Bible is to keep the commandments. It is the WHOLE DUTY of man:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

I can quote proof texts too, except mine are actually relevant to what is being said.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BigDaddy4

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So that "whole world" and "all" and "everyone" stuff the Bible talks about is just for funsies?

-CryptoLutheran
In Mormonism, apparently, "all" doesn't mean "all" (i.e., John 1:3 doesn't really mean "through him all things were made..."). :scratch:
 
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Peter1000

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In Mormonism, apparently, "all" doesn't mean "all" (i.e., John 1:3 doesn't really mean "through him all things were made..."). :scratch:
I proved to you twice that "all" does not always actually mean "all". Sometimes it is a figure of speech.
Like when "all" of Judeah came out to John the baptist. (Matthew 3:5)

A common sense understanding would be that the Roman king and his soldiers and all that is Rome did not come out to John. In fact if actually 1/3 of "all" the people came out to see John it would have been a miracle.

Did "all" men actually hate the apostles? Matthew 10:22) No, a common sense reading of that line would not include the word "all". I say that because thousands upon thousands of people "loved" the apostles and some people practically worshiped them, espcially Peter and Paul.

So no, "all" does not always mean "all" in the scriptures. A figure of speech could include the word "all".

Enough said again on the word "all".
 
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Daniel Marsh

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He didn't die for everyone:
(New Testament | Matthew 12:31 - 37)

31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

John 3:16 English Standard Version (ESV)
For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

I think World includes all people regardless if they take the gift Eph 2:8-10.

2 Corinthians 5:15
and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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2 Nephi 9:5 5 Yea, I know that ye know that in the body he shall show himself unto those at Jerusalem, from whence we came; for it is expedient that it should be among them; for it behooveth the great Creator that e suffereth himself to become subject unto man in the flesh, and die for all men, that all men might become subject unto him.
 
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Peter1000

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John 3:16 English Standard Version (ESV)
For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

I think World includes all people regardless if they take the gift Eph 2:8-10.

2 Corinthians 5:15
and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
I think you are getting 2 stories mixed together.

First story:
Jesus died that "all" men would be raised from the dead. "All" men both good and bad will have the opportunity to be resurrected. You cannot be bad enough to not be resurrected. "All" men will be resurrected.

Second story:
"All" men will not be given 'eternal life'. The only men that will be given 'eternal life' are those that believe on Jesus. The end. If you really believe you will have 'eternal life' and Christ's sacrifice will remove your sins and you will be in the kingdom of God forever.
If you do not believe, the sacrifice of Jesus was in vain for you personally, and you will not have 'eternal life'.

There you go, all cleared up.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Unknown. But I want to meet him too.

He and his priesthood authority is one reason the gates of hell have not prevailed, even though there has been a widespread apostasy from the original Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints. There is no church on earth that approaches the organization of that church except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

There is no proof of your claimed widespread apostasy of his Church --- otherwise Jesus is a liar. "gates of hell will not prevail".

Jesus today is the only one who has the keys to the afterlife.

Revelation 1:18
and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Ephesians 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,

"On completing His thirtieth year He suffered, being in fact still a young man, and who had by no means attained to advanced age. Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement. Whom then should we rather believe? Whether such men as these, or Ptolemæus, who never saw the apostles, and who never even in his dreams attained to the slightest trace of an apostle?" LDS - If a universal apostasy really happened?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I think you are getting 2 stories mixed together.

First story:
Jesus died that "all" men would be raised from the dead. "All" men both good and bad will have the opportunity to be resurrected. You cannot be bad enough to not be resurrected. "All" men will be resurrected.

Second story:
"All" men will not be given 'eternal life'. The only men that will be given 'eternal life' are those that believe on Jesus. The end. If you really believe you will have 'eternal life' and Christ's sacrifice will remove your sins and you will be in the kingdom of God forever.
If you do not believe, the sacrifice of Jesus was in vain for you personally, and you will not have 'eternal life'.

There you go, all cleared up.

No my friend, those texts clearly speak that Jesus made an atonement for all men. The Resurrection was going to happen anyways. Eph 2:8-10 makes it clear that those who accept the gift by repenting and calling on Jesus will be saved.

Job 13:15 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
I will continue to trust God even if he kills me.
But I will defend myself to his face.

Daniel 12:1-4 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
12 “Daniel, at that time the great prince Michael will stand up. Michael is in charge of your people. There will be a time of much trouble, the worst time since nations have been on earth. But Daniel, at that time every one of your people whose name is found written in the book of life will be saved. 2 There are many who are dead and buried. Some of them will wake up and live forever, but others will wake up to shame and disgrace forever. 3 The wise people will shine as bright as the sky. Those who teach others to live right will shine like stars forever and ever.

4 “But you, Daniel, keep this message a secret. You must close the book and keep this secret until the time of the end. Many people will go here and there looking for true knowledge, and the true knowledge will increase.”

—In Extra-Canonical Apocalypses:
In the earliest part of the Ethiopic Book of Enoch (i.-xxxvi.) there is a great advance on the conceptions of Daniel, although the book is of earlier date. Ch. xxii. contains an elaborate description of Sheol, telling how it is divided into four parts, two of which receive two classes of righteous; the others, two classes of wicked. Of these, three classes are to experience a resurrection. One class of the wicked has been judged and has received its punishment. In H Maccabees the belief that all Israelites will be resurrected finds expression (comp. vi. 26, vii. 9-36, and xiv. 46). In the next Enoch apocalypse (Ethiopic Enoch, lxxxiii.-xc.), composed a few years after Daniel, it was thought that only the righteous Israelites would experience a resurrection. That was to be a bodily resurrection, and the body was to be subsequently transformed. This writer realized that the earth was not a fit place for Yhwh's permanent kingdom, and so the conception of a heavenly Jerusalem appears, of which the earthly Jerusalem city is the prototype.

Against these views some of the later psalmists uttered a protest, declaring that a resurrection was impossible (comp. Ps. lxxxviii. 10, cxv. 17). In spite of this protest, however, the idea persisted. The next Enoch apocalypse (Ethiopic Enoch, xci.-civ.) looked for a resurrection of the righteous, but as spirits only, without a body (comp. ciii. 3, 4). A later Enoch apocalypse (Ethiopic Enoch, xxxvii.-lxx.) expresses the conviction that both the righteous and the wicked will be raised (comp. li 1, 2; lxii. 15, 16), and that the spirits of the righteous will be clothed in a body of glory and light.

The author of the Slavonic Book of Enoch (Book of the Secrets of Enoch, xxii. 8-10) believed in a resurrection of spirits, without a body. He nevertheless believed in a spiritual body, for he describes the righteous as clothed in the glory of God. The authors of the Book of Jubilees and the Assumptio Mosis believed in a resurrection of the spirit only, without a body (comp. Jubilees, xxiii. 31 et al., and Assumptio Mosis, x. 9).

All these believed that the soul would sleep in Sheol till the judgment, but several Alexandrian writers about the beginning of the common era held, like Ps. xlix. and lxxiii., that the spirits of the righteous entered on a blessed immortality immediately at death. This was the view of the author of the Wisdom of Solomon (iii. 1-4; iv. 7, 10, et al.), of Philo, and of IV Maccabees. Finally, the scope of the resurrection, which in previous writers had been limited to Israel, was extended in the Apocalypse of Baruch and in II Esdras to include all mankind (comp. Baruch, xlix.-li. 4; II Esd. vii. 32-37).

Jewish Encyclopedia


Resurrection is asserted in all the Apocryphal writings of Pharisaic origin (comp. II Macc. vii. 9-36,xii. 43-44), where arguments against Sadducean Israel are prescented (Book of Jubilees, xxiii. 30; Test. Patr., Judah, 25; Zebulun, 10; Benjamin, 10; Vita Adæ et Evæ, xiii.; Sibyllines, ii. 85; Enoch, li. 1-2; Apoc. Baruch, xxx. 1-5, l.-li.: II Esd. vii. 32; Psalms of Solomon, iii. 16, xiv. 13), and in the Hellenistic writings (see Wisdom iii. 1-9, iv. 7, v. 16, vi. 20; IV Macc. ix. 8; xiii. 16; xv. 2; xvii. 5, 18; xviii. 23). Immortality of the soul takes the place of bodily resurrection. Rabbinical arguments in favor of resurrection are given in Sanh. 90b-92b, from promises made to the dead (Ex. iv. 4; Deut. xi. 9 [comp. Mark xii. 18]; Num. xviii. 28; Deut. iv. 4, xxxi. 16, xxxii. 39), and from similar expressions in which the future tense is applied to the future life (Ex. xv. 1; Deut. xxxiii. 6; Josh. viii. 30; Ps. lxxxiv. 5 [A. V. 4]; Isa. lii. 8); also in Ḥul. 142a, from promised rewards (Deut. v. 16, xxii. 17), which so frequently are not fulfilled during this life (Ber. 16b; Gen. R. xx. 26). Arguments are drawn from the grain of wheat (Sanh. 90b; comp. I. Cor. xv. 35-38), from historical parallels—the miracles of revival wrought by Elijah, Elisha, and Ezekiel (Lev. R. xxvii. 4)—and from a necessary conception of divine justice, body and soul not being in a position to be held to account for their doings in life unless, like the blind and the lame man in the parable, they are again brought together as they were before (Sifre, Deut. 106; Sanh. 91a; with reference to Ps. l. 4).

The Sadducees denied the resurrection (Josephus, "Ant." xviii. 1, § 4; idem, "B. J." ii. 8, § 14; Acts xxiii. 8; Sanh. 90b; Ab. R. N. v.). All the more emphatically did the Pharisees enunciate in the liturgy (Shemoneh 'Esreh, 2d benediction; Ber. v. 2) their belief in resurrection as one of their fundamental convictions (Sanh. x. 1; comp. Abot iv. 22; Soṭah ix. 15).

Both the Pharisees and the Essenes believed in the resurrection of the body, Josephus' philosophical construction of their belief to suit the taste of his Roman readers notwithstanding (see "B. J." ii. 8, § 11; "Ant." xviii. 1, § 5; compare these with the genuine source of Josephus, in Hippolytus' "Refutatio Hæresium," ed. Duncker Schneidewin, ix. 27, 29, where the original ἀνάστασις [= "resurrection"] casts a strange light upon Josephus' mode of handling texts). According to the Rabbis, Job and Esau denied resurrection (B. B. 16a, b). Whosoever denies resurrection will have no share in it (Sanh. 90b). The resurrection will be achieved by God, who alone holds the key to it (Ta'an. 2a; Sanh. 113a). At the same time the elect ones, among these first of all the Messiah and Elijah, but also the righteous in general, shall aid in raising the dead (Pirḳe R. El. xxxii.; Soṭah ix. 15; Shir ha-Shirim Zuṭa, vii.; Pes. 68a; comp. "Bundahis," xxx. 17).

Universal or National.
By means of the "dew of resurrection" (see Dew) the dead will be aroused from their sleep (Yer. Ber. v. 9b; Ta'an. i. 63d, with reference to Isa. xxvi. 19; Ḥag. 12b. with reference to Ps. lxviii. 10 [A. V. 9]). As to the question, Who will be raised from death? the answers given vary greatly in rabbinical literature. According to R. Simai (Sifre, Deut. 306) and R. Ḥiyya bar Abba (Gen. R. xiii. 4; comp. Lev. R. xiii. 3), resurrection awaits only the Israelites; according to R. Abbahu, only the just (Ta'an. 7a); some mention especially the martyrs (Yalḳ. ii. 431, after Tanḥuma). R. Abbahu and R. Eleazar confine resurrection to those that die in the Holy Land; others extend it to such as die outside of Palestine (Ket. 111a). According to R. Jonathan (Pirḳe R. El. xxxiv.), the resurrection will be universal, but after judgment the wicked will die a second death and forever, whereas the just will be granted life everlasting (comp. Yalḳ. ii. 428, 499). The same difference of view prevails also among the New Testament writers; at times only "the resurrection of the just" is spoken of (Luke xiv. 14, xx. 35); at other times "the resurrection of the dead" in general is mentioned (John v. 29; Acts xxiv. 15; Rev. xx. 45).
 
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dzheremi

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Wow. I never thought I would see the Ethiopic canon referenced here...interesting stuff!

Of course the fact that it contradicts what they preach will probably taken as some kind of proof of 'corruption' by the restorationists, even though it is not accepted as canonical outside of the Ethiopian broader canon (i.e., no other Church but that descended from the Axumites in Ethiopia and Eritrea has this book in their canon), which would suggest a very 'limited corruption', if you will, not the 'universal apostasy' spoken of in this thread and by Mormons as a starting point for the existence of their religion. ;)
 
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Daniel Marsh

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John 11:24
Martha answered, “I know that he will rise to live again at the time of the resurrection on the last day.”

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out to the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: for the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called into question!”

" But it was not the immortality of the soul which the Pharisees believed in, as Josephus puts it, but the resurrection of the body as expressed in the liturgy (see Resurrection), and this formed part of their Messianic hope (see Eschatology)." PHARISEES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

There was a clear belief in the Resurrection among the Jewish People. There were some that denied that there was any afterlife.

This is well known and what I learned as a child in Hebrew Temple School.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Wow. I never thought I would see the Ethiopic canon referenced here...interesting stuff!

Of course the fact that it contradicts what they preach will probably taken as some kind of proof of 'corruption' by the restorationists, even though it is not accepted as canonical outside of the Ethiopian broader canon (i.e., no other Church but that descended from the Axumites in Ethiopia and Eritrea has this book in their canon), which would suggest a very 'limited corruption', if you will, not the 'universal apostasy' spoken of in this thread and by Mormons as a starting point for the existence of their religion. ;)

At the very least they are historical documents that proves that there were Jewish People who believed in the Resurrection well before Jesus was born.

The Essene's also believed in the Resurrection.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...i22i30j33i160j33i10i299j33i10i160.lQZ5XRlairs
 
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dzheremi

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Yes. I knew that already from the quotation already provided from the beloved apostle Paul, about how he is a Pharisee and he is being persecuted for his belief in the resurrection. I just didn't know about Enoch because it's not a part of the Coptic Orthodox Church's canon, so I've never had the chance to read it.

So many different strands of thought, from different times and places and movements, all against the claims of Mormonism as presented by Peter1000...hmmm...it's enough to make you wonder how the Mormons can claim to be a restoration of anything, let alone of ancient, uncorrupted Christianity!
 
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Widow of Zarephath’s son 1 Kings 17:17–24
Shunamite’s son 2 Kings 4:20–37
Man tossed into Elisha’s tomb 2 Kings 13:21
Widow of Nain’s son Luke 7:11–17
Jairus’ daughter Mark 5:35–43
Lazarus John 11:1–44
Tabitha (also known as Dorcas) Acts 9:36–41
Eutychus Acts 20:7–12
Those resurrected at Jesus’ crucifixion Matthew 27:51-53
Moses Jude 1:9


2 Maccabees 7 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
The Martyrdom of Seven Brothers

7 It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and thongs, to partake of unlawful swine’s flesh. 2 One of them, acting as their spokesman, said, ‘What do you intend to ask and learn from us? For we are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our ancestors.’

3 The king fell into a rage, and gave orders to have pans and cauldrons heated. 4 These were heated immediately, and he commanded that the tongue of their spokesman be cut out and that they scalp him and cut off his hands and feet, while the rest of the brothers and the mother looked on. 5 When he was utterly helpless, the king ordered them to take him to the fire, still breathing, and to fry him in a pan. The smoke from the pan spread widely, but the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly, saying, 6 ‘The Lord God is watching over us and in truth has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his song that bore witness against the people to their faces, when he said, “And he will have compassion on his servants.”’

7 After the first brother had died in this way, they brought forward the second for their sport. They tore off the skin of his head with the hair, and asked him, ‘Will you eat rather than have your body punished limb by limb?’ 8 He replied in the language of his ancestors and said to them, ‘No.’ Therefore he in turn underwent tortures as the first brother had done. 9 And when he was at his last breath, he said, ‘You accursed wretch, you dismiss us from this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up to an everlasting renewal of life, because we have died for his laws.’

10 After him, the third was the victim of their sport. When it was demanded, he quickly put out his tongue and courageously stretched forth his hands, 11 and said nobly, ‘I got these from Heaven, and because of his laws I disdain them, and from him I hope to get them back again.’ 12 As a result the king himself and those with him were astonished at the young man’s spirit, for he regarded his sufferings as nothing.

13 After he too had died, they maltreated and tortured the fourth in the same way. 14 When he was near death, he said, ‘One cannot but choose to die at the hands of mortals and to cherish the hope God gives of being raised again by him. But for you there will be no resurrection to life!’

15 Next they brought forward the fifth and maltreated him. 16 But he looked at the king, and said, ‘Because you have authority among mortals, though you also are mortal, you do what you please. But do not think that God has forsaken our people. 17 Keep on, and see how his mighty power will torture you and your descendants!’

18 After him they brought forward the sixth. And when he was about to die, he said, ‘Do not deceive yourself in vain. For we are suffering these things on our own account, because of our sins against our own God. Therefore astounding things have happened. 19 But do not think that you will go unpunished for having tried to fight against God!’

20 The mother was especially admirable and worthy of honourable memory. Although she saw her seven sons perish within a single day, she bore it with good courage because of her hope in the Lord. 21 She encouraged each of them in the language of their ancestors. Filled with a noble spirit, she reinforced her woman’s reasoning with a man’s courage, and said to them, 22 ‘I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. 23 Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of humankind and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws.’

24 Antiochus felt that he was being treated with contempt, and he was suspicious of her reproachful tone. The youngest brother being still alive, Antiochus[f] not only appealed to him in words, but promised with oaths that he would make him rich and enviable if he would turn from the ways of his ancestors, and that he would take him for his Friend and entrust him with public affairs. 25 Since the young man would not listen to him at all, the king called the mother to him and urged her to advise the youth to save himself. 26 After much urging on his part, she undertook to persuade her son. 27 But, leaning close to him, she spoke in their native language as follows, deriding the cruel tyrant: ‘My son, have pity on me. I carried you for nine months in my womb, and nursed you for three years, and have reared you and brought you up to this point in your life, and have taken care of you.[g] 28 I beg you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed.[h] And in the same way the human race came into being. 29 Do not fear this butcher, but prove worthy of your brothers. Accept death, so that in God’s mercy I may get you back again along with your brothers.’

30 While she was still speaking, the young man said, ‘What are you waiting for? I will not obey the king’s command, but I obey the command of the law that was given to our ancestors through Moses. 31 But you,[j] who have contrived all sorts of evil against the Hebrews, will certainly not escape the hands of God. 32 For we are suffering because of our own sins. 33 And if our living Lord is angry for a little while, to rebuke and discipline us, he will again be reconciled with his own servants.[k] 34 But you, unholy wretch, you most defiled of all mortals, do not be elated in vain and puffed up by uncertain hopes, when you raise your hand against the children of heaven. 35 You have not yet escaped the judgement of the almighty, all-seeing God. 36 For our brothers after enduring a brief suffering have drunk[l] of ever-flowing life, under God’s covenant; but you, by the judgement of God, will receive just punishment for your arrogance. 37 I, like my brothers, give up body and life for the laws of our ancestors, appealing to God to show mercy soon to our nation and by trials and plagues to make you confess that he alone is God, 38 and through me and my brothers to bring to an end the wrath of the Almighty that has justly fallen on our whole nation.’

39 The king fell into a rage, and handled him worse than the others, being exasperated at his scorn. 40 So he died in his integrity, putting his whole trust in the Lord.

41 Last of all, the mother died, after her sons.

42 Let this be enough, then, about the eating of sacrifices and the extreme tortures.


Job 19:26 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
After I leave my body and my skin has been destroyed, I know I will still see God.

Psalm 17:15 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
I have done only what is right, so I will see your face. And seeing you, I will be fully satisfied.
 
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