LDS If a universal apostasy really happened?

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No one questions the presence of devout faith.

The issue is divine authority.

If devout faith existed then there's no excuse for their not being men appointed as Apostles. Christ could make fishermen Apostles and leaders of the Church and all they had was their faith in him, ergo it follows if what Mormons say is true that any faithful man could have been appointed as an Apostle (God providing what he naturally lacked).

 

[Ironhold]

If devout faith existed then there's no excuse for their not being men appointed as Apostles. Christ could make fishermen Apostles and leaders of the Church and all they had was their faith in him, ergo it follows if what Mormons say is true that any faithful man could have been appointed as an Apostle (God providing what he naturally lacked).

Except... who would have been doing the appointments?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Except... who would have been doing the appointments?

John is the most obvious person (given his longevity) though God was perfectly able to select someone and appoint them directly like you believe he appointed Joseph Smith. What was the alternative? Only to allow for the existence of the world's greatest false religion, Christianity, to flourish and undermine the true faith.

 

[Vicomte13]

Jesus promise in that verse I quoted relates only to the OT or Jewish Bible. It does not relate to the NT.

It only relates to the Torah, not the whole Jewish Bible. The Torah is The Law, The Law is the Torah. The rest of the Jewish Scriptures are not "The Law", only the Torah is "The Law"

 

[ViaCrucis]

Except... who would have been doing the appointments?

In all the writings left to us by the Apostles themselves, and by those who also personally knew, studied under, and were ordained by the Apostles we find that the Apostles established episkopoi, presbyteroi, and diakonoi. Three "orders" for the safeguarding of the churches, in broad terms, the Apostles consecrated and left us pastors to stand in the stead of the Apostles.

At no point is there any indication that the Apostles were to establish new apostles. All of those who are called Apostles were Apostles from very nearly the beginning, if not the beginning itself. The only instance of replacing anyone occurs prior to the outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost, where St. Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot. This is the only instance of such a thing happening. Instead we find there were a number of Apostles outside of the Twelve. The New Testament names Apollos, Silas, Barnabas, Timothy, Junia, Andronicus, and Paul himself as Apostles outside of the Twelve themselves.

When St. James the Greater (the son of Zebedee) was killed, he received no replacement. At no point was James' spot filled by another. Paul doesn't replace anyone, he was called and chosen "out of due time" for which reason he regarded himself "least of the apostles"; neither are Apollos, Silas, Barnabas (et al) ever filling any vacancies.

As the first generation of Christians began to die off, and the second generation would take their place, there is no attempt made to replace the apostles with new apostles. Instead the Apostles leave the churches in the hands of men who personally knew and were taught by the Apostles--men like Ignatius, Clement, Papias, Polycarp, etc who had sat at the feet of the Apostles and directly consecrated by them--not as Apostles, but as pastors.

So we find in the Letter of St. Clement (c. 95 AD)

"The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'" 1 Clement 42:1-5

and

"Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour." - 1 Clement 44:1-5

You tell me, should I believe a man who personally knew the apostles themselves, studied under them, and was himself appointed by them; or should I believe Joseph Smith?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Daniel Marsh]

This sort of begs the question why God would commit his Church to Human hands he knew would fail when he should have taken the initiative and made John (while he was alive) replace the Apostles who died when he had the chance. There was no shortage of devout followers willing to die for the sake of Christ at any point in the Church's history, thus there is no excuse for there not being appointed Apostolic successors. This is unless Mormon theology is wrong and the Apostles never intended to have their unique mission replaced. They only did it once in the case of Judas who we can effectively call an Apostate.

Third Nephi
The Book of Nephi
the Son of Nephi, Who Was the Son of Helaman
Chapter 28
Nine of the twelve disciples desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom when they die—The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again—They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. About A.D. 34–35.

1 And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye desire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?

2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.

3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find rest.

4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;

11 And the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me.

12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he touched every one of them with his finger save it were the three who were to tarry, and then he departed.

13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.

14 And it was forbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them power that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;

15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.

16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.

17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;

18 But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given—they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.

19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the prisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.

20 And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his power they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.

21 And thrice they were cast into a furnace and received no harm.

22 And twice were they cast into a den of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.

23 And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the gospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of that generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.

24 And now I, Mormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.

25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

30 And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;

32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.

33 And if ye had all the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.

34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

35 And it would be better for them if they had not been born. For do ye suppose that ye can get rid of the justice of an offended God, who hath been trampled under feet of men, that thereby salvation might come?

36 And now behold, as I spake concerning those whom the Lord hath chosen, yea, even three who were caught up into the heavens, that I knew not whether they were cleansed from mortality to immortality—

37 But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death;

38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens


Some LDS Presidents say,

"Also, John the revelator, was permitted to live upon the Earth until the Savior should come, and the Book of Mormon gives an account of three Nephites, who lived on this American Continent, who asked for the same privilege and it was granted to them." (President John Taylor; JoD; 18:308)

"The first quorum of the apostles were all put to death, except John, and we are informed that he still remains on the Earth, though his body has doubtless undergone some change. Three of the Nephites, chosen here by the Lord Jesus as his apostles, had the same promise-that they should not taste death until Christ came, and they still remain on the earth in the flesh." (President Wilford Woodruff, The discourses of Wilford Woodruff; 95)

"Moreover, the Lord, of necessity, has kept authorized servants on the earth bearing the priesthood from the days of Adam to the present time; in fact, there has never been a moment from the beginning that there were not men on the earth holding the Holy Priesthood. (Moses 5:59.) Even in the days of apostasy, and apostasy has occurred several times, the Lord never surrendered this earth and permitted Satan to have complete control. Even when the great apostasy occurred following the death of the Savior’s apostles, our Father in heaven held control and had duly authorized servants on the earth to direct his work and to check, to some extent at least, the ravages and corruption of the evil powers. These servants were not permitted to organize the Church nor to officiate in the ordinances of the gospel, but they did check the advances of evil as far as the Lord deemed it necessary." (President Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions 2:45)

 

[A New Dawn]

Why don't LDS do complete translations of the Bible without alleged revelations? Where exactly in Greek texts is the following?

1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.
4 In him was the gospel, and the gospel was the life, and the life was the light of men;
5 And the light shineth in the world, and the world perceiveth it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came into the world for a witness, to bear witness of the light, to bear record of the gospel through the Son, unto all, that through him men might believe.
8 He was not that light, but came to bear witness of that light,
9 Which was the true light, which lighteth every man who cometh into the world;
10 Even the Son of God. He who was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Their reasoning is that the true text and meaning was lost when the manuscripts were copied over and over by scribes who changed the words to suit their own agendas. So going back to the manuscripts is useless because you'd just get the same wrong translations. There seems to be no concept that God will protect His word or fulfill His promises.

 

[A New Dawn]

Okay. I see what you mean now. Thank you for explaining.

I agree with your overall point, but I feel like it's also important to point out that "creating another form of Christianity" is exactly what JS and company did after leaving the Lord themselves, thinking that the supposed visions JS had claimed to receive superseded the words of Christ and all of His saints. So while it might not make sense, it did in fact happen. That's the dichotomy of Mormonism, wherein either it is 100% true and the restoration of some lost ancient form of Christianity or a complete fabrication and lie.

And that's not just me saying that; I learned that from their leader Jeffrey R. Holland and their other leaders, who have stated as much!

This, of what you wrote, is why any of the Mormon churches are so hard to leave. Because you know for a fact (it's been beaten into you your entire life) that the rest of Christianity is false, and so if Mormonism is also false, then you have nothing left to put faith in. This, the overarching belief that the restoration story is all you have, was all you were, was the hardest thing to get over when I finally learned that if I couldn't trust God to keep the promises He gave in the Bible then I couldn't trust Him to keep the promises He made in the latter day. And it was also when I learned that both sets of promises couldn't be true. And from there it wasn't far to understand that the promises He made in the Bible were the only true promises, and that Christianity hadn't died.

 

[Rescued One]

This, of what you wrote, is why any of the Mormon churches are so hard to leave. Because you know for a fact (it's been beaten into you your entire life) that the rest of Christianity is false, and so if Mormonism is also false, then you have nothing left to put faith in. This, the overarching belief that the restoration story is all you have, was all you were, was the hardest thing to get over when I finally learned that if I couldn't trust God to keep the promises He gave in the Bible then I couldn't trust Him to keep the promises He made in the latter day. And it was also when I learned that both sets of promises couldn't be true. And from there it wasn't far to understand that the promises He made in the Bible were the only true promises, and that Christianity hadn't died.

Thank you for your input; it's so true! Eric N. Davis wrote a book called House of Faith House of Cards. He went on a mission, married in the temple and is now an atheist.

 

[dzheremi]

This, of what you wrote, is why any of the Mormon churches are so hard to leave. Because you know for a fact (it's been beaten into you your entire life) that the rest of Christianity is false, and so if Mormonism is also false, then you have nothing left to put faith in.

Yes, this is the effect that all forms of restorationism have -- i.e., why most Mormons, Muslims, Iglesia Ni Cristo people, etc. generally do not end up joining other religions after leaving these (unless they were converts to them to begin with). They mostly become atheists or agnostics. I've had Mormons on this very website try to spin this fact as though it is somehow a point in favor of Mormonism (e.g., "if Christianity is so true, then why don't many Mormons turn to mainstream Christianity when they leave Mormonism?"), not realizing that what it really shows is how effective their religion's brainwashing/thought-moulding tactics are, not how true it is/how false everything else is. It's hard to make brainwashing out to be a truly good thing, particularly as Mormons will fight you tooth and nail if you dare to describe God's restored church as a cult.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Their reasoning is that the true text and meaning was lost when the manuscripts were copied over and over by scribes who changed the words to suit their own agendas. So going back to the manuscripts is useless because you'd just get the same wrong translations. There seems to be no concept that God will protect His word or fulfill His promises.

We know that textual criticism blows that theory out of the water. In fact, in the DDS the book of Isaiah texts were around 1,000 years earlier than any existing texts for it. The only differences were spelling. The fact that the Bible was not changed in the copying must mean that there was no universal falling away as of yet.

Also, it is often overlooked that concurrent with the falling away there would be this guy.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 New International Version (NIV)
The Man of Lawlessness
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Rev 13
The Beast out of the Earth

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth.e It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.f g of the first beast on its behalf,h and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast,i whose fatal wound had been healed.j keven causing fire to come down from heavenl to the earth in full view of the people. m it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceivedn the inhabitants of the earth.o It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.p q the image to be killed.r s rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,t u which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.v

w Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.e x That number is 616.


Revelation 19:20
Embed

20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophetd who had performed the signse on its behalf.f With these signs he had deludedg those who had received the mark of the beasth and worshiped its image.i The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lakej of burning sulfur.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here

 

[A New Dawn]

We know that textual criticism blows that theory out of the water. In fact, in the DDS the book of Isaiah texts were around 1,000 years earlier than any existing texts for it. The only differences were spelling. The fact that the Bible was not changed in the copying must mean that there was no universal falling away as of yet.

We do know about that, but to be fair, there are evidences that things like this did happen, for example -- the Johanine Comma, but it was caught and returned to the state of the original manuscripts in the newer translations. Not defending Joseph Smith, but he was correct that this happened in a few instances, but his response to rewrite the Bible, and to create a new book of scripture with no evidence was the wrong way to go. Relying on God to fulfill His promises is the right way to go.

 

[A New Dawn]

Yes, this is the effect that all forms of restorationism have -- i.e., why most Mormons, Muslims, Iglesia Ni Cristo people, etc. generally do not end up joining other religions after leaving these (unless they were converts to them to begin with). They mostly become atheists or agnostics. I've had Mormons on this very website try to spin this fact as though it is somehow a point in favor of Mormonism (e.g., "if Christianity is so true, then why don't many Mormons turn to mainstream Christianity when they leave Mormonism?"), not realizing that what it really shows is how effective their religion's brainwashing/thought-moulding tactics are, not how true it is/how false everything else is. It's hard to make brainwashing out to be a truly good thing, particularly as Mormons will fight you tooth and nail if you dare to describe God's restored church as a cult.

I agree with most of your statement except this part: "(unless they were converts to them to begin with)", and I'd change it to say 'unless they were truly saved by God' because there are many that come out of the LDS (and other restoration churches) that do not become atheist or agnostic. We've had numerous here over the years who have done so. If they are truly saved, they would know that "the church" exists beyond denomination lines.

 

[Ironhold]

Yes, this is the effect that all forms of restorationism have -- i.e., why most Mormons, Muslims, Iglesia Ni Cristo people, etc. generally do not end up joining other religions after leaving these (unless they were converts to them to begin with). They mostly become atheists or agnostics. I've had Mormons on this very website try to spin this fact as though it is somehow a point in favor of Mormonism (e.g., "if Christianity is so true, then why don't many Mormons turn to mainstream Christianity when they leave Mormonism?"), not realizing that what it really shows is how effective their religion's brainwashing/thought-moulding tactics are, not how true it is/how false everything else is. It's hard to make brainwashing out to be a truly good thing, particularly as Mormons will fight you tooth and nail if you dare to describe God's restored church as a cult.

Don't underestimate how vile mainline Christians can be in their treatment of people they regard as "others".

I actually remember an anti-Christian site which used statements made by anti-Mormon author Ed Decker against Christianity as a whole. The statements were condemning Joseph Smith for what Decker considered to be false prophecies, yet the people doing the site found comparable "unfulfilled" prophecies in the Gospels. Thus, they decided it was hypocritical for Ed to go after Joseph Smith but not Jesus.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

We do know about that, but to be fair, there are evidences that things like this did happen, for example -- the Johanine Comma, but it was caught and returned to the state of the original manuscripts in the newer translations. Not defending Joseph Smith, but he was correct that this happened in a few instances, but his response to rewrite the Bible, and to create a new book of scripture with no evidence was the wrong way to go. Relying on God to fulfill His promises is the right way to go.

Yes, there is less than 1 percent of the of the Bible that has questionable texts which have been caught. Other examples are around John 7:53 to 8:11: a woman accused of adultery., endings of Mark, the I John 5:17-8 you pointed out. The Johanine Comma is the only major one related to doctrine as an attempt to verify the Trinity.

This article claims that First John verse was removed by the Arians in areas that they controlled. http://www.verhoevenmarc.be/PDF/Comma-Johanneum-Defence.pdf There are some King James Only Scholars that makes a case for it being included in the NT as I guess you are well aware.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Don't underestimate how vile mainline Christians can be in their treatment of people they regard as "others".

I actually remember an anti-Christian site which used statements made by anti-Mormon author Ed Decker against Christianity as a whole. The statements were condemning Joseph Smith for what Decker considered to be false prophecies, yet the people doing the site found comparable "unfulfilled" prophecies in the Gospels. Thus, they decided it was hypocritical for Ed to go after Joseph Smith but not Jesus.

That sound like it would make a good new thread for people to discuss. Go for it.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Red to here, got to get back to work, a sick senior I am taking care of.

 

[dzheremi]

Don't underestimate how vile mainline Christians can be in their treatment of people they regard as "others".

That's also true, but that's not what we're talking about in this conversation.

I actually remember an anti-Christian site which used statements made by anti-Mormon author Ed Decker against Christianity as a whole. The statements were condemning Joseph Smith for what Decker considered to be false prophecies, yet the people doing the site found comparable "unfulfilled" prophecies in the Gospels. Thus, they decided it was hypocritical for Ed to go after Joseph Smith but not Jesus.

Why is this surprising? Though "anti-Christian" could include more than atheists, to the atheist, all exclusive religions are equally unbelievable, and so of course they would want to point out when someone is criticizing a particular religion for not following or fulfilling something that their own religion likewise does not follow or fulfill. I do that here regarding your own religion and its translation problems vis-a-vis 'Reformed Egyptian' and the BOM, or the obvious problems with the Book of Abraham, because it makes the Mormon claim that you guys believe in the the Bible "insofar as it is translated correctly" really hypocritical. Even more can be said regarding the LDS reliance on a scriptural canon inherited from a Church that the same LDS religion views as having been in irrecoverable apostasy during the time of the formation of said canon. It'd be a disservice to any reader not to point these things out, lest they actually fall for Mormon baloney.

So in a weird way I can sympathize with these "anti-Christian" people, at least in their impulse if not in their conclusions.

 

[Peter1000]

Red to here, got to get back to work, a sick senior I am taking care of.

That is a good reason to get back to work, hope all goes well with your senior. Bless you for your good works.