LDS If a universal apostasy really happened?

[Daniel Marsh]

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[Daniel Marsh]

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[He is the way]

In all the writings left to us by the Apostles themselves, and by those who also personally knew, studied under, and were ordained by the Apostles we find that the Apostles established episkopoi, presbyteroi, and diakonoi. Three "orders" for the safeguarding of the churches, in broad terms, the Apostles consecrated and left us pastors to stand in the stead of the Apostles.

At no point is there any indication that the Apostles were to establish new apostles. All of those who are called Apostles were Apostles from very nearly the beginning, if not the beginning itself. The only instance of replacing anyone occurs prior to the outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost, where St. Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot. This is the only instance of such a thing happening. Instead we find there were a number of Apostles outside of the Twelve. The New Testament names Apollos, Silas, Barnabas, Timothy, Junia, Andronicus, and Paul himself as Apostles outside of the Twelve themselves.

When St. James the Greater (the son of Zebedee) was killed, he received no replacement. At no point was James' spot filled by another. Paul doesn't replace anyone, he was called and chosen "out of due time" for which reason he regarded himself "least of the apostles"; neither are Apollos, Silas, Barnabas (et al) ever filling any vacancies.

As the first generation of Christians began to die off, and the second generation would take their place, there is no attempt made to replace the apostles with new apostles. Instead the Apostles leave the churches in the hands of men who personally knew and were taught by the Apostles--men like Ignatius, Clement, Papias, Polycarp, etc who had sat at the feet of the Apostles and directly consecrated by them--not as Apostles, but as pastors.

So we find in the Letter of St. Clement (c. 95 AD)

"The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'" 1 Clement 42:1-5

and

"Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour." - 1 Clement 44:1-5

You tell me, should I believe a man who personally knew the apostles themselves, studied under them, and was himself appointed by them; or should I believe Joseph Smith?

-CryptoLutheran

"The Prophet Joseph Smith taught “the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.”2 Those keys refer to the right to preside over priesthood authority in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Keys carry the right to preside over a local organization of the Church, such as a stake, a ward or branch, a mission or district, a priesthood quorum, or a temple. Keys are conferred by the laying on of hands by one who holds proper authority and whose authority is known to the Church.3

All the keys of the kingdom of God on earth are held by members of the First Presidency and members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The President of the Church—the senior Apostle—presides over the entire Church and is the only person on earth who exercises all the keys in their fulness.4 He delegates authority by conferring or authorizing the conferral of keys upon other bearers of the priesthood in their specific offices and callings.5

Priesthood is the authority of God delegated to man to minister for the salvation of men. “The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the Priesthood.”6 We distinguish between holding the priesthood and holding keys of the priesthood. When an individual is given keys, he does not receive additional priesthood. What he has is the right to direct the work of the priesthood."
From: Keys of the Priesthood

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Revelation 1:18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
18 I am the one who lives. I was dead, but look, I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Matthew 28:18 So he came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me.

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say, “The victory and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah have now come. These things have come, because the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown out. He is the one who accused them day and night before our God.

Hebrews 1 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things. 3 The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side[a] of God, the Great One in heaven. 4 The Son became much greater than the angels, and God gave him a name that is much greater than any of their names.

Hebrews 7
15 And these things become even clearer when we see that another priest has come who is like Melchizedek. 16 He was made a priest, but not because he met the requirement of being born into the right family. He became a priest by the power of a life that will never end. 17 This is what the Scriptures say about him: “You are a priest forever—the kind of priest Melchizedek was.”

18 The old rule is now ended because it was weak and worthless. 19 The Law of Moses could not make anything perfect. But now a better hope has been given to us. And with that hope we can come near to God.

20 Also, it is important that God made a promise with an oath when he made Jesus high priest. When those other men became priests, there was no oath.21 But Christ became a priest with God’s oath. God said to him,

“The Lord has made a promise with an oath
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”A)" data-cr="#cen-ERV-29716A" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">

22 So this means that Jesus is the guarantee of a better agreement from God to his people.

23 Also, when one of those other priests died, he could not continue being a priest. So there were many of those priests. 24 But Jesus lives forever. He will never stop serving as a priest. 25 So Christ can save those who come to God through him. Christ can do this forever, because he always lives and is ready to help people when they come before God.

26 So Jesus is the kind of high priest we need. He is holy. He has no sin in him. He is pure and not influenced by sinners. And he is raised above the heavens. 27 He is not like those other priests. They had to offer sacrifices every day, first for their own sins, and then for the sins of the people. But Jesus doesn’t need to do that. He offered only one sacrifice for all time. He offered himself. 28 The law chooses high priests who are men and have the same weaknesses that all people have. But after the law, God spoke the oath that made his Son high priest. And that Son, made perfect through suffering, will serve forever.

Ephesians 1:22
God put everything under Christ’s power and made him head over everything for the church.

Colossians 1:18 He is the head of the body, which is the church. He is the beginning of everything else. And he is the first among all who will be raised from death. So in everything he is most important.

The final prophet that gives revelation to the Church is Jesus alone, no one else. He alone is the head of the Church. He alone is our King.
He alone is our High Priest. All believers hold a Priesthood, so it was never lost and did not have to be restored.

1 Peter 2:9 English Standard Version (ESV)
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

3 Nephi 28

Nine of the twelve disciples desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom when they die—The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again—They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. About A.D. 34–35.

1 And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye adesire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?

2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.

3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are aseventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my bkingdom; and with me ye shall find crest.

4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from amortality to bimmortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the asins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me,for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

10 And for this cause ye shall have afulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are bone;

11 And the aHoly Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me.

12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he touched every one of them with his finger save it were the athree who were to tarry, and then he departed.

13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were acaught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.

14 And it was aforbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them bpower that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;

15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a atransfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.

16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.

17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;

18 But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given—they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.

19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the aprisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.

20 And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his apower they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.

21 And thrice they were cast into a afurnace and received no harm.

22 And twice were they cast into a aden of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.

23 And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the agospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of bthat generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.

24 And now I, aMormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.

25 Behold, I was about to write the anames of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

26 But behold, aI have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.

27 And behold they will be aamong the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the ascattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

30 And they are as the aangels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the agreat and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;

32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a agreat and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.

33 And if ye had aall the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.

34 And wo be unto him that will anot hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and bsent among them; for whoso creceiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

35 And it would be better for them if they had not been born. For do ye suppose that ye can get rid of the justice of an aoffended God, who hath been btrampled under feet of men, that thereby salvation might come?

36 And now behold, as I spake concerning those whom the Lord hath chosen, yea, even three who were caught up into the heavens, that I knew not whether they were acleansed from bmortality to immortality—

37 But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death;

38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a achange wrought upon their bodies, that they might not bsuffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not atempt them; and they were bsanctified in the flesh, that they were choly, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

Since the Apostle John never died according to the BOM and those three do not die. Then, it is impossible for their offices to cease to exist too.
Thus those can not be restored too.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

IF the Apostle John and those three are not with us today doing their missions, then the BOM is false, thus letting us know that JS was a false whatever is claimed for him.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

John 21:23 (GW) So a rumor that that disciple wouldn't die spread among Jesus' followers. But Jesus didn't say that he wouldn't die. What Jesus said was, "If I want him to live until I come again, how does that concern you?"

 

[Peter1000]

The Problem with your analogy is that those subsequent leaders of the Church did not claim to be Apostles. They claimed apostolic authority to their office but not to the office of Apostle. So they did not self-appoint themselves, but were rather appointed as leaders (bishops) of their particular jurisdiction by Apostles or those appointed by Apostles themselves.

This should put to question the idea that the Apostles were not capable of appointing Apostolic replacements, especially as they began to die off. The persecution against them wasn’t simultaneous nor was it coordinated, but sporadic and taking place over the course of many years. Plenty of opportunity for another Apostle (especially John), once he learned of the fate of his fallen comrade, to appoint from the already chosen pool of local Bishops replacements. Yet there were none.

Now this leads me to conclude the Apostles never intended nor had a mandate that their particular office go beyond them and their time. If it were so important, they would have appointed Apostles. John in particular since he possibly lived to the beginning of the second century. Mormons can’t really address this unless they implicate the entirety of the apostolic mission and the men they chose to be leaders. Were none of them Bishops worthy of being Apostles? None whatsoever? What does that say of the Church at the time? Was it all a lie, stories about the dedication of followers in acts and subsequent generations? Mere propaganda? I don’t think so.

I contend that the Mormon explanation of the early Church material is insufficient and cannot account for all the details. It raises more difficulties and problems trying to explain something that never happened to begin with (loss of authority). Authority was never lost in the Church, faithfulness was never lost.

The foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints was apostles and prophets and Jesus Christ himself.
Ephesians 2:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

With Jesus in heaven it was up to the apostles and prophets to do the teaching.

This is the reason Jesus gave them:
Ephesians 4:11-14 King James Version (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Without the apostles and prophets we can not perfect the saints (teach them what they need to know to be saved), do the work of the ministry (only those having the binding and loosing keys can do the true work of the ministry), they cannot edify the body of Christ, (they do not know what that means).

This is to be the case till we all come into a unity of the faith, a full knowledge of the Son of God, so that we can be perfect men and women, and come unto the stature of Christ in his fulness.

It is apostles and prophets that keep us from being tossed to and from with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men and women and their cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

We have not had apostles and prophets for 1900 years. That is because the gentiles murdered them and even in the Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints they started to despise the apostles and would not let them come into their bishops territory.

Apostasy was starting to move along about the time that John was exiled to Patmos. He was rejected by Christian bishops because he came to their territories and told them to get back in line and they did not like it one bit.

God, in Ephesians above, knew his apostles and prophets needed to be in control in order for the church to stay true and teach the truth and so it was his intentions for the apostles to be here forever. But he also knew they would not, because of the wickedness of the world they lived in.

It took 1900 years for the Americas to be discovered and to become the land of the free in order to bring back the true church again, out of the wilderness. Only in America could this happen, and it had a hard time with persecution in the beginning. Eventually it will make its way around the entire world as prophesied in the first century in the great commission of the Lord as he ascended into heaven.

 

[Peter1000]

John 21:23 (GW) So a rumor that that disciple wouldn't die spread among Jesus' followers. But Jesus didn't say that he wouldn't die. What Jesus said was, "If I want him to live until I come again, how does that concern you?"

That John lives even today was confirmed by JS around 1830, when he saw him and talked with him.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints was apostles and prophets and Jesus Christ himself.
Ephesians 2:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

With Jesus in heaven it was up to the apostles and prophets to do the teaching.

This is the reason Jesus gave them:
Ephesians 4:11-14 King James Version (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Without the apostles and prophets we can not perfect the saints (teach them what they need to know to be saved), do the work of the ministry (only those having the binding and loosing keys can do the true work of the ministry), they cannot edify the body of Christ, (they do not know what that means).

This is to be the case till we all come into a unity of the faith, a full knowledge of the Son of God, so that we can be perfect men and women, and come unto the stature of Christ in his fulness.

It is apostles and prophets that keep us from being tossed to and from with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men and women and their cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

We have not had apostles and prophets for 1900 years. That is because the gentiles murdered them and even in the Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints they started to despise the apostles and would not let them come into their bishops territory.

Apostasy was starting to move along about the time that John was exiled to Patmos. He was rejected by Christian bishops because he came to their territories and told them to get back in line and they did not like it one bit.

God, in Ephesians above, knew his apostles and prophets needed to be in control in order for the church to stay true and teach the truth and so it was his intentions for the apostles to be here forever. But he also knew they would not, because of the wickedness of the world they lived in.

It took 1900 years for the Americas to be discovered and to become the land of the free in order to bring back the true church again, out of the wilderness. Only in America could this happen, and it had a hard time with persecution in the beginning. Eventually it will make its way around the entire world as prophesied in the first century in the great commission of the Lord as he ascended into heaven.

I had a larger response typed out but instead I will ask you a shorter question.

Why was Polycarp unworthy of being an Apostle.

 

[ViaCrucis]

"The Prophet Joseph Smith taught “the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.”2 Those keys refer to the right to preside over priesthood authority in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Keys carry the right to preside over a local organization of the Church, such as a stake, a ward or branch, a mission or district, a priesthood quorum, or a temple. Keys are conferred by the laying on of hands by one who holds proper authority and whose authority is known to the Church.3

All the keys of the kingdom of God on earth are held by members of the First Presidency and members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The President of the Church—the senior Apostle—presides over the entire Church and is the only person on earth who exercises all the keys in their fulness.4 He delegates authority by conferring or authorizing the conferral of keys upon other bearers of the priesthood in their specific offices and callings.5

Priesthood is the authority of God delegated to man to minister for the salvation of men. “The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the Priesthood.”6 We distinguish between holding the priesthood and holding keys of the priesthood. When an individual is given keys, he does not receive additional priesthood. What he has is the right to direct the work of the priesthood."
From: Keys of the Priesthood

Did Mr. Nelson personally know the Apostles St. Paul and St. Peter?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Daniel Marsh]

That John lives even today was confirmed by JS around 1830, when he saw him and talked with him.

In that case there was no need for a restoration of any kind.

Where is John today? I want to meet him.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here

 

[Peter1000]

In that case there was no need for a restoration of any kind.

Where is John today? I want to meet him.

Unknown. But I want to meet him too.

He and his priesthood authority is one reason the gates of hell have not prevailed, even though there has been a widespread apostasy from the original Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints. There is no church on earth that approaches the organization of that church except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[He is the way]

Did Mr. Nelson personally know the Apostles St. Paul and St. Peter?

-CryptoLutheran

Did Jesus personally know Abraham? I believe He did. I don't know if president Nelson knew the apostles Paul and Peter. I do believe that Joseph Smith was ordained by Peter, James, and John:

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:72)

72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.

I can trace my own priesthood lineage back to Jesus Christ.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't know if president Nelson knew the apostles Paul and Peter.

I can answer that for you, he didn't. However St. Clement did. St. Ignatius of Antioch did.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[He is the way]

I can answer that for you, he didn't. However St. Clement did. St. Ignatius of Antioch did.

-CryptoLutheran

Okay, that is good that they did.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Okay, that is good that they did.

So who shall I believe? Those whom the Apostles hand-picked to lead the churches they left behind, and who heard the Apostles speak with their own ears, and who learned directly from the Apostles directly, and who were given charge by the Apostles to safeguard the faith and keep watch over Christ's flock; or should I believe what Mr. Nelson says?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[He is the way]

So who shall I believe? Those whom the Apostles hand-picked to lead the churches they left behind, and who heard the Apostles speak with their own ears, and who learned directly from the Apostles directly, and who were given charge by the Apostles to safeguard the faith and keep watch over Christ's flock; or should I believe what Mr. Nelson says?

-CryptoLutheran

Why not believe both? Has President Nelson said anything contrary to keeping the commandments of LOVE?

 

[dzheremi]

Everytime I see the word 'love' on this board in caps now in place of an actual reply...