LDS If a universal apostasy really happened?

[Ironhold]

based on news reports, I died several times.

I actually had a physical therapist look at my X-rays, look at me, and tell me that she couldn't understand how I can still walk given how messed up my spine and hips are.

...And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I can play the whole "believe it or not" game all day long and trump just about anyone here.

Oh, and I work for a local newspaper, so your refusal to accept mainstream news sources is getting to be rather insulting.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I started with the Susan Powell incident as an example of what happens when critics toss out bloody shirts instead of actual, substantive arguments.

1. Josh Powell hadn't been an active member for several years when Susan disappeared.

2. The same Steve Powell that was pushing Josh to leave the church was the same Steve Powell that was perving on Susan.

3. Do you have any idea what it is to request a police report?

Whether you like it or not, the simple reality is that Susan's fate could have been anti-Mormon violence or brutal violence done on her by a sexual deviant that hid behind Christ's name.

And, still you major in minors while ignoring the Major problems of your prophets.

new thread,
LDS - Who is more guilty one sin or many sins?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I actually had a physical therapist look at my X-rays, look at me, and tell me that she couldn't understand how I can still walk given how messed up my spine and hips are.

...And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I can play the whole "believe it or not" game all day long and trump just about anyone here.

Oh, and I work for a local newspaper, so your refusal to accept mainstream news sources is getting to be rather insulting.

Nice to hear, but that is not proof of truth. Cultic groups like Christian Science use healing as their main proof of their religion is true. There is also other groups that have healing which we both likely agree is false.

"
BURNED HAND QUICKLY HEALED
By Audys Dodge Losche - August 12, 2019

One evening this past winter when I was in the kitchen fixing dinner, I set a cookie sheet that had been in a 400-degree oven in a roasting pan. As I picked up the pan with my left hand, I didn’t realize that a corner of the cookie sheet was protruding, and I immediately felt it touch the skin between my thumb and forefinger.

HEALING AND HARMONY DURING PREGNANCIES AND BIRTHS
By Eliza Stewart - August 12, 2019

When my husband and I were expecting our first child, we decided to plan for a home birth and met regularly with a midwife. During the pregnancy, I also talked often with a Christian Science practitioner.

NO MORE CHEST PAINS
By Mobolaji Yemitan - August 12, 2019

A few years ago I suddenly began to feel pain in my chest. At first I thought the pain was just temporary, but then it started happening more regularly.

A CHILD’S PRAYERS HEAL HEARING PROBLEM
By Inge Bock Phillips - August 12, 2019

When I was in sixth grade, my school gave me an intelligence test. Afterward, they told me I had the intelligence of a fourth-grader.

DIZZINESS DISAPPEARS
By Madeline Demaree - August 5, 2019

By midafternoon on a Friday at the end of a long week at work, I was feeling dizzy and unwell. Despite this, I went ahead and got on a previously scheduled conference call with Christian Scientists from around the world.

SEVERED FINGERTIP HEALED
By Michelle Boccanfuso Nanouche - August 5, 2019

While handling a very sharp knife, my husband cut himself, severing his fingertip. I quickly stepped in and firmly asked him to look away from his hand as I placed the tip back on and held it in place.

‘WALKING, AND LEAPING, AND PRAISING GOD’
By Diane Redding - August 5, 2019

I have always loved and marveled at the story in the Bible’s book of Acts where Peter healed the man asking alms by the Temple (see 3:1–8 ), and today I am more than ever like that man who was healed. Last December, my husband and I decided to take a motorcycle ride to a nearby town for lunch.

CHILD’S PRAYER HEALS HEADACHE
By Nina Bolch - July 22, 2019

I was about twelve years old, and we were visiting friends of my mother’s and riding in the car. As I sat in the back seat, I felt a headache coming on.

URINARY TRACT INFECTION HEALED
By Kim Iverson Welaye - July 22, 2019

A vacation with my spouse and two children was approaching, and as I was packing, I knew there was one thing I could not bring with me. A urinary tract infection had been troubling me, and it needed to be remedied.

SINGER HEALED OF LOST VOICE
By Rowanne Karapogosian - July 22, 2019

I have been a student of Christian Science my whole life, and I have had countless healings through my understanding of Christian Science and through the prayers of Christian Science practitioners. I received one early proof of God’s love for His children when I was in tenth grade.
" News of Healing - Christian Science Sentinel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I actually had a physical therapist look at my X-rays, look at me, and tell me that she couldn't understand how I can still walk given how messed up my spine and hips are.

...And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I can play the whole "believe it or not" game all day long and trump just about anyone here.

Oh, and I work for a local newspaper, so your refusal to accept mainstream news sources is getting to be rather insulting.

The first report of my death was when my brother Dennis died. I was home on leave. The papers was to publish the local boy graduates from Basic Training. This was in the 70's. The reporter covering my Brothers story, wrote down D. Marsh the story on me was Daniel Marsh. Both stories went across the Editors' desk at the same time. He combined both stories. Thus my first newspaper story of my death.

 

[Ironhold]

And, still you major in minors while ignoring the Major problems of your prophets.

new thread,
LDS - Who is more guilty one sin or many sins?

The issue is that there's far more to the bloody shirt you were waving around than you realized.

Are you going to admit that or not?

 

[Ironhold]

Nice to hear, but that is not proof of truth.

...And you're dodging again.

I cited mainstream news outlets with solid reputations.

Disprove them if you don't like them. It's on you now.

 

[Ironhold]

The first report of my death was when my brother Dennis died. I was home on leave. The papers was to publish the local boy graduates from Basic Training. This was in the 70's. The reporter covering my Brothers story, wrote down D. Marsh the story on me was Daniel Marsh. Both stories went across the Editors' desk at the same time. He combined both stories. Thus my first newspaper story of my death.

And your proof that the news reports I cited are wrong are...?

Yes, mistakes happen. But you're presuming things.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The issue is that there's far more to the bloody shirt you were waving around than you realized.

Are you going to admit that or not?

The issue is what is truth. I do not accept news paper or tv news they both are known for being inaccurate. Even if the guy was into inappropriate content..... as I said before. If he was, then his lifestyle is wrong. But, that does not negate the truth.

You have completely as far as I know went down a red haring path to avoid the ugly truth that your leaders and prophets were racists and therefore not Christians. I would hold the same position concerning Luther and the Jewish People. I do not play favorites.

Compare the life's of your prophets with Jesus. that is the true test.

We all sin from time to time. I John 1:8-10

 

[Peter1000]

The issue is what is truth. I do not accept news paper or tv news they both are known for being inaccurate. Even if the guy was into inappropriate content..... as I said before. If he was, then his lifestyle is wrong. But, that does not negate the truth.

You have completely as far as I know went down a red haring path to avoid the ugly truth that your leaders and prophets were racists and therefore not Christians. I would hold the same position concerning Luther and the Jewish People. I do not play favorites.

Compare the life's of your prophets with Jesus. that is the true test.

We all sin from time to time. I John 1:8-10

We only have a little snapshot of Jesus's life, so it is hard to compare. But compare any Christian's life to Jesus and we fall way short, fabulous leaders of the past and present, or common person, we all fall short if you want to compare to Jesus's life.

 

[Ironhold]

Even if the guy was into inappropriate content..... as I said before. If he was, then his lifestyle is wrong. But, that does not negate the truth.

You were making the claim that Josh killing Susan was somehow proof that we're wrong and evil.

Instead,

1. Josh hadn't been an active member of the church for several years when Susan disappeared.

2. Josh's anti-Mormon father Steven had been actively perving on her, making him a prime suspect.

In response to this, you went off about how Steven was a "good" person for hating us and that you basically didn't care whether or not the charges against him were true because his hatred for us was, in your eyes, more important.

If that's not how you meant it, then it's sure how it comes across.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

...And you're dodging again.

I cited mainstream news outlets with solid reputations.

Disprove them if you don't like them. It's on you now.

One does not have to disprove a negative. It is up to you to prove a positive.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...&ved=0ahUKEwi_q4mGuPbjAhVGJKwKHcaEByYQ4dUDCAs

"ABC News had to correct a report indicating that Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn acted on Donald Trump’s instructions in allegedly violating the Logan Act under instruction by Donald Trump. "Not fake news, just plain wrong: Top media corrections of 2017 - Poynter

The Decades Biggest Journalism Blunders The Decades Biggest Journalism Blunders | Journalism Journeyman

Feb 14, 2002 - A Mormon official called media coverage of the church biased and sloppy...
https://www.google.com/search?sourc...hUKEwijv7qiufbjAhVC1qwKHYBGAb0Q4dUDCAc&uact=5

Can Americans Tell Factual From Opinion Statements in the News?
Trust in the Media: a conversation with former journalism professor Doris Schmidt. – Alliance for a Better Utah

mistakes in utah journalism history - Google Search

 

[Daniel Marsh]

And your proof that the news reports I cited are wrong are...?

Yes, mistakes happen. But you're presuming things.

You have not proven they are correct from more reliable sources.

For the sake of discussion, I will grant they are possibly correct which does not change truth.

Now, deal with the major problems of your prophets.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Mr Young said or wrote,

"
I have fed fifty Indians almost day by day for months together. I always give them something, but I never forget to treat them like Indians; and they are always mannerly and kind, and look upon me as their superior. Never let them come into your houses, as the whites did in Utah [County]. There they would let them lounge upon their beds, until finally they would quarrel and become angry, if the women would not let them lounge upon their beds. Great, big, athletic fellows would want to go into the wickeups of the "Mormons," and lounge upon their beds, and sit on their tables and on their chairs, and make as free as though they belonged to the family. When their familiarities became oppressive to the whites, and they desired them to leave their houses, it made them angry, and I knew it would. This is the true cause of the Indian difficulties in Utah.

I say to the brethren who live in the country, Treat the Indians kindly; and now is the time to finish your forts, and make them doubly strong; and then go to with all your might and prepare places to keep your cattle, that neither white nor red man can, possibly steal them from you. If you want to know how strong to build your forts and your cattle yards, I will answer you as I did the brethren when we left Nauvoo. They wanted to know what kind of lariets they must provide, and how securely they must tie their animals. I said, "Tie them so that the Devil cannot get them." Secure yourselves, then, so that you can lie down and sleep in peace and be comfortable. Now is the time for us to make efforts to build places of safety.

Our meeting has continued about as long as we wished it. The brethren will sing, and we will adjourn till to-morrow morning at ten o'clock. *Journal of Discourses Volume 6 Proper Treatment of the Indians Etc.

Commentary by Phillip B Gottfredson

The above discourse by Brigham Young is bitterly racist. The words he uses to describe the Indian people such as "low" "degraded" "red man" and "treat them like Indians" and "not as your equals" Brigham Young clearly teaches his followers to discriminate, and that both he and they are superior to their "red neighbors," and are "their saviors." Brigham states that "It is our duty to teach them good morals and the principles of the Gospel of Christ" and that "the Lord will take care of the rest of it."

While Brigham acknowledges that his Indian policies in the past have failed and that a new course of action must be taken, and he acknowledges that he and his followers have run them off their land and have caused them to suffer starvation and hardship, still he justifies his beliefs that he and his followers are superior to the Indian people in the eyes of God and are therefore pardoned of any wrong doing.

Brigham admonishes his followers not to treat the Indian people like the rest of the United States has, "the inhabitants of the United States have treated the Indians in like manner. If but one person or only a few were guilty of committing a depredation upon a white settlement, they have chastised the whole tribe for the crime, and would perhaps kill those who would fight and die for them," he says. Brigham's alternative course would be to single out individual perpetrators and bring them to trial in a all white court, with an all white jury, and under white man's law be tried and punished accordingly."
Utah's Brigham Young's Discourses On Indian Relations

 

[Peter1000]

Mr Young said or wrote,

"
I have fed fifty Indians almost day by day for months together. I always give them something, but I never forget to treat them like Indians; and they are always mannerly and kind, and look upon me as their superior. Never let them come into your houses, as the whites did in Utah [County]. There they would let them lounge upon their beds, until finally they would quarrel and become angry, if the women would not let them lounge upon their beds. Great, big, athletic fellows would want to go into the wickeups of the "Mormons," and lounge upon their beds, and sit on their tables and on their chairs, and make as free as though they belonged to the family. When their familiarities became oppressive to the whites, and they desired them to leave their houses, it made them angry, and I knew it would. This is the true cause of the Indian difficulties in Utah.

I say to the brethren who live in the country, Treat the Indians kindly; and now is the time to finish your forts, and make them doubly strong; and then go to with all your might and prepare places to keep your cattle, that neither white nor red man can, possibly steal them from you. If you want to know how strong to build your forts and your cattle yards, I will answer you as I did the brethren when we left Nauvoo. They wanted to know what kind of lariets they must provide, and how securely they must tie their animals. I said, "Tie them so that the Devil cannot get them." Secure yourselves, then, so that you can lie down and sleep in peace and be comfortable. Now is the time for us to make efforts to build places of safety.

Our meeting has continued about as long as we wished it. The brethren will sing, and we will adjourn till to-morrow morning at ten o'clock. *Journal of Discourses Volume 6 Proper Treatment of the Indians Etc.

Commentary by Phillip B Gottfredson

The above discourse by Brigham Young is bitterly racist. The words he uses to describe the Indian people such as "low" "degraded" "red man" and "treat them like Indians" and "not as your equals" Brigham Young clearly teaches his followers to discriminate, and that both he and they are superior to their "red neighbors," and are "their saviors." Brigham states that "It is our duty to teach them good morals and the principles of the Gospel of Christ" and that "the Lord will take care of the rest of it."

While Brigham acknowledges that his Indian policies in the past have failed and that a new course of action must be taken, and he acknowledges that he and his followers have run them off their land and have caused them to suffer starvation and hardship, still he justifies his beliefs that he and his followers are superior to the Indian people in the eyes of God and are therefore pardoned of any wrong doing.

Brigham admonishes his followers not to treat the Indian people like the rest of the United States has, "the inhabitants of the United States have treated the Indians in like manner. If but one person or only a few were guilty of committing a depredation upon a white settlement, they have chastised the whole tribe for the crime, and would perhaps kill those who would fight and die for them," he says. Brigham's alternative course would be to single out individual perpetrators and bring them to trial in a all white court, with an all white jury, and under white man's law be tried and punished accordingly."
Utah's Brigham Young's Discourses On Indian Relations

BY was wrestling with a huge problem. His solution was to treat the Indians with kindness. The problem was as soon as you treat them with kindness, they want more and more and it starts to become a problem.

BY was probably a little racist toward the Indian. All of our great men and women and clergy in America as a whole were a little racist against Indians, and could kill an Indian and not be prosecuted, so do you really what to talk about racism against the Indian?

Because the white man came to the Salt Lake Valley and started to expand, the Indians began to steal horses and cattle and it became a much larger problem.

I think BY dealt with the Indian problem better than any other American leader at that time. I would put his record up against any general or president or governor of any part of America at that time. He did very well, so we are OK with his leadership, under the circumstances.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Sublimus Dei
On the Enslavement and Evangelization of Indians

Pope Paul III

To all faithful Christians to whom this writing may come, health in Christ our Lord and the apostolic benediction.
The sublime God so loved the human race that He created man in such wise that he might participate, not only in the good that other creatures enjoy, but endowed him with capacity to attain to the inaccessible and invisible Supreme Good and behold it face to face; and since man, according to the testimony of the sacred scriptures, has been created to enjoy eternal life and happiness, which none may obtain save through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, it is necessary that he should possess the nature and faculties enabling him to receive that faith; and that whoever is thus endowed should be capable of receiving that same faith. Nor is it credible that any one should possess so little understanding as to desire the faith and yet be destitute of the most necessary faculty to enable him to receive it. Hence Christ, who is the Truth itself, that has never failed and can never fail, said to the preachers of the faith whom He chose for that office ‘Go ye and teach all nations.’ He said all, without exception, for all are capable of receiving the doctrines of the faith.

The enemy of the human race, who opposes all good deeds in order to bring men to destruction, beholding and envying this, invented a means never before heard of, by which he might hinder the preaching of God’s word of Salvation to the people: he inspired his satellites who, to please him, have not hesitated to publish abroad that the Indians of the West and the South, and other people of whom We have recent knowledge should be treated as dumb brutes created for our service, pretending that they are incapable of receiving the Catholic Faith.

We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge, consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and that they are not only capable of understanding the Catholic Faith but, according to our information, they desire exceedingly to receive it. Desiring to provide ample remedy for these evils, We define and declare by these Our letters, or by any translation thereof signed by any notary public and sealed with the seal of any ecclesiastical dignitary, to which the same credit shall be given as to the originals, that, notwithstanding whatever may have been or may be said to the contrary, the said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ; and that they may and should, freely and legitimately, enjoy their liberty and the possession of their property; nor should they be in any way enslaved; should the contrary happen, it shall be null and have no effect.

By virtue of Our apostolic authority We define and declare by these present letters, or by any translation thereof signed by any notary public and sealed with the seal of any ecclesiastical dignitary, which shall thus command the same obedience as the originals, that the said Indians and other peoples should be converted to the faith of Jesus Christ by preaching the word of God and by the example of good and holy living.

Sublimus Dei On the Enslavement and Evangelization of Indians

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The Book of Resolutions of The United Methodist Church says, "The General Conference of The United Methodist Church affirms the sacredness of American Indian people, their languages, cultures, and gifts to the church and the world.We call upon the world, and the people of The United Methodist Church to receive the gifts of Native Americans, including American Indians, Alaska Natives, and Native Hawaiians, as people of God. We allow for the work of the Great Spirit/God among our communities and tribes without prejudice" (Resolution #3321). In addition, the Book of Acts in the New Testament says, "Then Peter began to speak to them: 'I truly understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him'" (Acts 10:34-35).
Native Cultures | West Ohio Conference of The United Methodist Church

 

[Daniel Marsh]

From the arrival of the Franciscan friars from the American Midwest in the late 1800’s, the missionary spirit has and continues to be realized in Native American Nations surrounded by the State of Arizona. In the early days of their ministry, friars worked hard to establish schools and represent Native interests in Washington DC. They also compiled the first dictionaries and grammars in some of the Native languages. Today friars work alongside the Apache and the Tohono O’odham peoples in creating new expressions of Native culture in liturgy and prayer. They also try to respond to the host of social and economic challenges that lie beyond the doors of village chapels.

Native American Ministry | Franciscan Friars

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Capuchin friars have been working on the Northern Cheyenne Reservation since 1926, though the mission began there in the late 1800’s by a lone Jesuit priest traveling on horseback. Centered in Ashland Montana at St. Labre Parish and School, the friars also serve the Catholic communities at Lame Deer, Busby, and the surrounding area.
Montana Native American Reservations | Capuchin Franciscan Province of St. Joseph

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Someone is complaining about me. So, I am going to take a break from this area of the forum.

 

[Peter1000]

Someone is complaining about me. So, I am going to take a break from this area of the forum.

Sorry for that, hope to see you back again.