Identity Chrisis: Slander

[xDenax]

Really?? Every time I try to debate anyone on here, it usually comes down to how they feel or what they think about things, not what scripture says or even history. Qnts is a prime example. None of her arguments on the Yeshua and Hanukkah thread have anything to do with history or reality, just how she thinks it affects Jews.

HUH? I don't read all of her posts but from what I've seen her replies do often have to do with the history of Jews and the reality of Jewish life. She puts a spin on it with which I disagree (obviously) but she doesn't appear to reply based on her feelings.

 

[pat34lee]

HUH? I don't read all of her posts but from what I've seen her replies do often have to do with the history of Jews and the reality of Jewish life. She puts a spin on it with which I disagree (obviously) but she doesn't appear to reply based on her feelings.

The problem is that she doesn't always argue using facts. She argues by what she thinks, which can sound reasonable even when her premise is false. She and a few others also have a habit of throwing in straw man arguments; like replacement theology into two house. Just because some people believe both does not make them the same.

 

[ContraMundum]

I would read it too. As a Jewish believer Staley is anti-semetic with a twist.

I don't think Staley is Jewish. Actually I'm pretty sure he isn't.

Are you saying that as a Jewish believer yourself you think Staley is anti-semitic?

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Just an observation....

Many people keep stating "anti-Semitic", but are not being specific as to how/what/why.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Then you should stop putting up walls and rejecting fuller knowledge.



I agree. Two Housers are all about emotion.

Fer sher!

It's posts like these from Mishkan which cause me to fully appreciate his signature and title tag-lines...

 

[ContraMundum]

While I agree on a few of the points made there, as with arguments here, most of the arguments against him are either taking his words out of context or twisting and adding on to what he says so that it means something else.

I was going to make my own list, but I think we covered most of the arguments he posed on this thread, and they don't hold.

The issue is this- Staley is very emotive. I think he uses cultic NLP as well. Not deliverately. He's just been under a certain type of group mentality where it is embedded, and he is copying and propagating what he knows and how he thinks teaching is done in "church".

His theology is easily refuted by simple exegesis. People here do not have the time to invest to flog the dead horse that is 2HT. Sure, he may have a few points to make- but that is easy when using the Bible. Some truth is always mixed in there, as the Bible is truth. But even the worst of soups can be made with the freshest of ingredients.

Anyway- I can think of no better illustration of Staley doing theology than this:

MasterChef Speed Cooking! - YouTube

 

[ContraMundum]

Just an observation....

Many people keep stating "anti-Semitic", but are not being specific as to how/what/why.

Easy. Stating that the contemporary Jewish people are not the "real Jews" is saying that they have no favor with God, that they are frauds or deluded about their identity etc.

This "bottom line" is no different in effect than anything Hitler said.

 

[mishkan]

It's posts like these from Mishkan which cause me to fully appreciate his signature and title tag-lines...

Oh, please. Some people take themselves too seriously.

Sometimes, you just have to give these sorts of "discussions" all the seriousness and credibility they deserve. Part of advocating for maturity is knowing when to laugh at the silly and foolish.

 

[pat34lee]

Easy. Stating that the contemporary Jewish people are not the "real Jews" is saying that they have no favor with God, that they are frauds or deluded about their identity etc.

This "bottom line" is no different in effect than anything Hitler said.

Those statements are outright lies. Retract them.

 

[pat34lee]

Oh, please. Some people take themselves too seriously.

Sometimes, you just have to give these sorts of "discussions" all the seriousness and credibility they deserve. Part of advocating for maturity is knowing when to laugh at the silly and foolish.

Somehow I figured which way that would go.

 

[Qnts2]

Really?? Every time I try to debate anyone on here, it usually comes down to how they feel or what they think about things, not what scripture says or even history. Qnts is a prime example. None of her arguments on the Yeshua and Hanukkah thread have anything to do with history or reality, just how she thinks it affects Jews.

In this thread, people are constantly taking what Staley says (and what I say for that matter) out of context or adding in things that he doesn't say, assuming that he 'meant it' or 'implied it'. I don't care who believes in two house. As I have defined it, it is a fact of history and scripture, not an opinion. It is not British Israelism, and it is not replacement theology.

I have given multiple posts with evidence, including history, scripture, DNA science, the statements from Messianic Judaism leaders refuting Two House.

As have many others.

Two House is at the basics, both anti-semitic, and Replacement theology. Neither which is allowed to be taught on the forum.

 

[mishkan]

Somehow I figured which way that would go.

That's good. I really was just kidding around. You were sucking all the air out of the room, being oh-so-serious about a doctrine for which you have zero evidence.

The doctrine is clearly designed to minimize the Jewish people while elevating Gentiles who regard themselves as "Ephraim-by-fiat". You may not personally understand why that is anti-Semitic, but you might want to consider why both Jews and Gentiles on this forum stand against it.

I always found it too high a hurdle to think I can declare myself of a certain blood lineage with absolutely no evidence to suggest my family comes from that line. The whole concept is beyond reason, or reasonable discussion.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Easy. Stating that the contemporary Jewish people are not the "real Jews" is saying that they have no favor with God, that they are frauds or deluded about their identity etc.

This "bottom line" is no different in effect than anything Hitler said.

Personally, I was wondering why it seems that the ideology of Jewish people not being "real Jews"/having no favor with God is continually noted - both by Pat and others - to not be supported....with there being documented cases (be it on the forum or elsewhere) where they've even waged war against others denoucning Jewish people as not being "real Jews" ....and yet it is still claimed that what he/others hold to (if saying that they support Two-House) is anti-semitic.

To me, that's no different than one seeing another who claims to be a Militant Believer and assuming that the term they're using must mean they're like the KKK or some other hate/extremist group because they used the same language/terms - even though the qualifications/definitions for those terms are radically different from the context.

If we are to give grace to others when they claim to be One Law or with someone as wild as a Tim Hegg - even as others doing so are against all things Two House because of how they see it - the same applies here. And if we don't do that, then we're inconsistent (IMHO).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Just an observation....

Many people keep stating "anti-Semitic", but are not being specific as to how/what/why.

I agree. The definition they place forth, from what I have seen, is indeed something that is to be deemed anti-Semitic and I am glad it has been noted. However, what is problematic is what appears to be innocent sidestepping or blantant ignoral of the ways that many in Two-House circles have never in the formation of their own groups supported that ideology and have spoken against it....and ultimately, it seems that people are making caricatures/judgements based on the term "Two House"/how it was defined in early movements from select groups rather than dealing case-by-case with the many who've done differently throughout the ages.

Really, it's no different than what has occurred when it comes to the ways that the Messianic Jewish movement was condemned early on for many extremes it went to in the 60s/70s and they later reformed them - with papers given on why/how they changed. Just because others later on came in the name of Messianic Judaism doesn't mean they're to be seen as exactly the same as the extremes that were present in earlier days - as that'd be prejudiced. There have been given multiple posts with evidence, including history, scripture, DNA science, articles and direct statements from Messianic Judaism leaders who've noted both the extrmes of Two House and the ways others in Two-House cirlces have refuted others doing those extremes.

 

[yedida]

t stands to reason that closet-mainstream Christians are not gonna have too many problems with 2-House Theology!

 

[Qnts2]

Personally, I was wondering why it seems that the ideology of Jewish people not being "real Jews"/having no favor with God is continually noted - both by Pat and others - to not be supported....with there being documented cases (be it on the forum or elsewhere) where they've even waged war against others denoucning Jewish people as not being "real Jews" ....and yet it is still claimed that what he/others hold to (if saying that they support Two-House) is anti-semitic.

To me, that's no different than one seeing another who claims to be a Militant Believer and assuming that the term they're using must mean they're like the KKK or some other hate/extremist group because they used the same language/terms - even though the qualifications/definitions for those terms are radically different from the context.

If we are to give grace to others when they claim to be One Law or with someone as wild as a Tim Hegg - even as others doing so are against all things Two House because of how they see it - the same applies here. And if we don't do that, then we're inconsistent (IMHO).

While Messianic Judaism does not support One Law or Two House, Two House does land in a different category.

They both have some similarities, but One Law Gentiles do not attempt to claim to be Israel. That is a significant difference between Two House and One Law.

Messianic Judaism, as I have repeatedly stated is a Jewish movement. Two House denies Jewish views, Jewish terminology and denies who the Jewish people are. So, it is not a part of a Jewish movement and therefore is not Messianic Judaism.

The denial of who the Jewish people are, while claiming to be Israel, or the 10 lost tribes is a typical view of anti-semitic groups. It comes from British Israelism or Christian Identity. From this forum, no matter how many times I explained who the Jewish people were, to Two House proponents, I was told I was wrong. In response to my explanation, some lies or rather nasty things were said about the Jewish people.

The KKK is antisemitic, as were the Nazis. Philosophically, the Nazis were closer to a form of British Israelism.

The KKK in their anti-semitic rantings are actually closer to standard Replacement theology (the Jewish people sinned their way out of chosenness and now the Church is Israel) plus Kenite beliefs (Either the Jews, or blacks or anyone of color are actually seed of Cain).

British Israelism believes they are the lost 10 tribes, but then goes on to say the Jews of today are not part of Israel. Rather they are Khazars, and have usurped the land and the title of Israel.

Some segments of both and others groups, buy into serpent seed theology.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

While Messianic Judaism does not support One Law or Two House, Two House does land in a different category.

They both have some similarities, but One Law Gentiles do not attempt to claim to be Israel. That is a significant difference between Two House and One Law.
.

There've actually been several threads - here and on other forums some of the posters here participate in - where the focus has definately been on how Gentiles must identify with Israel if they're to have "Biblical Theology"...and it's why many in Messianic Judaism have repeatedly noted where it's a big issue, in the same realm as replacement. Some of the threads you actually participated in yourself/noted such when talking on what the MJAA promoted..

If need be, I will come back later after I'm done with some other activities and give the respective threads where direct commentary was shared.

Messianic Judaism, as I have repeatedly stated is a Jewish movement.

Indeed - and as others have noted equally, being a Jewish movement is not the same as having Gentiles recognize where they have a calling like Ruth to aid/identify with Jewish culture or note (with support from other Jews) where they have Hebrew roots/background. The early Messianic Jewish community was one where Jew/Gentile worked together (Acts 11 being the most prominent amongst other examples) and other Gentiles and Jews have noted the same where the focus of MJism is Jewish culture emphasised. Others in multiple Two-House circles have noted the same when it comes to outreach amongst the Jewish people.

Two House denies Jewish views, Jewish terminology and denies who the Jewish people are. So, it is not a part of a Jewish movement and therefore is not Messianic Judaism.

Nothing noted there addresses at AHY point what numerous Two House groups have said counter to that and have lived out for ages....as they already have Jewish people present, Jewish terminology and noting that the Jewish people are God's people.

Seriously, unless one actually is able to deal with what others in Two-House have said on the matter counter to that - and the only option to resort to is bringing up all others in Two House who do as you say (which still doesn't address the many Two-House/others working with them, including Messianic Mommy), it does not deal with Two- House...and as sevenbeans noted, it is an assertion that doesn't deal with what others have said for a long time. There were already other Jewish rabbis who've noted support for aspects of Two House (Yair being supported by them - as noted before) and there's no way of trying to minimize that.


http://www.christianforums.com/t7706738-25/#post62008422

The denial of who the Jewish people are, while claiming to be Israel, or the 10 lost tribes is a typical view of anti-semitic groups. It comes from British Israelism or Christian Identity

Again, everything you noted was already addressed earlier - and by others - no matter how many times it's avoided. Never has been the case that all Two-House have denied who the Jewish people are nor has it been the case that the concept of seeing where there's connection to one of the 10 lost tribes has been solely an Anti-semitic view. Happened for centuries with many Jewish and Gentile groups - long before anything with the term "Two House" developed....and thus, it is erronoeous claimign that British Israelism or Christian Identity was the beginning of that since those things were categorically different from what others did concerning studies in ancestry.

More was already shared in-depth elsewhere, as seen here or here or here or here or here.

From this forum, no matter how many times I explained who the Jewish people were, to Two House proponents, I was told I was wrong. In response to my explanation, some lies or rather nasty things were said about the Jewish people.

Truthfully, inaccuracies and false statements have not been one - sided ...for I've seen it all around. Some of the people you responded to did not give an accurate statement of what you felt or what others believed - but on the same token, I must say that there have been several occasions that the same things you noted on others were either done by yourself or others who may've agreed. Other times, some of the repsonses you gave seemed over the top (IMHO)/basically reactions rather than thoughtful handlings of what others said - and I do agree with others who've noted that many of the claims on nasty things of Jewish people were caricatures/placing words in the mouths of others.

The KKK is antisemitic, as were the Nazis. Philosophically, the Nazis were closer to a form of British Israelism.

Actually much of British Israelism had direct connections with British Zionism when it came to forms of anti-semitism that were hidden - even though it may've claimed love for God's people.

Other Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles have commented before on the matter and how it was an issue/didn't need to be done, but if it continues...it is what it is. People will believe what they believe regardless.

The KKK in their anti-semitic rantings are actually closer to standard Replacement theology (the Jewish people sinned their way out of chosenness and now the Church is Israel) plus Kenite beliefs (Either the Jews, or blacks or anyone of color are actually seed of Cain).

British Israelism believes they are the lost 10 tribes, but then goes on to say the Jews of today are not part of Israel. Rather they are Khazars, and have usurped the land and the title of Israel.

That's true of the British Israelism and one of the reasons others (including many Two House) stand against it. Nonetheless, they are not the standard for what all believe.

One can ask fellow Jewish believers on the issue like Messianic Mommy directly as she has noted that before.
.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

t stands to reason that closet-mainstream Christians are not gonna have too many problems with 2-House Theology!

Actually a lot of them do. What they do have issue with, however, is One Law where it's claimed Gentiles/Jews are bound to live by the same laws and be the same in order to qualify as the One New Man or be pleasing in the eyes of the Lord - and Messianic Jews have noted that for a long time as a significant issue..

 

[Qnts2]

There've actually been several threads - here and on other forums some of the posters here participate in - where the focus has definately been on how Gentiles must identify with Israel if they're to have "Biblical Theology"...and it's why many in Messianic Judaism have repeatedly noted where it's a big issue, in the same realm as replacement. Some of the threads you actually participated in yourself/noted such when talking on what the MJAA promoted..

If need be, I will come back later after I'm done with some other activities and give the respective threads where direct commentary was shared.


Indeed - and as others have noted, the early Messianic Jewish community was one where Jew/Gentile worked together and other Gentiles and Jews have noted the same where the focus of MJism is Jewish culture emphasised. Others in multiple Two-House circles have noted the same when it comes to outreach amongst the Jewish people.
Nothing noted there addresses at ANHY point what numerous Two House groups have said counter to that and have lived out for ages....as they already have Jewish people present, Jewish terminology and noting that the Jewish people are God's people.

Unless one actually is able to deal with what others in Two-House have said on the matter counter to that - and the only option to resort to is bringing up all others in Two House who do as you say (which still doesn't address the many Two-House/others working with them, including Messianic Mommy), it does not deal with Two- House...and as sevenbeans noted, it is an assertion that doesn't deal with what others have said for a long time.

Again, everything you noted was already addressed earlier - and by others - no matter how many times it's avoided.

.

Two House actually does not use 'Jewish terminology'. They use an imitation of what they think Jewish terminology is. It is a misuse of Jewish terminology. Kind of like when a white person tries to mimic black terminology and culture. It is not the same, and is easily identified. To make matters worse, they then tell the Jewish people who they are (of course not true) and insist that the Jewish people should believe and act they way Two House wants us to.

One law emphasizes the as Gentiles they become a member of the common wealth of Israel while remaining Israel. Two House says they (or many) are Israel.

While I disagree with One Law (saying the Gentiles must keep the law), it is possible for God to call a Gentile to practice the law. Scripture specifically says that Gentiles are called to Yeshua, and are not to become Jews. Since Gentiles are called to Yeshua, as prophesied, the Two House belief that Gentiles are actually Israel/Jews is a false teaching, and replacement theology.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Personally, I don't believe a people can replace a people.

Just as with secular adoption, the adopted child has their own genealogy which is different from the family which they were adopted into. They may have siblings who were naturally born to the adopted parents. Yet, they are one family. The adopted child does not replace the natural child. Just as a natural child cannot replace another natural child. They are individuals. A parent recognizes his children, whether natural or adopted, they are his children.

Relate this to the topic at hand, and this is the way I see it...

There are 12 tribes, none has replaced the other, none has been done away with. They are one family, 12 natural siblings, with descendants innumerable, as the stars in the heavens. The adopted children, so to speak, who have different genealogies, do not replace the natural. Scripturally, in the Torah, when the House of Israel comes out of Egypt, with the mixed multitude, those who are named are the 12 tribes. As they march and when they are numbered, they are in 12 divisions. Was this mixed multitude adopted in to each of the 12 divisions? Or are they just unnamed and unnumbered? Consistently throughout the OT and NT, prophecy, etc., there are 12 family groups forming the one family. Recognized by YHWH.

This does not minimize, it only looks at the family in its original form.

For Gentiles to call themselves Ephraim is presumptuous without asking the true Ephraimites for acceptance into their tribe. Without even understanding anything of the ways/customs/traditions of Ephraim. Just as it would be for Gentiles to call themselves Judah without asking for acceptance. As some children in foster care look for a suitable family, one where they feel they fit in, the same can be said of the tribe.

When Moshe was explaining the Last Days, he mentions all 12 tribes separately. Was he anti-Semitic for not just calling them "Jews"?