Identity Chrisis: Slander

[pat34lee]

I see that someone removed the other thread with Jim Staley's teaching on it. The slandering of two house teachers I saw on it must stop because it is contemptible to continue to attack fellow believers based on lies. I listened to the whole teaching and found it very informative. How much did you listen to before falsely labeling him as a replacement theologist, QNTS?

Jim Staley - Identity Crisis -This message will change your world! - YouTube

He has a few answers to questions starting about 1:10. The second Q&A directly answers accusations of replacement theology.

 

[yedida]

I'm listening right now, about30 minutes into it and it sure sounds 2-House to me! It's taken a generous amount of the Hebrew Scriptures away from the Jews! Not a good thing in my opinion.

 

[pat34lee]

I'm listening right now, about30 minutes into it and it sure sounds 2-House to me! It's taken a generous amount of the Hebrew Scriptures away from the Jews! Not a good thing in my opinion.

It is 2 house, but not replacement theology. The only thing I disagree with him is that the Jews are not one tribe, though the name comes from one. They are mostly two and a half tribes with a scattering from other tribes that lived in Judah or fled there when the northern tribes were taken.

He acknowledges that it took the Jews to get the Tanakh through history and on to us today, but they are still only part of the whole of Israel.

 

[yedida]

Up to about 58 mins., it's not RT,it's just the opposite. It just takes non-Israelites out of the picture all together, which is another problem with 2-House. If you ain't part of the Jews or of the "lost tribes" tuff tootie. Not scriptural either.

 

[yedida]

1 hour into it, it does become RT.

 

[pat34lee]

1 hour into it, it does become RT.

I thought that when he started in on Christians and Israel, but he makes a distinction between those grafted in to Israel and Israel by birth.

 

[macher]

I thought that when he started in on Christians and Israel, but he makes a distinction between those grafted in to Israel and Israel by birth.

What got me was the me mention of Gentile Israelites, lol.

This is replacement theology with a twist.

There's definitely a growing agenda to have believers believe there are children of Israel. This is salvation by works with a twist. Because the premise is if you aren't Israel you can't be subject to the promises.

Look how he applies Ephesians 2. He says the strangers and foreigners in Eph 2 is referring to northern Kingdom. Anyway he fails to reckon that the prophecy was fulfilled prior.

 

[pat34lee]

What got me was the me mention of Gentile Israelites, lol.

This is replacement theology with a twist.

There's definitely a growing agenda to have believers believe there are children of Israel. This is salvation by works with a twist. Because the premise is if you aren't Israel you can't be subject to the promises.

That is backwards. We are grafted in because we are saved, not the other way. It is the same difference as following the law because we want to please YHWH, not because we think it makes us righteous.

 

[macher]

That is backwards. We are grafted in because we are saved, not the other way. It is the same difference as following the law because we want to please YHWH, not because we think it makes us righteous.

But just because you are grafted in doesn't make you a physical descendant of Israel. What Staley is doing is making you think you are what he labels a gentile Israelite. In fact the label gentile Israelite is so bazaar it's not even funny.

 

[pat34lee]

Look how he applies Ephesians 2. He says the strangers and foreigners in Eph 2 is referring to northern Kingdom. Anyway he fails to reckon that the prophecy was fulfilled prior.

Which prophecy? There are many regarding the return of the northern kingdom, and they haven't returned yet. Look at the following verse he mentioned also.

James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
​

Is there any doubt who he is talking about?

 

[macher]

Which prophecy? There are many regarding the return of the northern kingdom, and they haven't returned yet. Look at the following verse he mentioned also.

James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
​

Is there any doubt who he is talking about?

Sure he was referring to the 12 tribes. Not all children of Israel lived in the land.

Take me and my family we don't live in the Land.

 

[pat34lee]

But just because you are grafted in doesn't make you a physical descendant of Israel. What Staley is doing is making you think you are what he labels a gentile Israelite. In fact the label gentile Israelite is so bazaar it's not even funny.

If I remember correctly, he said you can't be a gentile Christian, as gentile means out of covenant. How could you be gentile Israel then? He never said being grafted in made us physical Israel, but spiritually Israel or Hebrew.

 

[pat34lee]

Sure he was referring to the 12 tribes. Not all children of Israel lived in the land.

Take me and my family we don't live in the Land.

You are not part of the scattered (diaspora) though. Very few of the diaspora returned to become part of the Jews. Most are still among the nations living as gentiles.

 

[macher]

If I remember correctly, he said you can't be a gentile Christian, as gentile means out of covenant. How could you be gentile Israel then? He never said being grafted in made us physical Israel, but spiritually Israel or Hebrew.

Gentile doesn't mean out of covenant. In context you're either a child of Israel or not. If you're not then you're a gentile like Cornelius. In the Torah God never condemns Israel for mingling with gentiles that believe and worship the God of Israel.

There are promises made to the physical descendants of Israel that gentiles are not subject too.

 

[macher]

You are not part of the scattered (diaspora) though. Very few of the diaspora returned to become part of the Jews. Most are still among the nations living as gentiles.

Sure I am part of the diaspora. I live in the diaspora as I am typing this post.

 

[yedida]

In short, Pat, Staley is just not a good teacher to listen to. What's gonna happen to you if per chance it turns out that you are not part of Ephraim? Not a whole lot good according to his interpretation of the scriptures.

 

[pat34lee]

In short, Pat, Staley is just not a good teacher to listen to. What's gonna happen to you if per chance it turns out that you are not part of Ephraim? Not a whole lot good according to his interpretation of the scriptures.

That is in the last few minutes of the Q&A. You don't have to be anything. People from other nations have been able to join with Israel from the beginning. "One law for you and the sojourner," etc. Now that we can be saved without joining them first (circumcision, etc.), it's even easier.

 

[yedida]

I listened to the whole thing - nothing much redeeming to it. But you're not gonna be swayed and I'm not gonna be convinced so we're kinda at an impasse.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

That is in the last few minutes of the Q&A. You don't have to be anything. People from other nations have been able to join with Israel from the beginning. "One law for you and the sojourner," etc. Now that we can be saved without joining them first (circumcision, etc.), it's even easier.

I agree with most of what you've said here. A covenant was made with a household. This household is the House of Israel (Jacob). Those wanting to enter into the same covenant are requesting to be "adopted" or "grafted" into this household. This household consists of 12 separate groups of people, most are assimilated to the nations they were scattered to, though some groups of people within these nations carry an oral tradition (and some ritual tradition) that they came out of Israel (even if specific tribal identity has been lost). The root supports the branches, so those adopted in have to depend on the root to sustain their existence. It is my opinion this has nothing to do with conversion, but rather acceptance of a people who have a willingness to take on the yoke of the covenant. Part of being adopted is taking on the family name, part of being grafted in is taking the name of the tree.

What is absolutely needed is a Restorer of Truth, one who will teach the pure form of Torah, so that the House of Israel and all those adopted in can become "echad", united to become one in mind and soul.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Interesting...