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Identity Chrisis: Slander

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by pat34lee, Dec 23, 2012.

  1. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Thank God for His spirit being given :)
     
  2. daq

    daq Messianic

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    ''Petros: Tarry here and minister to my circumcised!''
    [​IMG]
    ''Paulos: Go to the outer court and bring them in to be circumcised!''
    "Ioannou Markos: Thrust out the outer court and measure it not!"
    :)
     
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,269
    Messianic
    This just keeps getting better and better...
    I believe that this illustration is closer to the truth than what has been presented so far... there is so much more to than what the circles within circles can represent...
    Think about it in the context of this verse.
     
  4. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Ahah! How did you know that was a rendition of the Ezekiel Temple body of Messiah? You know also the northern and southern gate locations are not specified so indeed it may be correct in the form of the Cross. :)

    Ezekiel 43:7-10 KJV
    7. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
    8. In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
    9. Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
    10. Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
     
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Because God said His WAY is in the sanctuary...
     
  6. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Yes, and by the way it is purely a matter of opinion as to whether John is told to "leave out" or to "thrust out" the outer court. However, opinion is relative to understanding which, in the case of Scripture, should include the remainder of Scripture. Therefore, I say, it is "thrust out" the court which is without. Not that the perimeter measurements given in Ezekiel are of no effect, (600x600 cubits including the 50 cubit common-profane-suburbs roundabout) but rather that they are of symbolic meaning.

    Revelation 11:2 KJV
    2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, [GSN#1544 ekballo] and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    Original Strong's Ref. #1544
    Romanized ekballo
    Pronounced ek-bal'-lo
    from GSN1537 and GSN0906; to eject (literally or figuratively):
    KJV--bring forth, cast (forth, out), drive (out), expel, leave, pluck (pull, take, thrust) out, put forth (out), send away (forth, out).

    Likewise there remains a "circle" yet it now engulfs the whole terrain globe.
    In this manner also Jerusalem remains the forever Capitol … :)

    Ezekiel 43:10-12 KJV
    10. Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
    11. And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
    12. This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
     
  7. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    I wouldn't go so far to say that the diagram of the sanctuary is accurate on those minor boxes which give the cross image... maybe a better illustration is one without the extra little boxes on the side...[​IMG]
     
  8. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Well we are getting further from the topic but I will just say that what you have posted is a rendition of the "Solomon Temple" design, (the Solomon Portico or Solomon's Porch, with the pillars, was an intregal part of both the first and second Temples). The gates are not the same in the Ezekiel Temple which has six gates; inner and outer eastern, inner and outer northern, inner and outer southern, and those gates are what you appear to be calling "little boxes" from my diagram. The Ezekiel Temple has no western gate, (top of my image file). :)
     
  9. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Also, none of these are of the original design that God gave Moses... So maybe to keep this from getting further away from the illustration of where the outer court is... let's use this one instead... [​IMG]
     
  10. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    The throne and the mercy seat are the same spot.. It is where God sits and judges from... from the Most Holy...:clap:
     
  11. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    I think it's interesting to consider that there was never a Court of Gentiles in the original tabernacle. For it was not just Gentiles - but even other everyday Hebrews included. The area known as the “Court of the Gentiles” was open to all, Jews and Gentiles, males or females, people of any class. Both Jews and Gentiles would congregate there - with the only exception being women during their menstrual period. Many activities went on in there, including the selling of sacrificial animals, teaching, bathing for purification, and even the ability to sleep.

    For a brief excerpt:
    Of course, on the same token, the original tabernacle set up in Exodus and later the Temple designed by David/made by Solomon did not seem to have type of Court for Gentiles. Yeshua had a lot of problems with others who'd take what was meant to help others pray - and turn it into a house for profit ( more shared here and here in #61 ).

    As said best elsewhere, "Jesus was angry that the holiness of the Temple was being violated by unscrupulousness money dealings, cheating and usury. Worshipers would come to the Temple with “pagan” money (i.e. money with images of pagan gods/emperors) to exchange it for the Temple currency which they could then present as a gift to G-d. And even though the Court of the Gentiles was very large, the Gentiles who came to worship G-d and to get a glimpse of the activities that went on in the Temple would find themselves crowded out by the various shops and tables of sellers peddling various items to visitors."



    And the Lord universalized a lot of things later to make clear His heart. Acts 7 comes to mind.

    Stephen refutes the final charge, that he has spoken imroperly against the Temple (Acts 6:13-14), by showing that it was the people, not God, who wanted a dwelling place or house more substantial than the Tent of Witness or "Tabernacle" originally authorized in the Torah. The concept of the temple came into more view under the life of David---as seen in 2 Samuel 7:1-3 and 2 Samuel 7 ( 1 Chronicles 22:4-6 and 1 Chronicles 24-26 )- --- when it came to his desire for a physical temple for God. The Lord conceded....and of course, the centralized location of Temple had its benefits---especially as it concerned management. There were many benefits to having a mobile place of God's dwelling....a church that's based on the concept that church is not a building as much as the people/God's prescence within us.

    In regards to Acts 7, Stephen seems to make the case that the Temple (as the Jews knew of it) was inferior to the Tabernacle..as seen in the case in Acts 7.

    The Temple didn't have as much significance in the NT church with Hebraic Christians as it did with those in mainline Judaism. For we read that they met in homes, sure, but they also had a “third” place they seemed to frequent on a daily basis – the temple courts (Acts 2:46). While they may have been there to engage in actual temple worship on a daily basis ( Acts 3:1), it is more likely they turned the temple courtyard into the equivalent of a first-century "Starbucks" in order to gather as a community (e.g., Acts 5:12)...in honor of what God did in making them His new temple.

    For others in the camp have noted, the first dwelling place God designed for Himself was a mobile home (a tabernacle) because He wanted to be on the move with His people. ....and as we see today, whenever we become focused solely on buildings rather than relationship, we end up not being able to do as Jesus did when he went to bring his message to places that others wouldn't go because they wouldn't go but to the Temple in Jerusalem. ...and the same mess also occurred with the Jews who had the OUTER symbolism of the Temple and yet they didn't have God's prescence..



    19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

    21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”





    16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.


    2 Corinthians 6:16
    What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”


    19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?


    In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.


     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  12. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    The repentant sinner brought his/her lamb and laid their hands on the head of the innocent lamb professing their sins... was that not done before the altar where they watched their lamb getting slaughtered..?? in the outer court area.??
     
  13. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Sigh.....some clean up was done again.

    Please keep it civil.
     
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