Identity Chrisis: Slander

[yedida]

I'm agreeing with you.

Sorry, I was agreeing with you and talking to Pat and SGB. Should have added their names in the last part, lol.

 

[Qnts2]

Here's a an explanation I hope will shed a better light.

An Israelite(Jew) in the flesh is one that is circumcised in the flesh according to Gen 17...If there are no fleshly Israelites(Jews) then there can be no promise of Messiah to the Israelites(Jews) who have not yet come to belief in Yeshua by faith. This is what Paul is saying in Romans 11.

The indentity crisis amongst non Israelites(Jews) seeks to replace this fact.

I agree.

I do think those who want to be something they are not is an identity crisis. They do not understand who they are as believers.

Simply put, our identity must be in Messiah and it is only our identity in Messiah which brings together diverse groups of people as one. Equal in the Lord, with a new identity in Messiah as a child of God.

To seek to be something different sees the different group as somehow superior which brings about jealousy, and jealousy brings about dislike of the group they are jealous of. So, they must somehow force the 'superior' group to accept them as members of that group. But there are no superior groups in Messiah. There is only one group, the assembly, in Messiah, while we come from different physical groups.

The feeling of inferiority (even though it is not true) causes strife. The New Creation in Messiah is our identity, no matter which race, ethnic group, or linage in the flesh.

Israel is a group of people of ethnicity by linage (and conversion). Israel is made up of people who are mostly unsaved, with some saved. The New Creations in Messiah, children of God by adoption, spiritual children of Abraham, all saved, have received eternal life, with Messiah living in them. This is the mystery spoken of by Paul, and the nation which is not a nation (ethnic group of common linage). This is what was prophesied.

So, the solution to the identity crisis is not Two House which emphasizes linage, but is the new creation, which has nothing to do with linage, but has everything to do with Yeshua and what He did, making us new.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

I agree.

I do think those who want to be something they are not is an identity crisis. They do not understand who they are as believers.

"Those who want to be something they are not..."

There are 12 trees in an orchard. They were all "born" out of the same parent tree.

A branch taken from a tree outside this orchard is grafted into a tree within the orchard. This branch is "wanting to be something it is not", it is therefore having an identity crisis. What do we call this grafted-in branch? Do we call it by its old name? Do we keep it segregated forever so we will always know its true identity? Does not the root which it was adopted to nourish it along with the all the rest of the natural branches? What is its new name? It would be called by the name of the one who took it to itself. It takes time to join to the tree and will have to be cared for and protected. It will eventually grow together with the rest of the tree and become indistinguishable from the rest of the natural branches as it learns the ways of its new family. It will have to go through every storm, every season, every fire, every drought, every experience, attached to the root of this tree. They are now in it together. The only way it can be separated once it is joined to the tree is to be cut off.

To seek to be something different sees the different group as somehow superior which brings about jealousy, and jealousy brings about dislike of the group they are jealous of. So, they must somehow force the 'superior' group to accept them as members of that group. But there are no superior groups in Messiah. There is only one group, the assembly, in Messiah, while we come from different physical groups.

The feeling of inferiority (even though it is not true) causes strife. The New Creation in Messiah is our identity, no matter which race, ethnic group, or linage in the flesh.

A branch, one that cannot be successfully grafted-in to the tree, is the one who should not be grafted-in. This would be against nature, it would cause problems, it would cause strife, the root/tree would reject it. It would not be beneficial to the tree. The graft wouldn't "take".

 

[sevengreenbeans]

And all are known as children of Israel. Calling oneself a child of Israel is not new.

I never said it was something new.

And since the Kingdom is no longer divided, we are all the House of Israel.

What Kingdom recognized on earth are you speaking of?
Or even spiritually for that matter? Your statement is strictly from a Messianic point of view and is exclusive.

The point is, all also call themselves Jewish, as that is the slang terminology for child of Israel.

This is a false statement. All the peoples I mentioned do not call themselves Jewish. You are working under the principle of assumption. It would be good if you could research these people a bit.

 

[macher]

So, the solution to the identity crisis is not Two House which emphasizes linage, but is the new creation, which has nothing to do with linage, but has everything to do with Yeshua and what He did, making us new.

The solution is biblical fact. Yeshua unites those that are circumcised and those who aren't into one united identity.

The indentity of my brethren in the flesh only matters because if there is no fleshly circumcised then there can be no promise to the circumcised, Romans 11. Actually being circumcised isn't salvific anyway.

 

[Qnts2]

I never said it was something new.



What Kingdom recognized on earth are you speaking of?
Or even spiritually for that matter? Your statement is strictly from a Messianic point of view and is exclusive.



This is a false statement. All the peoples I mentioned do not call themselves Jewish. You are working under the principle of assumption. It would be good if you could research these people a bit.

Israel, and the head Rabbis recognized the Beta Israel as Jewish, and as Jews, gave them the right to return. So they moved to Israel as Jews, with the right to return. Therefore, they accepted being Jewish.

The B'nai Menashe were forcibly converted to Christianity, and had contacted Israeli Rabbis to learn Judaism. Due to questions, this group of Jewish descent, have officially converted to Judaism and are called Jews.

On the otherside, the Pashtun of Afghanistan and Pakistan claim to be children of Israel (Bani Israel), practice Islam. They are Muslims, and they say they are not Jews. They are strongly prejudiced against the Jewish nation.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Israel, and the head Rabbis recognized the Beta Israel as Jewish, and as Jews, gave them the right to return. So they moved to Israel as Jews, with the right to return. Therefore, they accepted being Jewish.

The B'nai Menashe were forcibly converted to Christianity, and had contacted Israeli Rabbis to learn Judaism. Due to questions, this group of Jewish descent, have officially converted to Judaism and are called Jews.

On the otherside, the Pashtun of Afghanistan and Pakistan claim to be children of Israel (Bani Israel), practice Islam. They are Muslims, and they say they are not Jews. They are strongly prejudiced against the Jewish nation.

This is not what they called themselves and if they were already descendants of the House of Israel, why conversion to be called "Jewish"?? Conversion = New Identity

Note what you say above about the Ethiopian group... they accepted being Jewish... how do you "accept" if you "already are", as you keep stating in your posts???

And the Bene Menashe, converts = New Identity.

Perhaps it is because the Pashtun come from the Northern Kingdom of tribes (among them "sons of Joseph") that they refuse to be called "Jewish". Does this mean they are Two House, too???

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Israel, and the head Rabbis recognized the Beta Israel as Jewish, and as Jews, gave them the right to return. So they moved to Israel as Jews, with the right to return. Therefore, they accepted being Jewish.

Quite something that Beta Israel did not have the right to return as long as they called themselves Beta Israel.

 

[Qnts2]

Quite something that Beta Israel did not have the right to return as long as they called themselves Beta Israel.

How silly and insulting. You just don't understand Jewish people or Israel, so you insist on saying the worst things about the Jewish people, based on your own faulty assumptions.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

How silly and insulting. You just don't understand Jewish people or Israel, so you insist on saying the worst things about the Jewish people, based on your own faulty assumptions.

How is it that you think I "insist on saying the worst things about the Jewish people"??

What are these horrible things I've been saying??

 

[ContraMundum]

In short, Pat, Staley is just not a good teacher to listen to. What's gonna happen to you if per chance it turns out that you are not part of Ephraim? Not a whole lot good according to his interpretation of the scriptures.

Staley's theology is detestable, shallow, sensationalist, heretical, dishonest, unstudied, loaded with bad lingiustic information and really about making Christians panic over impending moral doom and giving them a false answer. He doctrine ultimately is anti-semitic at the end of it all.

He is sorted out and shown to be a fake here.

 

[yedida]

Staley's theology is detestable, shallow, sensationalist, heretical, dishonest, unstudied, loaded with bad lingiustic information and really about making Christians panic over impending moral doom and giving them a false answer. He doctrine ultimately is anti-semitic at the end of it all.

He is sorted out and shown to be a fake here.

Contra, I KNOW Staley's no good!! That's what I've been arguing this whole thread!

 

[ContraMundum]

Contra, I KNOW Staley's no good!! That's what I've been arguing this whole thread!

I was backing you up!

 

[mishkan]

Staley's theology is detestable, shallow, sensationalist, heretical, dishonest, unstudied, loaded with bad lingiustic information and really about making Christians panic over impending moral doom and giving them a false answer. He doctrine ultimately is anti-semitic at the end of it all.

He is sorted out and shown to be a fake here.

That is a fine review, to be sure.

I participate in several Facebook groups that identify themselves as "Messianic", but are actually populated by Hebrew Roots Gentiles who are completely ignorant of anything either Messianic or Jewish. I cannot tell you how many times this video has been passed along as "a wonderful teaching on who we really are!" Worse, every conversation eventually comes around to, "Gentile means 'out of covenant." I get sick of the manipulation and deceit. Staley is one of the most popular of the HR teachers, and this "Identity Crisis" video lies at the root of the lies, it seems.

I have now reviewed this video three times, twice with someone else next to me, so I could gauge their responses, as well. Every time, something new has popped out at me as off-the-wall, erroneous, and plain old anti-Semitic.

I was going to write my own critique, but Derek beat me to it. His article isn't quite as in-depth as I was going for, but his is done, and I'm only halfway through the video this time around.

 

[ContraMundum]

That is a fine review, to be sure.

I participate in several Facebook groups that identify themselves as "Messianic", but are actually populated by Hebrew Roots Gentiles who are completely ignorant of anything either Messianic or Jewish. I cannot tell you how many times this video has been passed along as "a wonderful teaching on who we really are!" Worse, every conversation eventually comes around to, "Gentile means 'out of covenant." I get sick of the manipulation and deceit. Staley is one of the most popular of the HR teachers, and this "Identity Crisis" video lies at the root of the lies, it seems.

I had a person send me a DVD copy of the video because I was Jewish and they thought I would be interested. I informed them after viewing it that I was insulted and disturbed. They now attend my congregation- "for the win" (as the kids say nowadays).

I have now reviewed this video three times, twice with someone else next to me, so I could gauge their responses, as well. Every time, something new has popped out at me as off-the-wall, erroneous, and plain old anti-Semitic.

I was going to write my own critique, but Derek beat me to it. His article isn't quite as in-depth as I was going for, but his is done, and I'm only halfway through the video this time around.

I think you should do an in-depth one! I would read it!

 

[yedida]

I was backing you up!

Well, alright then!!

 

[yedida]

That is a fine review, to be sure.

I participate in several Facebook groups that identify themselves as "Messianic", but are actually populated by Hebrew Roots Gentiles who are completely ignorant of anything either Messianic or Jewish. I cannot tell you how many times this video has been passed along as "a wonderful teaching on who we really are!" Worse, every conversation eventually comes around to, "Gentile means 'out of covenant." I get sick of the manipulation and deceit. Staley is one of the most popular of the HR teachers, and this "Identity Crisis" video lies at the root of the lies, it seems.

I have now reviewed this video three times, twice with someone else next to me, so I could gauge their responses, as well. Every time, something new has popped out at me as off-the-wall, erroneous, and plain old anti-Semitic.

I was going to write my own critique, but Derek beat me to it. His article isn't quite as in-depth as I was going for, but his is done, and I'm only halfway through the video this time around.

3 Times? I could barely make myself keep watching once! Write the review!

 

[pat34lee]

Staley's theology is detestable, shallow, sensationalist, heretical, dishonest, unstudied, loaded with bad lingiustic information and really about making Christians panic over impending moral doom and giving them a false answer. He doctrine ultimately is anti-semitic at the end of it all.

He is sorted out and shown to be a fake here.

While I agree on a few of the points made there, as with arguments here, most of the arguments against him are either taking his words out of context or twisting and adding on to what he says so that it means something else.

I was going to make my own list, but I think we covered most of the arguments he posed on this thread, and they don't hold.

 

[mishkan]

3 Times? I could barely make myself keep watching once! Write the review!

LOL! OK... I'm not throwing away my notes.

Actually, his style of presentation, making extensive use of Powerpoint slides, makes it easy to follow his outline, and analyze the arguments.

Also, Derek makes a good point regarding how the guy plays an audience. Whether conscious or unconscious, I can't say, but he plays the crowd like a fiddle. He is as manipulative as they come.

 

[macher]

I had a person send me a DVD copy of the video because I was Jewish and they thought I would be interested. I informed them after viewing it that I was insulted and disturbed. They now attend my congregation- "for the win" (as the kids say nowadays).



I think you should do an in-depth one! I would read it!

I would read it too. As a Jewish believer Staley is anti-semetic with a twist.