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Gnarwhal

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Interesting, is it possible (probable even) that the Holy Spirit uses these types of faith communities to call some (to use your words) to the "higher forms of the faith"?

Oh, absolutely. I think the evangelical paradigm catered to one or two generations but I think we're seeing the burnout now. Some of the older generations no longer find it compelling, and the younger ones hardly ever did to begin with. This is a catalyst for inquiry into more traditional Christianity, a better understanding of said tradition and generally an embrace of the ancient faith, the faith that has always been around and—in America—had been eclipsed momentarily by inferior praxis.
 
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simonthezealot

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Certainly, one does not need icons to worship God, but they do enhance and focus that worship.:)

All too often in reformed protestant Churches, the emphasis seems to be one of a theology of personal glory, rather than a theology of the Cross: "I" accepted Christ; "I" was born again etc... Likewise, stages with bands and choirs make it more of a performance than a Church service, particularly in some of the charismatic Churches. At least with an Altar, one has a point of focus. I have frequently seen also in Non Denominational Churches/charismatic Baptist and Pentecostals in my town that they tend to be "personality cults"; when a preacher retires or leaves, there is also an ex-migration from that Church to one of the others that act similarly. When a bunch arrive at another Church, some of that Churches membership get's their noses out of joint and they move. Same thing happens when a new preacher arrives; a bunch of new members arrive too; a bunch of old ones leave.

I also have seen many situations where these Christians are less than humble because they can keep the legalism imposed by their Church better than other outside, and even others within their Congregation.

In my mind, these are forms of idolatry; "I must feel good"; "I must be entertained"; "I don't like what that Pastor is telling us"; "I could never listen to another Pastor"; I am most righteous.

I, I, I, I, I; me, me, me. It's about self, so the individual often becomes their own idol; and is more central than our Lord Jesus Christ!:preach:
Broadbrush much? sheesh, 1st NO reformed church teaches
"i accepted Christ" theology
2nd reformed churches are the only monergistic (God did it all) teaching churches there are, so for you to suggest it to be "about self" or "i must feel good" or "i am most righteous" shows you have NO clue what a reformed protestant church is...

Before you foolishly rip on who a church worships God you should study to show you know what your talking about.
 
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simonthezealot

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SNIP> Hence the mass exodus of evangelicals to higher forms of the faith like Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, et al.

LOL mass exodus? Have you seen the numbers in the Lutheran churches over the last decade?

"higher form of worship? (how about a less scriptural, automaton form of worship?) how offensive.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Broadbrush much? sheesh, 1st NO reformed church teaches
"i accepted Christ" theology
2nd reformed churches are the only monergistic (God did it all) teaching churches there are, so for you to suggest it to be "about self" or "i must feel good" or "i am most righteous" shows you have NO clue what a reformed protestant church is...

Before you foolishly rip on who a church worships God you should study to show you know what your talking about.

I call em as I see em... You have no idea how many times I've been asked "Have you accepted Jesus"; I have been told all too many times that since I have never had a conversion experience, I'm not saved; have you never heard the self centred testimonials, or Churches where you must "testify" how one accepts Christ (my wife came from one of those, the Salvation Army). Legalism, ordinances that one must follow to be "saved"... I could go on.

Before you talk about monergism, Read the Lutheran Confessions; we taught it long before reformed protestantism as we know it even existed.

LOL mass exodus? Have you seen the numbers in the Lutheran churches over the last decade?

"higher form of worship? (how about a less scriptural, automaton form of worship?) how offensive.

Disagree all you want, but Liturgical Churches use lectionairys, which give them a very systematic form of Bible Study from creation to the end times each year; few reformed protestant Churches do that.

Liturgical worship provides for much more congregational participation in worship and praise.

I also think it burns you that Cogent agreed with me.

If you are content with your Church, great!

I could never be content with it, so be glad that I don't go there.;)
 
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Tzaousios

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LOL mass exodus? Have you seen the numbers in the Lutheran churches over the last decade?

Which Lutheran churches? It appears you are painting with the same broad brush you accused Mark of using. How appropriate.

simonthezealot said:
"higher form of worship? (how about a less scriptural, automaton form of worship?) how offensive.

Your pejorative here is rather offensive. Why is it less Scriptural, because it does not place the "pastor" and his ego front-and-center in the worship service?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Which Lutheran churches? It appears you are painting with the same broad brush you accused Mark of using. How appropriate.



Your pejorative here is rather offensive. Why is it less Scriptural, because it does not place the "pastor" and his ego front-and-center in the worship service?


Thanks Tzaousios; I confess I took the bait and got drawn off topic... It was Icons I think:D:p.

The point I was trying to make before this derailment is the same one that you make in the last part of this post is that those who only see statues and pictures as idols but miss other idols that people set before them selves such as wealth, popularity, new house, car etc. pride, gluttony and the rest of the 7 deadly sins are missing the point about idolatry.
 
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Gnarwhal

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LOL mass exodus? Have you seen the numbers in the Lutheran churches over the last decade?

"higher form of worship? (how about a less scriptural, automaton form of worship?) how offensive.

Like Mark, I call it like I see it. I've grown up in evangelicalism, I've seen and experienced it's shallowness. So be offended if you like, but I'm referring to exactly what I and many others I've spoken with have experienced.

Mike Horton and Kim Riddlebarger discussed this very issue about a year ago.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Liturgical Churches use lectionairys, which give them a very systematic form of Bible Study from creation to the end times each year; few reformed protestant Churches do that.
It is interesting to consider the ways the lectionairys and singing harmonize with the imagery that one sees when it comes to the worship experience being all-inclusive. Sadly, many assume in various Protestant churches that there was no focus or sharing of scripture present because the Sermon was not the central focus of what goes on within a fellowship - and yet not realizing how the goal is a full body experience and that singing is a way to convey scripture with ALL involved learning it rather than one person conveying it.

There was an excellent article elsewhere on the issue - as seen here:

 
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Gxg (G²)

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Certainly, one does not need icons to worship God, but they do enhance and focus that worship.:)
What you said reminded me of an experience I was able to have in October of 2011 with one Orthodox parish - known as Saint Mary Coptic Orthodox Church of Atlanta. In my studies on Orthodoxy over the years, the Copts have always been one group that has fascinated me amongst others.

Having previous relationship/connection with them (as my priest had interacted the priest of that parish), we were invited to come again. My friends/familyWe got there earlier than the service began, so we sat in the sanctuary pews for prayer..awaiting till others got in. We were able to see what happened with the leaders practicing--and it was cool to see how it was mainly youths/children who were assisting with the songs. We later met with the priests who came in/greeted us...and I was very glad that they were warm people. The songs then commenced later on...and it was a bit difficult to keep up since it seemed that they went through many of the prayers/liturgy so quickly. Though we had assistance thankfully...and others helped us by showing us where in the prayer books we were to read. They also had things up on the screen---and they changed the service where the songs were sung in both English and Arabic/Egyptian.

The icons were truly stunning to behold - the prayers and the priests walking around with the incense was truly amazing--and I was so amazed at how much I felt the Spirit of God present when we were in prayer/worship. I've always found it amazing to see how Orthodox Worship is very much akin to what happened in the OT when it came to the temple/tabernacle and using physical actions and equipment to symbolize worship before the Lord---as in many churches, worship is reduced to how many songs one sings rather than seeing it as an interactive experience with all of one's senses.

I was very thankful to have done research prior to going

many Protestants or others who'd go and immediately think there was no precedence for what they were doing in their interactive worship format. But that'd be foolish since the Orthodox liturgy is in many ways a living continuity with the worship of Judaism (temple and synagogue) and the Early Church. Historically, early Christians preserved a continuity of worship from the Old Covenant to the New, employing elements from the Jewish Temple liturgy, the synagogue liturgy and the rituals of the Jewish home.

On that note, there are thankfully other places that have done good discussion on the ways liturgical circles actually reflect Jewish culture better than most...and for some good ones to go to:

And as one of my Messianic brothers said best on the ways Orthodoxy connects with Judaic practices:
Originally Posted by Philothei
Are the practices of modern times Messianic Jews and Judaism different that those of the Orthodox Jews? Also why is it different to kiss the Shema (Mezzuzah) or the Torah or an icon or the Cross? :doh:

Why do Jewish Temples have "symbols" then?:confused:
http://www.mazaltovpages.com/HTM_jewelry/jewelry.htm
http://www.mazaltovpages.com/HTM_ros...ll_rscards.htm
God bless,
Philothei
Originally Posted by ContraMundum

Thanks for bringing this up...

I'll make a couple of corrections, in humilty, just to try to help.



Jews don't kiss the Shema, we pray the Shema. It's the name of a prayer. "Shema" is the first word in the prayer "Hear oh Israel, Adonai is our God, Adonai is One" when prayed in Hebrew.

We kiss the Mezuzah, the Torah, our Tallit (prayer shawl), and other things. We have on an individual level more ritual than any Christian, except perhaps a Priest in an Orthodox liturgy. For example, at Pesach, we have over three hours of ritual to get through, touching on such things as which way to lean when we eat, how quickly to eat certain courses, what questions are asked and so forth. We also have many, many customs about a myriad of other things.

Also, when one reads the Talmud regarding the Temple services, there is so much ritual and artwork in the place that the mind is both boggled and fascinated. What's more, there is found a huge amount of things the priests did in the Temple that is still done by priests from the Apostolic traditions to this day.

Furthermore, the modern-day "Messianic" Jews are not necessarily Jews. They are largely Gentiles who want to be like the Jews. True converted Jews have never elected those modern Protestant-ized denominations to speak for us and although there are Jews within those congregations, a lot of us are involved in Apostolic Christianity- for the obvious reasons that ancient Christianity is more like Temple era Judaism than a pentecostal church with lots of Jewish symbols.
Moving on...



After all of the prayers/liturgy were done, the priest came and shared his message---specifically, on Titus 3 and other scriptures discussing how Christians are to be peaceable/bless everyone since we're "children of the light." I wish I had written it all down--but it was very challenging.

One of the most powerful things he did was talk about how we live our lives today is to be in light of eternity since we're just passing through---and then he pointed to an Icon of Christ on top of the entrance to the sanctuary. It was a portait of the Lord in His resurrected state and returning in glory. When the priest was speaking, he noted how everyone was to look at the icon and remember that they were to leave the church and enter the world outside in the rememberance of their belonging to Christ---and that He would carry them through. More was said besides that--but that alone floored me...as well as his speaking on what it meant to respond differently as a Christian when the world chooses to fight back if wronged.

After the sermon was done, we had some very excellent time of fellowship with the people. I was very glad I was able to talk with the priest and have some wonderful discussion with him and find out more on some of the questions I had. Some things I learned from him was how iconagraphy in their church was something done because Egyptians at one point didn't have the written Word/Scriptures---and thus, pictures were needed to illustrate what the Bible said. It was cool to see since the ways I'd often seen iconagraphy was in the sense of reminders of what scripture notes and as an expression of worship---but I never saw it as something done for practical purposes of helping others learn when there no other outlets.

Coptic Icons have a very specific style of Coptic art that is used universally within the churches and involves others deliberately making them to look unrealistic and out of proportion... to some extent “cartoony” so as to differentiate the icons from idols and making sure nobody worships it or prays to the imagery directly.​


Coptic artwork is truly stunning....and as an artist, I'd love to learn how to master the skill in doing such unto the Lord.


It's more than just pictures in a building - as it's about changing the atmosphere to make what happens on Earth appear like what's occurring in Heaven.

If I could make a book (or at least find one in existence) of the artistic design in many of the Coptic Orthodox churches--as well as Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Christian Iconagraphy in general--I'd buy it quickly.

So appreciative of the reality of what many within Orthodoxy understand (and those outside as well with the same mindset) when it comes to seeing how much art is apart of ministry unto the Lord - no more different than what occurred in the OT with artistic designs as a representation of the Heavenlies ( Exodus 26:1-3, Exodus 35:34-35, Exodus 31:1-10 , Exodus 36:7-9, Exodus 39:26-28, etc ). I wish more were aware of the sheer importance of Iconagraphy when it comes to worshipping Christ - but so many downplay what Iconagraphy symbolizes whenever it seems that the focus is upon the saints gathering together and worshipping predominately in song or the ministry of the Word/Scriptures and Sacraments.

For some excellent places one can go for review as it concerns Coptic Iconagraphy and Coptic artwork :


For those that find Orthodox Icons beautiful---and especially Coptic Icons---they'll always be ready to face things...whereas those who don't appreciate it will find a way to demonize it somehow:cool: But beauty is beauty - and thankful for other Coptic Icons made available to enhance the worship experience of others :):clap:.​




Some of my favorites:

top.jpg


Icon.ChristTheSavior.gif

Coptic-Icons%20(2).jpg


copticpainting13.jpg

ContemporaryCopticIcons.jpg

The%252520last%252520supper.jpg


StMarySCopticOrthodoxChurch.jpg

coptic_last_supper.jpg

Last%20Supper.jpg

22182094.jpg
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It should be noted that we even use Christ in our depictions of the Burning Bush and the Holy Spirit, as in the dove at Christ's baptism. Although it is sometimes seen, I am told it is not appropriate to have the dove on its own.

BurningBush.jpg
One of the most powerful depictions ever in what it was meant to convey with who Christ was when it came to the Burning Bush being symbolic of Theophany - the Lord coming down in physical form to engage His people, just as the Messiah came later on to do the same on a grander scale when beginning deliverance for humanity out of slavery to sin - just as Moses was led to start deliverance for the Hebrews from bondage to Egypt's worldly system.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Oh, absolutely. I think the evangelical paradigm catered to one or two generations but I think we're seeing the burnout now. Some of the older generations no longer find it compelling, and the younger ones hardly ever did to begin with. This is a catalyst for inquiry into more traditional Christianity, a better understanding of said tradition and generally an embrace of the ancient faith, the faith that has always been around and—in America—had been eclipsed momentarily by inferior praxis.

LOL mass exodus? Have you seen the numbers in the Lutheran churches over the last decade?

"higher form of worship? (how about a less scriptural, automaton form of worship?) how offensive.

I call em as I see em... You have no idea how many times I've been asked "Have you accepted Jesus"; I have been told all too many times that since I have never had a conversion experience, I'm not saved; have you never heard the self centred testimonials, or Churches where you must "testify" how one accepts Christ (my wife came from one of those, the Salvation Army). Legalism, ordinances that one must follow to be "saved"... I could go on.

Before you talk about monergism, Read the Lutheran Confessions; we taught it long before reformed protestantism as we know it even existed.
"snip"

I also think it burns you that Cogent agreed with me.

If you are content with your Church, great!

I could never be content with it, so be glad that I don't go there.;)

This article seems to be saying the same thing: Young Evangelicals Are Getting High « THE CHRISTIAN PUNDIT

Young Christians are going over to Catholicism and high Anglicanism/Lutheranism in droves, despite growing up in low Protestant churches that told them about Jesus.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Gxg (G²);63600310 said:
One of the most powerful depictions ever in what it was meant to convey with who Christ was when it came to the Burning Bush being symbolic of Theophany - the Lord coming down in physical form to engage His people, just as the Messiah came later on to do the same on a grander scale when beginning deliverance for humanity out of slavery to sin - just as Moses was led to start deliverance for the Hebrews from bondage to Egypt's worldly system.

Thanks for sharing both the words and the Icons!:thumbsup::)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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It is not the icon that should be our vision of worship but Christ. :) Icons to me are just a carnal way of doing things. Giving the carnal mind something to look upon.

...And they keep the "carnal" minds focused on "spiritual things":thumbsup::)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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How so? For a carnal man cannot know the things of God.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Better than looking out the window wishing they were golfing. It's also somewhat difficult to lust after the cute girl in the short-shorts you saw on the way to Church, when front and centre, there is a depiction of Christ on the Cross.

That is how so.:preach:
 
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Better than looking out the window wishing they were golfing. It's also somewhat difficult to lust after the cute girl in the short-shorts you saw on the way to Church, when front and centre, there is a depiction of Christ on the Cross.

That is how so.:preach:
It may draw your attention away from golfing. But lust is a heart problem. Your eyes see a pretty girl and your heart lusts after her. This is a problem only Christ can deliver one from.
 
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T

Thekla

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It is not the icon that should be our vision of worship but Christ. :) Icons to me are just a carnal way of doing things. Giving the carnal mind something to look upon.

God created us with eyes - and said that creation was "good", not carnal.
It is not the physical world that is carnal, but the disposition toward it that can be carnal or not.
After all, Christ came in the flesh (and both the Scriptures and icons testify to this). Do we deny Christ because He took on flesh ... or do we worship Him and give thanks for His coming to free us.

We can use our eyes to read the Scriptures, or to look at other physical things that nourish our spiritual life and disposition.

Looking at icons is not carnal, no more than reading the Scriptures - both direct us to Christ, if we will have this.

And both acknowledge that God created us as a whole - both body and spirit - just as He willed to do.
 
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God created us with eyes - and said that creation was "good", not carnal.
It is not the physical world that is carnal, but the disposition toward it that can be carnal or not.
After all, Christ came in the flesh (and both the Scriptures and icons testify to this). Do we deny Christ because He took on flesh ... or do we worship Him and give thanks for His coming to free us.

We can use our eyes to read the Scriptures, or to look at other physical things that nourish our spiritual life and disposition.

Looking at icons is not carnal, no more than reading the Scriptures - both direct us to Christ, if we will have this.

And both acknowledge that God created us as a whole - both body and spirit - just as He willed to do.
Yes God did create Adam with eyes.. Problem is not the eyes but the sin that seperated us from God. Now we have to have spiritual eyes to see Christ and His words in scripture. We also have to have spiritual ears to hear. Looking at icons is a carnal way of keeping images in your head. Scripture on the other hand we read with our eyes but we see and hear with the Spiritual eyes and ears.
 
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