============================================
.....continued
originally posted by anatolian
I normally don't like copying a large block of text, but I think that I have to do this to open your eyes. You are in denial at the specifics that the Bible gives for Abraham's life. It would be good to read the entire passages, but at least read the highlighted parts (
red). I put everything in chronological order according to chapter and verse.
Gen 11:31
And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife;
and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
Gen 11:32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.
Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him:
and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
Gen 12:5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran;
and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
Gen 12:6
And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
Gen 12:7
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Gen 12:8
And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
Gen 12:9
And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.
Gen 12:10 And there was a famine in the land: and
Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.
Gen 12:11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:
Gen 12:12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.
Gen 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Gen 12:14 And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.
Gen 12:15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.
Gen 12:16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.
Gen 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
Gen 12:18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?
Gen 12:19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
Gen 12:20 And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.
Gen 13:1
And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the south.
Gen 13:2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
Gen 13:3
And he went on his journeys from the south even to Bethel, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Hai;
Gen 13:4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD.
Gen 13:12
Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.
Gen 13:14
And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
Gen 13:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Gen 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Gen 13:17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.
Gen 13:18
Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.
Gen 14:12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
Gen 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told
Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
Gen 14:14
And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
Gen 14:15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them,
and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
Gen 14:16
And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
Gen 15:7 And he said unto him,
I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
Gen 15:18
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
From the above construction of chronological events of Abraham, we can see that he was given a specific promise by God to go to a particular land (Canaan) and inherit a specific piece of land in Canaan that would become the land of his seed according to the promise. That land of course is ancient Israel.
All of the geography I included rules out Mecca or any land below Israel or should I say Canaan. It is historically shown that Canaan is not a part of lower Arabia--not even close. Also pay attention to the number of times that Abraham created places of worship to God by building altars. Note also that these places were given descriptions in terms of general locations that placed them far away from Mecca. But the main reason that I mentioned this is because if Abraham actually traveled to Mecca,
we would also expect that that particular place would also have been identified as a place of reverence and worship in the same manner that these places are mentioned in these passages. Also notice the last passage that I quoted that shows the land that God chose for Abraham to inherit. If you look on an ancient Biblical map, you will see that this is the area that was known as ancient Israel. On the north, its border is the Euphrates river and on the far south, its border the the River of Egypt. I think that all of this detail is far better than a single statement from the Qu'ran that does not give any detail; rather, it just declares something as if it is fact. There is no substantiation for your assertion based upon the Qu'uran unless you discredit the primary source, the Bible. You can't leave out the Bible just because you don't believe it. That is definitely a scholarly bias on your part considering that it is a primary source of information. The discussion is not whether you believe the primary source, but based upon known information given from that primary source of Abraham's life. Since we have no earlier source of Abraham than what is within the Bible, we are left to use this source as the means of discussing this topic. Any other commentary would be seen as adding content that cannot be substantiated by normal means. The last thing that we would want to do is to start over speculating and conjecturing.
Here is some information on Ishmael.
Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto
Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and
she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
Gen 21:15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.
Gen 21:16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.
Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
Gen 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
Gen 21:20 And God was with the lad; and
he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Gen 21:21
And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
We know from this passage that Hagar and Ishmael wandered in the wilderness of Beerhseba, which is south of Jerusalem as they ran out of water. The Islamic claim is that this well that they found was near Mecca. The wilderness of Paran is southwest of Beersheeba in the direction of upper Egypt. That makes sense in verse 21 when it says that Hagar gave to Ishmael an Egyptian wife. Since upper Egypt borders Israel. This Paran is not the Paran of lower Arabia.
By now, I hope that you will have more to say than "so". It is so because it shows that Abraham's priority was to obey God's guidance and settle the land that he was given by God as an inheritance for him and his offspring, which included the nation of Israel. Most of his activities are centered around this piece of inherited land that we know as ancient Israel.
What's the other source of them? Josephus?
I wasn't about to mention him. I am talking about all of their recorded history.
Where does the Qu'ran outline Abraham's travel that would help us to understand the Islamic POV?
Baqara 125,126,127,128,129:"And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves. And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination. And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing.Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise."
So where is the detail that outlines his life that would help you substantiate this? Can you trace his travel as I did with the Bible?
then mine is more rational because yours is "it is because it is".When did I accept only Bible as the primary source for Abraham? Quran is exactly the primary source of mine before Bible for every matter.
-humblemuslim
It is certainly enough. Absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence. Feel free to dismiss it, I don't care, I know what I read.
