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Ibrahim stoned the Devil?

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anatolian

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originally posted by anatolian

Since the Bible is the primary source for Abraham, then my conclusion is solid. Yours isn't because it is based upon "it is possible because it is possible".
Hoho :) then mine is more rational because yours is "it is because it is".When did I accept only Bible as the primary source for Abraham? Quran is exactly the primary source of mine before Bible for every matter.

You are just refusing to take the source and make a logical deduction based upon it.
Yes, I'm trying to make you realize it but I am not able to..

.. then don't just say it is so because it is so.
Actually this is what you do here.



.. If this was true, why don't we find it in Jewish history? Since worship was very important to Jews, they would certainly know of the Kaaba as being a house of worship and having ties to Abraham.
Could you please tell me fisrt what the Jewish history you talk about is? According to the real History Jews didn't write any history until the Babylonian excile let alone the times before Moses.They/you had/have only Torah about Abraham and Torah was revealed to Moses . No need to mention the time difference between them? The Jews at the time of Moses in Egypt were likely worshiping idols beside God because of ignorance let alone knowing where Abraham did travel..



.. Those Jews in Arabia are not seen in Islamic history as having an affinity to the Kaaba.
Those Jews in Arabia went there long long long time after Abraham, Moses, and probably even Jesus. It is understandable they didn't know whether Abraham pligrimaged Kaba but Quraish who were Ishmaelites had the figures of Abraham in Kaba according to written Islamic history. They knew they came from Abraham but forgot that He was a one God worshipper.


.. During Mohammad's time, we do not see the Jews helping him to get access to the Kaaba when the pagans prevented him from doing so. We equally don't see any Jews trying to get access to it for their worship.
Related to the upper one.


.. Biblical accounts as well as historical Jewish sources testify that Abraham was sent to Canaan and that their worship has always centered around Jerusalem. They didn't not go to Mecca or Medina to worship. They have no mention whatsoever of Abraham having a house of worship in a far away land. Only during periods of exile will you find Jews worshiping outside of Israel.
Again those historical Jewish sources.. :) History, peaceful soul, doesn't even recognize the existence of Abraham. The Jewish history which predates Moses you mention should be an interpretation of Torah. I would be pleased if you prove me wrong.


.. Biblical geography places Abraham's travel to areas restricted between Mesopotamia and the Babylonian empire with the exception of his travel to upper Egypt.
Does it really say upper Egypt ? Some one who can travel all those lands can go to Mecca to build Kaba with his son Ishmael and pligrimage at it. How long can it take? At least it is likely in Bible that Abraham and Ishmael didn't lose their relationship since it's written Ishamel too went to bury his father. :)


.. God sent him to a specific land to settle and live in. That land is where God's covenant people, Jews, would eventually settle in. That land is Israel.
So?


.. Remember that all of their history is not based upon the Bible; so, the Bible can't be used to claim corruption.
What's the other source of them? Josephus?



Where does the Qu'ran outline Abraham's travel that would help us to understand the Islamic POV?

Baqara 125,126,127,128,129:"And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves. And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination. And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing.Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise."
 
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Rascaduanok

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As long as a person is sincere in prayer, it is not important how the prayer is performed. You seem to be under the notion that the standard form of prayer is a requirement, yet it is not mentioned in the Qur'an the way it is performed by many muslims around the world. It is their choice to follow the standard.
Qur’ân–aloner much?
 
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peaceful soul

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originally posted by anatolian

Hoho :) then mine is more rational because yours is "it is because it is".When did I accept only Bible as the primary source for Abraham? Quran is exactly the primary source of mine before Bible for every matter.
Normally when someone uses this term, they are referring to the earliest information on the subject of discussion. It is not based upon what source that you believe in, which is what you are defining it to be. The first and only source for Abraham that was most current with the events of his life are contained within the Bible. The Qu'ran makes a counter claim of sorts, but does not become a primary source since it is predated by other sources which are more contemporary to the subject in question.

Yes, I'm trying to make you realize it but I am not able to..
But that is not using honest approach to scholarship. Would you want me to apply this to the Qu'ran?

Actually this is what you do here.
Nothing but hot air. I have taken the time to give an elaborate apology to my material with sound backing. You and other Muslims have not offered much but the fact that it is possible when confronted with Biblical information. You say this to avoid admitting that the information is a logical reason why there was no Abraham in Mecca.

Could you please tell me fisrt what the Jewish history you talk about is?
I am talking about general history of Israel and Jews. I am not talking about a specific source. There is nothing that I know of that they recorded or knew of by external sources that would support your claim.

According to the real History Jews didn't write any history until the Babylonian excile let alone the times before Moses.
What do you mean by real history? I think that you are trying to create some doubt into what Jews knew and/or understood. If written history is accurate, it wouldn't matter when it was written. A lot of history was passed on by oral traditions; so, you can't use that as defense. At some point, they wrote down what they knew.

They/you had/have only Torah about Abraham and Torah was revealed to Moses .
That is not a good argument. Moses wrote what God gave him. If you want to dispute that God gave it to him, then that is another issue altogether.

No need to mention the time difference between them? The Jews at the time of Moses in Egypt were likely worshiping idols beside God because of ignorance let alone knowing where Abraham did travel..
We don't need your poor commentary. You are just saying things to appear authoritative. Not convincing. I am sure that Arabs weren't ignorant of Mohammad's misinformation about Christians and Jews either. The fact is that I have presented you with a mound of evidence that you are reluctant to acknowledge because it it contrary to your beliefs. What other reason do you offer for you confrontation? The content that I have provided is very specific and unambiguous. There is no reason to avoid evaluating it.

Those Jews in Arabia went there long long long time after Abraham, Moses, and probably even Jesus. It is understandable they didn't know whether Abraham pligrimaged Kaba but Quraish who were Ishmaelites had the figures of Abraham in Kaba according to written Islamic history.
We don't know when the earliest time that Jews went to that area. I am talking about Jews in general. If they use the same Torah as the Jews elsewhere, it wouldn't make a difference, would it? They would still be familiar with their heritage. Jews do, however, know of Abraham and would have known about their being a worship place in Mecca, for example. There is no information that links Ishmael and Abraham as journeying together, let alone apart to Mecca. We do see that Abraham left Hagar and Ishmael on a journey that led them to the wilderness of Paran (south of Bethel and east of upper Egypt). Since God continually reminded them of their heritage in the Bible, it is more unlikely of that detail being left out. This would have been a big deal. But what I am really arguing on this particular reply is that your other claims when added together with this one don't add up.

They knew they came from Abraham but forgot that He was a one God worshipper.
Another poor attempt at commentary. Speculation is only as good as the information that supports it. So far, you don't have much to use.

Related to the upper one.
My assertion still stands. There is no sign of the Jews in that area appealing to the Kaaba as a house of worship. There is no heritage associated with this in Jewish history or any history external to them. When you read the Bible, you see that temples, altars, and other places of worship of significance are mentioned. Worship is a big deal in the Bible.

Again those historical Jewish sources.. :) History, peaceful soul, doesn't even recognize the existence of Abraham. The Jewish history which predates Moses you mention should be an interpretation of Torah. I would be pleased if you prove me wrong.
There is Jewish history that recognizes him as well as ancient history that recognizes many aspects of the Jews. The fact is that the people associated with Abraham have information about him. They were the ones who were his progeny. That is what matters in this discussion.

Does it really say upper Egypt ? Some one who can travel all those lands can go to Mecca to build Kaba with his son Ishmael and pligrimage at it.
No, it doesn't say upper Egypt. I made a mistake that I see will lead to confusion. In some places I typed an upper case U which refers to the part of Egypt west of the Nile river. I meant upper as a general direction which implies the northern portion. I am referring to the northern part of Egypt which includes the Sinai Peninsula. A better way to explain it is to say the northern part of Egypt. Now that have I cleared that up, let's continue. The Sinai Peninsula is the part of Egypt that borders with Israel and secondly, it is the only way to travel between both places directly by land. I made a point to mention it so that you don't try to make an argument that he went down to the southern end of Egypt where he would be closer to Mecca. No, it was upper Egypt because that is the closest part of Egypt to Canaan according to Biblical geography. Sinai Peninsula, Egypt is surrounded by water on its east side except at the upper part bordering Canaan. It is most logical to cross by land rather than by boat when Abraham went there. The part of Canaan where Abraham was given the promised land later came to be known as ancient Israel, which is basically the same land that Israel occupies today.

How long can it take?
Since we know that he traveled from Mesopotamia to Canaan and was told to settle there in keeping with the Covenant, it really is unrealistic to think that he would violate the covenant by dwelling in a land that God didn't promise him and his progeny. Wouldn't you agree? God specifically told him to settle in a certain place, which is nowhere near Mecca. The location can be pinpointed to Israel. If you want to add up mileage, He first would have to go from Ur (Mesopotamia near the Tigris and Euphrates rivers) to Haran (southwest of Ur) to Canaan (more specifically israel) and then to upper Egypt to avoid famine and then back to Israel. Remember that he also left Israel to go and rescue Lot from Sodom and returned home (Israel). After all of that, you want to claim that he went all the way down to Mecca, given that God told him where to go and settle. There is no account of Abraham going in that direction; so, I think that you are clinging onto hope despite the information that has been presented to you.

At least it is likely in Bible that Abraham and Ishmael didn't lose their relationship since it's written Ishamel too went to bury his father. :)


Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;
Gen 25:10 The field which Abraham purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.


Ishamel settled not far from where Abraham left him and Hagar. The more important question is where is Machpelah? Is it close to Medina or Mecca?

When Hagar and Ishmael were sent on their journey, they only traveled a short distance before they ran out of water in the wilderness know as Paran, which is just southeast of Bethel (in Canaan). I will show you later that they were in close proximity to Abraham.

Since you mentioned this, you have brought up another problem with your Islamic POV. Abraham's offspring through his second wife/concubine, Keturah, settled in lands near to Israel. That doesn't help your position at all. That makes an even stronger case for my claim. This strengthens my point of Abraham being in upper Arabia where Israel is located.

to be continued..............
 
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peaceful soul

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============================================
.....continued

originally posted by anatolian


I normally don't like copying a large block of text, but I think that I have to do this to open your eyes. You are in denial at the specifics that the Bible gives for Abraham's life. It would be good to read the entire passages, but at least read the highlighted parts (red). I put everything in chronological order according to chapter and verse.

Gen 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
Gen 11:32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
Gen 12:5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
Gen 12:6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Gen 12:8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
Gen 12:9 And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.
Gen 12:10 And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.
Gen 12:11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:
Gen 12:12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.
Gen 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Gen 12:14 And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.
Gen 12:15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.
Gen 12:16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.
Gen 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
Gen 12:18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?
Gen 12:19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
Gen 12:20 And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.

Gen 13:1 And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the south.
Gen 13:2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
Gen 13:3 And he went on his journeys from the south even to Bethel, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Hai;
Gen 13:4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD.

Gen 13:12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.

Gen 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Gen 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Gen 13:17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.
Gen 13:18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.

Gen 14:12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
Gen 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
Gen 14:14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
Gen 14:15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
Gen 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

Gen 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

From the above construction of chronological events of Abraham, we can see that he was given a specific promise by God to go to a particular land (Canaan) and inherit a specific piece of land in Canaan that would become the land of his seed according to the promise. That land of course is ancient Israel.

All of the geography I included rules out Mecca or any land below Israel or should I say Canaan. It is historically shown that Canaan is not a part of lower Arabia--not even close. Also pay attention to the number of times that Abraham created places of worship to God by building altars. Note also that these places were given descriptions in terms of general locations that placed them far away from Mecca. But the main reason that I mentioned this is because if Abraham actually traveled to Mecca, we would also expect that that particular place would also have been identified as a place of reverence and worship in the same manner that these places are mentioned in these passages. Also notice the last passage that I quoted that shows the land that God chose for Abraham to inherit. If you look on an ancient Biblical map, you will see that this is the area that was known as ancient Israel. On the north, its border is the Euphrates river and on the far south, its border the the River of Egypt. I think that all of this detail is far better than a single statement from the Qu'ran that does not give any detail; rather, it just declares something as if it is fact. There is no substantiation for your assertion based upon the Qu'uran unless you discredit the primary source, the Bible. You can't leave out the Bible just because you don't believe it. That is definitely a scholarly bias on your part considering that it is a primary source of information. The discussion is not whether you believe the primary source, but based upon known information given from that primary source of Abraham's life. Since we have no earlier source of Abraham than what is within the Bible, we are left to use this source as the means of discussing this topic. Any other commentary would be seen as adding content that cannot be substantiated by normal means. The last thing that we would want to do is to start over speculating and conjecturing.

Here is some information on Ishmael.

Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
Gen 21:15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.
Gen 21:16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.
Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
Gen 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
Gen 21:20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Gen 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

We know from this passage that Hagar and Ishmael wandered in the wilderness of Beerhseba, which is south of Jerusalem as they ran out of water. The Islamic claim is that this well that they found was near Mecca. The wilderness of Paran is southwest of Beersheeba in the direction of upper Egypt. That makes sense in verse 21 when it says that Hagar gave to Ishmael an Egyptian wife. Since upper Egypt borders Israel. This Paran is not the Paran of lower Arabia.

By now, I hope that you will have more to say than "so". It is so because it shows that Abraham's priority was to obey God's guidance and settle the land that he was given by God as an inheritance for him and his offspring, which included the nation of Israel. Most of his activities are centered around this piece of inherited land that we know as ancient Israel.

What's the other source of them? Josephus?
I wasn't about to mention him. I am talking about all of their recorded history.

Where does the Qu'ran outline Abraham's travel that would help us to understand the Islamic POV?

Baqara 125,126,127,128,129:"And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves. And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination. And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing.Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise."
So where is the detail that outlines his life that would help you substantiate this? Can you trace his travel as I did with the Bible?
 
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Beckyy25

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As long as a person is sincere in prayer, it is not important how the prayer is performed.

Then why all these rules regarding prayer? I know all the things you have to do and say before and during the prayer. It takes you a lot of time to learn everything.

You seem to be under the notion that the standard form of prayer is a requirement,

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh on this one ^_^
Actually, it is a requirement! For example you can't just prostrate whenever you want, you have to follow specific rules while praying, otherwise it is said that your prayer is not accepted!

yet it is not mentioned in the Qur'an the way it is performed by many muslims around the world.

That is true, the Qur'an presents a very vague explanation of the actual way of prayer the Muslims are performing.

So, you want us to believe that Abraham travelled to Mecca just because the Qur'an says so, but the Qur'an is not able to provide the required info one needs to perform the 5 daily prayers? Why should we believe a book which does not provide it's followers with the minimum of required info?

It is their choice to follow the standard.

What is the standard? Muhammad's practices, the Sunnah?

************
As we've seen so far in this thread, the Qur'an doesn't even mention the stoning, but still Muslims are doing this during Hajj.
It seems you are doing many things not written in the Qur'an, and justify your actions saying Muhammad did so.

Well, I'd like to ask the Muslims here, if possible, to provide us with the ahadith that talk about the stoning mentioned in the OP.
 
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humblemuslim

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Beckyy25,

The Qur'an gives enough information on prayer. God does not care the method of prayer, but the sincerity as I have already stated. Anyone who says otherwise says so by their own desires. There is nothing wrong with the standard prayer, as long as the prayer is sincere. But if someone argues "Oh the prayer is robotic! Mindless! Unsincere!" they argue a moot point. If a muslim honestly felt the standard prayer was not the sincere way they wanted to pray to God, they have the freedom to choose otherwise for themselves.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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I found this website : http://www.stripes.com/

And searched all the articles dating back to January of 2007 and turned up empty handed, more than I should have done honestly. It seems I am on a wild goose hunt.

It appears you are a man of speculation, generalization, and lies.

You failure to find the mentioned article is not my issue. I have no reason to lie about what I read in the paper.

You claim statistical proof on many of your comments, and have none. Claiming to have evidence you do not have only weakens your point of view further 95% of the time (And yes I made that number up just like you seem to making yours up :p).

Only difference is that I am not an immature individual as you portray. I have argued the 26% number that I have seen and surely believe. You can't find it to verify is not my problem. Google it for all I care. It appears that all is a joke for you.

Also 87% of statistics agree with my views and not yours (Wow...This is fun. I am proving my stance with fake statistics. Far easier than finding real ones!). Bluff called again it seems. Maybe you can be so kind as to give me more specifics. A link maybe?

Let me know when you are done goofing around.
It should not be surprising to you that I see you arguing the majority, let us just talk a look at what you have said:

If I am a very small fraction, that makes everyone else...The majority?

As usual, you are beating around the bush with off-context quotations. Why do you worry about the numbers? Proving anyone that extremist Islam is a minority, as your point of view argues, makes the problem disappear?

No where did you deny the majority claim you have been making. Now you flip flop your position when you are backed into a corner?


I am not flip-flopping anything. You certainly lack the ability to keep a point straight. You are quoting me off context, you are assuming things I have not said, responding to things I did not mean. I argued the context of American Muslims, for some odd reason, without suggesting, you put that number in context with global muslims and then argued that it is a small number. I guess in your flawed logic, extremism only exists among American Muslims... Why do you insist on writing the rules of the game? Because I am not playing your game. Next time, don't bother me with your pathetic attempts to make your point, follow my argument and stay in context.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Beckyy25,

The Qur'an gives enough information on prayer.

Oh yea? Show me the 5 times rule in the Quran? Does it tell you should pray 5 times a day, or you bring off context verses together to make the argument that there is 5 times praying in the Quran? Only 3 contact prayers are mentioned in the Quran. Excluding the made up bargaining with Allah story of Muhammad, reducing the number from 40 to 5.

God does not care the method of prayer, but the sincerity as I have already stated.

Then why do you follow the sunnah?

Anyone who says otherwise says so by their own desires. There is nothing wrong with the standard prayer, as long as the prayer is sincere. But if someone argues "Oh the prayer is robotic! Mindless! Unsincere!" they argue a moot point. If a muslim honestly felt the standard prayer was not the sincere way they wanted to pray to God, they have the freedom to choose otherwise for themselves.

Oh tell that to people in Saudi Arabia... You seem to be reforming your religion without the consent of the clergy.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Sometimes I wonder if I would get more constructive responses to my questions if I did not reveal my religion. Then Christians would not know which religion to attack in response to questions about their faith. :doh:-humblemuslim

About this nonsense... Noone really cares if you do reveal your religion or not. You will, one way or another claim respect and veneration to Muhammad whom we see as a false prophet. It is in our Scriptures. If you consider that Christians are attacking you, then you should not be on this forum, as it is apparent you can't take criticism and can't be apologetic for your religion.
 
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Beckyy25

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Beckyy25,

The Qur'an gives enough information on prayer.

Sure, that's why you need the Sunnah to know how to pray. ;)

God does not care the method of prayer, but the sincerity as I have already stated. Anyone who says otherwise says so by their own desires.

I agree, the sincerity is the most important part in a prayer, that is why we Christians do not have to pray a standard prayer! :)

There is nothing wrong with the standard prayer, as long as the prayer is sincere. But if someone argues "Oh the prayer is robotic! Mindless! Unsincere!" they argue a moot point.

I never said there is something wrong with the standard prayer. The thing is that you get bored after some time, if you have to repeat the same words again and again 5 times a day, and the prayer ends up being robotic.

If a muslim honestly felt the standard prayer was not the sincere way they wanted to pray to God, they have the freedom to choose otherwise for themselves.

^_^ Come on, do you really believe that? Show me a verse from the Qur'an that supports your claim.
 
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Rascaduanok

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Beckyy25,

The Qur'an gives enough information on prayer. God does not care the method of prayer, but the sincerity as I have already stated. Anyone who says otherwise says so by their own desires. There is nothing wrong with the standard prayer, as long as the prayer is sincere. But if someone argues "Oh the prayer is robotic! Mindless! Unsincere!" they argue a moot point. If a muslim honestly felt the standard prayer was not the sincere way they wanted to pray to God, they have the freedom to choose otherwise for themselves.
It’s a nice idea, and definitely one which will go towards reforming the rigid ruleset of Islâm, but it is totally opposed to the spirit of Islâm. In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, I suspect you may follow the Qur’ân alone.
 
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humblemuslim

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Bushmaster,

Burden of Proof Fallacy. Enough games. I am not going to find your proof for you, that is your responsibility if you want to quote specific statistics, which I would suggest you save your time. Your statistics are an Appeal to Popularity Fallacy.

(Burden of Proof)
*You claim very specific statistics without any specific sources provided. Saying you read it in a paper a few months back is not enough.

(Appeal to Popularity)
*If we look past your burden of proof for a moment, you are implying some negative claim against Islam and muslims in general by appealing to an alleged statistic.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html


Bushmaster and Beckyy and Rascaduanok,

Since you are all commenting on the same point I have made, I will provide one response to all.

First and foremost, I am not reforming anything. The Qur'an is my standard. And I have already mentioned that nothing is wrong with the current standard. A reformer would make the claim there is a problem with the current standard. I am stating my belief which originates from the Qur'an, that any sincere prayer is accepted by God.

Qur'an 3:191 said:
Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.

Qur'an 23:1-2 said:
The believers must (eventually) win through,-
Those who humble themselves in their prayers


Qur'an 2:238 said:
Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).

Qur'an 13:15 said:
Whatever beings there are in the heavens and the earth do prostrate themselves to Allah (Acknowledging subjection),- with good-will or in spite of themselves: so do their shadows in the morning and evenings.

Qur'an 2:153 said:
O ye who believe! seek help with patient perseverance and prayer; for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.

Qur'an 30:17-18 said:
So (give) glory to Allah, when ye reach eventide and when ye rise in the morning; Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon and when the day begins to decline.

Does God tell us we must prayer to him in a standard fashion? No. Does God tell us he will not accept our prayers if we do not? No. These are the vain desires of man. In prayer we are to glorify God, submit to God, and humble ourselves.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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(Burden of Proof)
*You claim very specific statistics without any specific sources provided. Saying you read it in a paper a few months back is not enough.

:yawn: It is certainly enough. Absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence. Feel free to dismiss it, I don't care, I know what I read.

you are implying some negative claim against Islam and muslims in general by appealing to an alleged statistic.

I am not implying some negative claim against Islam. Islam is doing that for itself. About a month ago, it proved again in Mumbai. Islam in fact has very extremist intolerant fractions, you may not be a part of it but this doesn't change the violence problem of Islam.


First and foremost, I am not reforming anything. The Qur'an is my standard. And I have already mentioned that nothing is wrong with the current standard. A reformer would make the claim there is a problem with the current standard. I am stating my belief which originates from the Qur'an, that any sincere prayer is accepted by God.

Did you not say that if one feels so, they can pray as they wish? Where is that in the Quran? Where is that in the Sunnah?


Does God tell us we must prayer to him in a standard fashion? No.

Cease the practice that is taught by sunnah then.

Does God tell us he will not accept our prayers if we do not? No. These are the vain desires of man. In prayer we are to glorify God, submit to God, and humble ourselves.


You speak like a Christian, however you have the problem of avoiding certain rules as set by Muhammad.
 
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humblemuslim

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Bushmaster,

Show me in the Qur'an where it says we must prayer a certain way, otherwise God won't acknowledge them. You are again committing the Burden of Proof Fallacy. I have supplied the Qur'an verses on prayer that support my views and you are taking on another view without quoting a single verse.
 
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peaceful soul

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Bushmaster,

Show me in the Qur'an where it says we must prayer a certain way, otherwise God won't acknowledge them. You are again committing the Burden of Proof Fallacy. I have supplied the Qur'an verses on prayer that support my views and you are taking on another view without quoting a single verse.

Even if it doesn't say in the Qur'an, remember that the Qur'ran tells you to follow your prophet; so, you are still obligated to do as your prophet says. There are plenty of Islamic sites and forums that will contradict your sayings.
 
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humblemuslim

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peaceful soul,

peaceful soul said:
Even if it doesn't say in the Qur'an, remember that the Qur'ran tells you to follow your prophet; so, you are still obligated to do as your prophet says. There are plenty of Islamic sites and forums that will contradict your sayings.

First, if you or anyone else is going to say "It is one of your beliefs" or "It is part of Islam" or "It is in the Qur'an" or what have you, please supply what you are referring to, in this case a verse from the Qur'an supporting what you claim. Of course the only reason to skip this step is if I made the claim, in which case I would supply what I am referring to. I have already done that having supplied 6 verses where my belief regarding the acceptance of any sincere prayer is supported.

Secondly, you claim "plenty of Islamic sites and forums that will contradict your saying".

To which I reply:

Qur'an 4:59 said:
O you who believe, you shall obey GOD, and you shall obey the messenger, and those in charge among you. If you dispute in any matter, you shall refer it to GOD and the messenger, if you do believe in GOD and the Last Day. This is better for you, and provides you with the best solution.


Qur'an 6:114 said:
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?* Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

Qur'an 2:256 said:
There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

The Qur'an is the source of law revealed by God, which is where I seek guidance. And there is no compulsion in religion. So although other Muslims may disagree with my stance of Qur'an first, Sunnah second (With Skepticism), we all believe in the major and important points. Additionally, neither of us has any right to force one another to follow or not follow any specific Sunnah. It is a personal choice.

If you want a better understanding of my position read this short article:

http://www.quran-islam.org/232.html
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Bushmaster,

Show me in the Qur'an where it says we must prayer a certain way, otherwise God won't acknowledge them. You are again committing the Burden of Proof Fallacy.

Actually you seem quite ignorant when it comes to quoting that website of your "logical" foundation. The issue at hand is not that I show you if Quran says how you should pray or not. We already established that Quran DOESN'T mark "5-times-a-day" prayer. Your sunnah, prophet's doings established that. And a hadith where he traveled up in the sky to bargain with God, reducing prayer times from 40 to 5. You have praised the 5 times prayer as a means of your humility, therefore introduced the initial claim, I asked you to show me in the Quran which you have not. By which "logical" argument, you are laying the claim back on me? Go and study that website of fallacies a little deeper.

I have supplied the Qur'an verses on prayer that support my views and you are taking on another view without quoting a single verse.


All you did was to give us some vague verses that doesn't talk about 5 times a day prayer and humility. Now where does it say that as a muslim you can abandon the typical sunnah and pray to Allah however you want?
 
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humblemuslim

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Bushmaster,

Bushmaster said:
Actually you seem quite ignorant when it comes to quoting that website of your "logical" foundation. The issue at hand is not that I show you if Quran says how you should pray or not.

This issue has been presented as shown here:

Bushmaster said:
Did you not say that if one feels so, they can pray as they wish? Where is that in the Quran? Where is that in the Sunnah?

You specifically demanded that I show where in the Qur'an it states we can pray in a different manner then the current standard. Yet, the Qur'an never states a standard. So are you denying you made this point? Or are you withdrawing this argument?


Bushmaster said:
We already established that Quran DOESN'T mark "5-times-a-day" prayer.

Qur'an 20:130 said:
Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.

If we count, we have 3 specific times mentioned + 2 "Loose Times" dependent on the when the individual starts and ends their day. That's 5 times. At least this is what many muslims will argue. I however do not agree with this interpretation because Salat is never mentioned in this verse. Here are two source that comment on this specific situation and verse.

When citing verse 20:130 it is said: “…The word used in the passage is ‘Subh” not ‘Salat’ but it is generally accepted to mean ‘Salat’. This, however, is a gross indiscretion as it implies an error on God’s part. Why should He use an inappropriate word when the perfect word for a specific act is available? We should never replace words with those of our own choosing when quoting the Qur’an.
All the ‘reasoning’ based on verses which I have read concerning the timings of Salat are said to ‘infer’ the five Salat but as yet there has been no decisive verification of the five Salat. This is because it is impossible to find what is not in the Quran.
Source : http://members.tripod.com/Signs_Magazines/issue16/time_for_salat.htm


The advocates of the 5 salat say that this verse gives us five times for salat during the day! The obvious manipulation here is that 20:130 speaks about TASBEEH and not about SALAT.
Tasbeeh means glorifying God and we are invited to do this at all times when we are able.
But salat is a specifically structured ritual which contains lots more than glorifying God. When we glorify God we do just that, but when we observe salat, we have to do all the following:
Wudu (ablution), face Mecca (Qibla), glorify God through standing, bowing and prostrating.
But when we are glorifying God (Tasbeeh) we do NOT have to do wudu nor face Mecca ... etc. We can do tasbeeh (glorification) standing, sitting, sleeping ....etc .... we do not have to bow or prostrate to glorify God nor do we have to face Mecca to glorify God.
The conclusion is that Tasbeeh is NOT the same as Salat. Thus the times referred to in 20:130 are NOT times for salat, nor does 20:130 speak of salat
Source : http://www.quran-islam.org/260.html

Although I agree there is no Qur'an backing for the 5 daily prayers, I also see no problem with what they are doing. Just because 5 times is a standard does not mean a muslim can not choose to prayer more or less. Again this issue is a personal choice.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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You specifically demanded that I show where in the Qur'an it states we can pray in a different manner then the current standard. Yet, the Qur'an never states a standard. So are you denying you made this point? Or are you withdrawing this argument?

I am not denying my stance, you are beating around the bush. Why are you NOT following your prophet in the matter of prayer standard? I said that we established Quran doesn't set the standard, so WHO sat the standard that is being followed today due to this gap? Why do you not follow him and how do you justify NOT following him? You are not acknowledging my point and you keep trying to drag the topic to your direction. I told you before that I won't allow you that.

Although I agree there is no Qur'an backing for the 5 daily prayers, I also see no problem with what they are doing. Just because 5 times is a standard does not mean a muslim can not choose to prayer more or less. Again this issue is a personal choice.
Did Muhammad leave you a personal choice in this matter? Yes or no?
 
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humblemuslim

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Bushmaster,

I follow God's revelation. You are the one "beating around the bush". I have addressed every point you have made here with the authority of my beliefs, the Qur'an. You on the other hand have been have not even been making arguments. If you do decide to quote Hadith and Sunnah, it will do little to challenge the authority of the Qur'an. Even if you cite "Islamic Authorities," they are fallible just like all humans on earth. It is unfortunate some muslims rely so heavily on them, because it opens the door for easy arguments against their beliefs. Many of the same arguments I use against the Bible can be used against the Hadith and Sunnah. And it is not any secret, because opposing faiths are quick to jump on them.

If you know Qur'an to refute my beliefs, quote it. You pick at the standard prayer. I state the standard prayer is not a requirement and rather a choice. You pick at the 5 daily standard. I state is not a requirement and rather a choice. So we agree that these beliefs are not in the Qur'an.

What exactly is wrong with prayering 5 times a day? Or more? Nothing. The only valid argument against a standard prayer, is some followers may feel insincere in their prayer. To which I would tell them to then choose a prayer that suits them and that they can be sincere in.

If you want to press the prayer issue, either format or frequency, any further then provide evidence. Just stating your belief is nothing profound. I am fully aware of it, since you have been so kind to state it so many times one time after another.
 
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