Ibrahim stoned the Devil?

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Do you honestly believe all muslims hold these views?

What I believe is not the point, what you, as a large population that follows the religion of the Arab, demonstrate is. Even the recent research data shows a small two digit percentage of extremism around the globe means more than the population of United States. That is enough extremism.

I for one do not. And I am certainly not alone. Let me guess, are you under the impression a majority of muslims are arabs too?

As I am a former muslim and not an arab, your generalization doesn't really mean a lot but an empty argument.

And why should that bother us? More like Biblical opinion, not evidence.

An opinion is a belief and/or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge and/or proof... If you are going to conclude that our Christan history is simply based on opinion, then present a counter argument proving us where Christian theology lacks knowledge... Christian history is not based on opinion but certain significant knowledge and information based on real occurrences, as external and internal sources testify. So grab a hold on reality before making a claim, or back it up.

As if you are not guilty of this as well? Hypocrisy is not an attractive trait (Refer to the quote you made regarding "Death to INSERT" if you are confused what I'm talking about).

I don't set up deadly riots around the globe because a cartoonist mocked Christ. Now clarify what I am guilty of in this topic without distracting it further.

The religion has strong ties with humility.

But it doesn't respect the lives of other human beings who don't necessarily bow to the floor in obedience to Muhammad. What do your strong ties here prove?

Bowing to the floor to honor God's greatness 5 times daily enforces humility, as just a simple example.

Hardly. Bowing 5 times to the floor is a mechanical ritual for those, something that is prescribed for performance to gain God's favor. How do I see humility in there? Actions are louder than words. Those who perform these rituals who don't see their left or right, consider only judgment for those who offend them reveal the core of your "humility".

I live my life by the laws of the Qur'an, where humility and patience are but two important lessons contained within.

Where is your humility here then?

More than likely some of the people who you consider muslim are charlatans or hypocrites claiming to be something they are not. Either that or misguided peoples who have lost touch with what Islam is about and what muslims are to follow. Do not make the mistake of associating these people with Islam. There are several good people who are practcing Islam around the world.

Why is it always that some charlatan or some hypocrite hijacjs your religion? I am sure there are several good people that practice Islam, so there are several good ones that practice Hinduism and Buddhaism, Bahai faith etc. We are measuring the level of goodness in one's heart. Those people are not necessarily good because Islam made them good. You seem to be detached from the reality of Islam in the East.

Easy to abuse? anatolian is just pointing out that God knows more than you, him, myself, and every other human on this planet.

That is correct, then how can you conclude that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God? Based on something fallible, which is recorded by men! It is a fallacy that you follow and your argument is circular at this point.

And I'm sure someone is going to comment on whether the Qur'an is fallible or not. Which would be a moot point, because I can just as easily question the Bible.

No, your argument should defend your position without showing others as an example. Your questioning of the Scriptures would be moot when you are defending the Quran, which only stands on its own. If you can defend Quran by applying your standards to the Scriptures then that argument would not be concrete and moot as well. So what is your argument?

 

[humblemuslim]

As I am a former muslim and not an arab, your generalization doesn't really mean a lot but an empty argument.

You are the one making generalizations. Pointing it out is not an argument. And I was joking Maybe I should go into serious mode while talking with you! Humor can be a healing thing when properly used or damaging when used improperly. But I did not honestly believe you held this belief. You never stated it that I saw of. Maybe you were joking to begin with as well about the "Death to INSERT"? Maybe we should both work on providing better quality humor!

An opinion is a belief and/or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge and/or proof... If you are going to conclude that our Christan history is simply based on opinion, then present a counter argument proving us where Christian theology lacks knowledge... Christian history is not based on opinion but certain significant knowledge and information based on real occurrences, as external and internal sources testify. So grab a hold on reality before making a claim, or back it up.

Arrogance will not give you favor with your Lord God. Claiming that you have such overwhelming proof can only be a sign of arrogance. Even though I believe with all my heart in islam, I would never make such a claim to anyone, because I realize that the knowledge of humanity if greatly lacking, including my own. So we must place our faith in God.

And you know very well there are external references dating before islam that do not agree with the mainstream christian views. Books that did not make it into the Bible. And some that were destroyed as heretic babble. So I remain with my belief that the Bible is an opinion on the matter, not evidence. So we will just have to agree to disagree as I am sure we will have to do on many subjects. The Bible holds no authority over the Qur'an on muslim beliefs no more than the Qur'an holds authority over the Bible on the christian beliefs. To each their own.

I don't set up deadly riots around the globe because a cartoonist mocked Christ. Now clarify what I am guilty of in this topic without distracting it further.

With over 1 Billion muslims worldwide, you are ready to judge us all based on what the few have done, wrongfully for that matter? As I've said before, you are the one running to hasty generalizations.

But it doesn't respect the lives of other human beings who don't necessarily bow to the floor in obedience to Muhammad. What do your strong ties here prove?

Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allâh by committing the major sins) in the land!

And you generalize (Again) muslims do not value human life? The Qur'an says otherwise of the true believers.

Hardly. Bowing 5 times to the floor is a mechanical ritual for those, something that is prescribed for performance to gain God's favor. How do I see humility in there? Actions are louder than words. Those who perform these rituals who don't see their left or right, consider only judgment for those who offend them reveal the core of your "humility".

Bowing is but one tool used in prayer as a sign of humility towards God's greatness. By insulting this tool of prayer you are in fact also insulting the prophets found in the Bible who prostrated to our Lord God themselves.

The actions of true believers should reveal their humility, but if you focus your attention on charlatans and hypocrites then of course you will see Islam much differently then it truly is.

Where is your humility here then?

Present. You do not see me brusting with anger with each pasting post as you and others I have come across insult my faith and religion.

I'm curious when you feel I have exhibited unhumble behavior? I am by no means perfect and accept my errors and strive to correct and repent for them. Quite possibly some of my words have been mistaken for arrogance? Anger? Sometimes I introduce some humor into my responses to break the ice so to speak. These debates become too heated and people say things that pious people should restrain from. Sometimes you need to step back and laugh at yourself for saying such foolish things. I have already taken the time to do so for myself while reading some of my early theological debates from when I was far younger than I am now. I would recommend the same remedy to anyone else suffering from making foolish and arrogant statements. It works like a charm!

Why is it always that some charlatan or some hypocrite hijacjs your religion? I am sure there are several good people that practice Islam, so there are several good ones that practice Hinduism and Buddhaism, Bahai faith etc. We are measuring the level of goodness in one's heart. Those people are not necessarily good because Islam made them good. You seem to be detached from the reality of Islam in the East.

All religions contain their bad eggs. Focusing your attention on them and generalizing an entire group based on them is not going to make the world a better place. Just as you said good people are present in all faiths, but the religion is not necessarily responsible. The same goes for bad people.

The muslims that I have come in contact with from the "East" are mostly good people who do not exhibit the negative characteristics you paint them with. Bad people are everywhere and they cross all national, religious, and any other boundaries you could possibly imagine. Why are you so bent on trying to generalize muslims?

No, your argument should defend your position without showing others as an example. Your questioning of the Scriptures would be moot when you are defending the Quran, which only stands on its own. If you can defend Quran by applying your standards to the Scriptures then that argument would not be concrete and moot as well. So what is your argument?

See. My point is made by your response. The Bible stands to prove itself circularly, so I will use the same logic and use the Qur'an the prove itself circuarly. We get no where. And if an atheist walks in here and says "Both of you prove your Scirptures without circular arguments" then we will both have to honestly back down. If either of us attempted to take on such a challenge we would surely be consumed with arrogance and pride while taking on the impossible. Because the truth of the matter is all proof that either of us has for our religion is either circular or based on faith. Two things that someone basing their opinions on fact and logic will not accept as forms of evidence. If you can provide geniue evidence that doesn't use either circular or faith based arguments, I would be very curious to see it. Although if you believe you have such evidence, it likely is not as solid as you might think it is. The evidence for religion never is. I think we all have been around long enough to realize that.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

You are the one making generalizations.

Statistically, you are representing a very small fraction of muslims in the world. Prove me wrong with numbers. The reality of islamic terrorism doesn't mean I am generalizing.

Pointing it out is not an argument.

It is a very good argument against the practices of your religion's followers and the way they back it up! Your silence and lack of action against them doesn't need a witness on the global platform today.

And I was joking

And I was not.

Maybe I should go into serious mode while talking with you! Humor can be a healing thing when properly used or damaging when used improperly. But I did not honestly believe you held this belief. You never stated it that I saw of. Maybe you were joking to begin with as well about the "Death to INSERT"? Maybe we should both work on providing better quality humor!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXfIYxPGQs

Arrogance will not give you favor with your Lord God. Claiming that you have such overwhelming proof can only be a sign of arrogance. Even though I believe with all my heart in islam, I would never make such a claim to anyone, because I realize that the knowledge of humanity if greatly lacking, including my own. So we must place our faith in God.

It is not arrogance to speak of things that can be verified. We don't follow Christ blindly. If you place your faith in God, then why Islam?

And you know very well there are external references dating before islam that do not agree with the mainstream christian views. Books that did not make it into the Bible. And some that were destroyed as heretic babble. So I remain with my belief that the Bible is an opinion on the matter, not evidence.

Canonization of the Bible is an irrelevant issue at this point, however, the existence of writings that didn't make into the canon of NT doesn't mean those that made it into the canon was based on opinionated decisions. I gave you a definition of opinion and explained to you there is certain Christian knowledge that rules your theory out. Your belief is unfounded, and you don't seem to be interested to find out why...

The Bible holds no authority over the Qur'an on muslim beliefs no more than the Qur'an holds authority over the Bible on the christian beliefs. To each their own.

So basically you can not comment or have knowledge about the beliefs of Christians in regards of God and Savior.

With over 1 Billion muslims worldwide, you are ready to judge us all based on what the few have done, wrongfully for that matter? As I've said before, you are the one running to hasty generalizations.

If that was the true mentality of hiding behind an excuse, then Pope John Paul would never have apologized for the Crusades to the world ... I don't care what fraction out there is "peaceful"... That same fraction is as quiet as they are peaceful and they don't rule out the possibility that they approve the atrocities. 26% American muslims approve suicide bombings. Calculate that over the total number of muslims in the US and you will wake up to the amazing reality. Not once in this thread, I accused you of committing these atrocities, so it seems to me that you are not grasping what I am arguing here.

And you generalize (Again) muslims do not value human life? The Qur'an says otherwise of the true believers.

Are those in middle east FALSE believers? Yes or no?

Bowing is but one tool used in prayer as a sign of humility towards God's greatness. By insulting this tool of prayer you are in fact also insulting the prophets found in the Bible who prostrated to our Lord God themselves.

I don't care about your islamic tool of prayer. I criticized the motions that are done without contrite heart. That has nothing to do with what is in the Bible. You seem to be distracting and spreading the point across.

The actions of true believers should reveal their humility, but if you focus your attention on charlatans and hypocrites then of course you will see Islam much differently then it truly is.

Even if I took your word for it, the charlatans are destroying the world while you are defending the tool they are conveniently using. Then you are blaming me for not paying attention to you. When are you going to pay attention to them?

Present. You do not see me brusting with anger with each pasting post as you and others I have come across insult my faith and religion.

Who said anything about anger? You assumed that. Where is the insult to your religion?

All religions contain their bad eggs. Focusing your attention on them and generalizing an entire group based on them is not going to make the world a better place. Just as you said good people are present in all faiths, but the religion is not necessarily responsible. The same goes for bad people.

Quite frankly, you have shifted topics already. The original argument was of anatolian's erroneous judgment in terms of defining holy men in the Christian context. You have adapted his generalization and applied to me, while my judgment is not erroneous. Sorry I can't trust your good people because you have very bad people. Stop blaming me for it, and do something about it.

Why are you so bent on trying to generalize muslims?

Why are so bent on trying to generalize them as all good and innocent? That is probably why.

See. My point is made by your response. The Bible stands to prove itself circularly, so I will use the same logic and use the Qur'an the prove itself circuarly.

I haven't said such thing. Bible can relatively rely on actual historical sources, Quran can't do that. At least when dealing with Jewish and Christian influence of it.

Although if you believe you have such evidence, it likely is not as solid as you might think it is. The evidence for religion never is. I think we all have been around long enough to realize that.

That is why I am no longer a muslim.

 

[humblemuslim]

Bushmaster,

I have not been able to find any statistics from unbiased sources regarding the violent nature of the followers of Islam. What statistics are you using to paint all muslims with? But I will say this. Look below for a pie chart approximate breakdown of religions of the world.

Notice christians and muslims make up more than half the total. From my point of view if your claim was true the entire world would be in a state of total war. The isolated violence that we see in today's news would be a flea compared to the chaos that would ensue if over a fifth of the world (Majority as you claim of this fifth) are as violent as you paint muslims to be. And you expect me to believe you?

Also you claim I am silent in regards to the evil deeds of others who claim Islam as their banner, yet here I am speaking against their very deeds. But this will never be good enough for you! The only thing you see fitting is if I convert as you have done! Alas, I do good deeds for God, not the for acceptance or praise of humanity.

Additionally no matter how many times you claim overwhelming proof for your religion and claim I am wrong, it makes your point gain no momentum or strength. I compel you to bring further this proof. PM me a link if you'd like. But as a test of your claim I will take the "Proof" and seek out 10 independent people not related to islam or christianity to tell me whether they believe the "Proof" to be as compelling as you profess it to be. I already have some good people in mind. This way I can verify my suspicion that you are filled with arrogance and false pride, although you vigorously claim you embody neither.

And you once again insult your own religion by insulting the "islamic tool of prayer." As long as a person is sincere in prayer, it is not important how the prayer is performed. You seem to be under the notion that the standard form of prayer is a requirement, yet it is not mentioned in the Qur'an the way it is performed by many muslims around the world. It is their choice to follow the standard.

26% American muslims approve suicide bombings. Calculate that over the total number of muslims in the US and you will wake up to the amazing reality.

Where did this statistic come from? There are approximately 4 million muslims living in the USA. Even if what you say is true that brings it to about 1 million muslims out of 1 billion. That is 0.1%? Not that 26% is a majority in the first place, but 0.1% a majority? Obviously we both are going to require more than 0.1% to declare a majority.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us-united-states/rel-religion

I haven't said such thing. Bible can relatively rely on actual historical sources, Quran can't do that. At least when dealing with Jewish and Christian influence of it.

Excellent point. Let us judge whether the Qur'an is correct or not using biased references. Of course all the heretical texts not accepted by the Biblical canon are off limits, because they are not influenced by jews or christians, but some other heretical group. And all the historical texts destoryed by the church, well...we can't use those even if we wanted to, although we would not. Because they do not agree with your point of view, which is competely unacceptable.

 

[anatolian]

So, spare yourself the embarrassment and stop playing games. Either you have a good rational response or you don't. Which is it? Also stop trying to bait and switch us to a different topic so that we forget the original question. Questioning our Biblical IQ does not prevent you from answering the question.

I think I have given my opinion concerning your issue..You say there is no need to believe that Abraham went to Kaba "based on Bible".I say yes you don't have to based on Bible but I say this is "not impossible" again based on Bible-Jesus going to moon is surely a hyperbole beside this-and if God reveals it in Quran-since I claim God does-then you/we don't have right to reject it.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

I have not been able to find any statistics from unbiased sources regarding the violent nature of the followers of Islam.

Say, you have not been able to find a source that would agree with your point of view? All others are biased naturally.

What statistics are you using to paint all muslims with?

By their actions.

Notice christians and muslims make up more than half the total. From my point of view if your claim was true the entire world would be in a state of total war.

Isolated violence? Middle East, Pakistan, Afghanistan, India? Look at the conflicts and turmoils going on in the world right now and tell me how many of those don't involve muslims...

And you expect me to believe you?

I don't expect you to believe anything.

But this will never be good enough for you!

Exactly.

The only thing you see fitting is if I convert as you have done!

You don't know my circumstances so don't even go there. Your conversion means nothing to me.

Additionally no matter how many times you claim overwhelming proof for your religion and claim I am wrong, it makes your point gain no momentum or strength.

Well, evidently, you are unaware of some of the historical aspects of Christianity. I certainly don't need any momentum countering such falsehood and misinformation.

I compel you to bring further this proof. PM me a link if you'd like. But as a test of your claim I will take the "Proof" and seek out 10 independent people not related to islam or christianity to tell me whether they believe the "Proof" to be as compelling as you profess it to be. I already have some good people in mind. This way I can verify my suspicion that you are filled with arrogance and false pride, although you vigorously claim you embody neither.

Whatever game you would like to play. If one is knowledgeable about something, that doesn't mean he is arrogant. I don't necessarily agree with your arguments, and that doesn't make me arrogant. However, my upfront attitude towards you seems like has put you in some kind of defensive position.

And you once again insult your own religion by insulting the "islamic tool of prayer." As long as a person is sincere in prayer, it is not important how the prayer is performed.

So none of your 5 times-a-day bowing to the floor business is required! Christian faith and the practice of prayer in this faith has nothing to do with islamic rituals, friend.

You seem to be under the notion that the standard form of prayer is a requirement, yet it is not mentioned in the Qur'an the way it is performed by many muslims around the world. It is their choice to follow the standard.

Actually, I haven't argued a thing about standards and forms of islamic prayer, you claimed humility by this ritual and I opposed to it as I find it mechanical.

Where did this statistic come from? There are approximately 4 million muslims living in the USA. Even if what you say is true that brings it to about 1 million muslims out of 1 billion. That is 0.1%? Not that 26% is a majority in the first place, but 0.1% a majority? Obviously we both are going to require more than 0.1% to declare a majority.

26% AMERICAN muslims, your kind, under my flag, say that suicide bombings are OK. I don't care about the population ratios to the rest of the world. I have a trouble maker 26% under my own roof.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us-united-states/rel-religion

Excellent point. Let us judge whether the Qur'an is correct or not using biased references.

As you wish.

Of course all the heretical texts not accepted by the Biblical canon are off limits, because they are not influenced by jews or christians, but some other heretical group.

You are only approaching the non-canonical scriptures superficially with much generalization. I never said a thing about their sources and influences.

And all the historical texts destoryed by the church, well...

Unfortunately, not true.

we can't use those even if we wanted to, although we would not. Because they do not agree with your point of view, which is competely unacceptable.

I have no clue what joke are you trying to make ...

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

I think I have given my opinion concerning your issue..You say there is no need to believe that Abraham went to Kaba "based on Bible".I say yes you don't have to based on Bible but I say this is "not impossible" again based on Bible-Jesus going to moon is surely a hyperbole beside this-and if God reveals it in Quran-since I claim God does-then you/we don't have right to reject it.

Throw the Bible and accounts of Abraham of it. The only source we have about Abraham's connection to Kabaa is Quran. Noone said nor proved Quran is of God. I think we have every right to reject it, as it has no substance. You again claim probability.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by anatolian

I think I have given my opinion concerning your issue..You say there is no need to believe that Abraham went to Kaba "based on Bible".I say yes you don't have to based on Bible

Since the Bible is the primary source for Abraham, then my conclusion is solid. Yours isn't because it is based upon "it is possible because it is possible". You are just refusing to take the source and make a logical deduction based upon it. You have not offered any well thought out and text based rebuttal to what I have said. Until you, do, then don't just say it is so because it is so.

but I say this is "not impossible" again based on Bible-Jesus going to moon is surely a hyperbole

I didn't mean it is as hyperbole. I said this to illustrate a flaw in your logic. Evidently it went over your head. The premise that was used is that not everything that Jesus did was recorded in the Bible and that God can do anything. That allows for Jesus to go to the moon. We don't have to use any intellect and search primary sources for Abraham or Jesus to make those statements. See how easy it is. Who can refute such positions? No one because it is not written as to how this was accomplished. All we have is a statement that it happened. I can just imagine that you would allow a Christian to use that same logic on the Qu'ran.

beside this-and if God reveals it in Quran-since I claim God does-then you/we don't have right to reject it.

Actually, you do and so do I if there is evidence that it is not likely. The Bible, the primary source of Abraham and the Jews, shows evidence that this is not true or likely to be true. The center of the OT is Israel/Jerusalem. I took the time to outline some facts from the Bible to help you understand why your POV was not likely. So far, you have only told me that it is true because it is true. Where does the Qu'ran outline Abraham's travel that would help us to understand the Islamic POV?

I asked questions that have not been answered. I will ask some of them again.

1. If this was true, why don't we find it in Jewish history? Since worship was very important to Jews, they would certainly know of the Kaaba as being a house of worship and having ties to Abraham.
2. Those Jews in Arabia are not seen in Islamic history as having an affinity to the Kaaba.
3. During Mohammad's time, we do not see the Jews helping him to get access to the Kaaba when the pagans prevented him from doing so. We equally don't see any Jews trying to get access to it for their worship.
4. Biblical accounts as well as historical Jewish sources testify that Abraham was sent to Canaan and that their worship has always centered around Jerusalem. They didn't not go to Mecca or Medina to worship. They have no mention whatsoever of Abraham having a house of worship in a far away land. Only during periods of exile will you find Jews worshiping outside of Israel.
5. Biblical geography places Abraham's travel to areas restricted between Mesopotamia and the Babylonian empire with the exception of his travel to upper Egypt.
6. God sent him to a specific land to settle and live in. That land is where God's covenant people, Jews, would eventually settle in. That land is Israel.

Please feel free to provide some sources to support your position and don't just say the Qu'ran says so. You can choose to believe what you want, but just at least acknowledge that Jewish history does not agree with your belief. There is no reason to doubt the historical accounts of Israel and Abraham. Remember that all of their history is not based upon the Bible; so, the Bible can't be used to claim corruption.

 

[humblemuslim]

Bushmaster,

I am going to ask you plainly so that you may have a unquestionable opportunity to support your claims rather then word joust with me endlessly.

I said I did not find any unbiased sources of statistics regarding the issue. I then asked you for your source(s) and you attack me instead.

So I will ask again, will you supply your sources for the statistics you are claiming, especially specific figures like "26% American muslims approve suicide bombings".

"By their actions." is not a statistically relevant comment. I think you know that just as well as I do.

And once again 26% is not a majority, even if I were to accept this number as being valid without any sources whatsoever. You continue to paint muslims with your generalizations stating the majority are performing said actions/deeds.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Bethel means house of God, but you need to apply context to Jacob's meaning of Bethel. I suggest that you go and read the passage and then use a Hebrew lexicon to see what definition of house is being spoken of.

When Jews and Muslims mention the House of God, it does not mean that God resides in the Kaaba or other places of worship. That is a metaphor. If Bethel does not mean what I wrote above, explain to me what it means in the Jewish/Islamic context.

Similarities in cultural practices is not an verification of something having the same purpose and meaning between cultures, religions, etc. Once again, we must look at context. That is what determines who did what and why. I am growing tired of you and other Muslims trying to amalgamate Christianity and Judaism when it serves to help you create a bridge with them. Islam is its own separate thing. It lives on its own merits. It can't be propped up by association and similarities to the others two. You are only fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

This is the worst kind of reasoning and rebuttal from what I wrote earlier.

Bushmaster requested that I show him "what islamic practice as taught by Muhammad, could have been practiced and documented in an era that predated Islam!!!". I have shown him from the bible itself and the one lame response from you is that you are "tired" of Muslim reasonings.

Talk about intelligent Christian response.

 

[Islam_mulia]

I asked questions that have not been answered. I will ask some of them again.

1. If this was true, why don't we find it in Jewish history? Since worship was very important to Jews, they would certainly know of the Kaaba as being a house of worship and having ties to Abraham.

Please see my earlier email on the Kaaba and Jewish Mizpah. Ancient Jews did practice the same tradition of congregational prayer and oath taking at specific places. Abraham/Ishmael built the Kaaba for the same reason but for the Ishmaelites. If you say the Tanakh is for the Jews only then I will understand why the Tanakh could not have glorified the Arabs success and the blessings of God.

2. Those Jews in Arabia are not seen in Islamic history as having an affinity to the Kaaba.

Jacob built the Bethel for the Jews. Abraham/Ishmael built the kaaba for the Ishmaelites/Arabs. Why would Jews 'have an affinity' for the Kaaba which was consecrated for the Arabs before the coming of Muhammad (pbuh)?

3. During Mohammad's time, we do not see the Jews helping him to get access to the Kaaba when the pagans prevented him from doing so. We equally don't see any Jews trying to get access to it for their worship.

See point No. 2. Theer is no political or religious mileage for the Jews to help Muhammad (pbuh) other than they were part of the Medina Confederates.

4. Biblical accounts as well as historical Jewish sources testify that Abraham was sent to Canaan and that their worship has always centered around Jerusalem. They didn't not go to Mecca or Medina to worship. They have no mention whatsoever of Abraham having a house of worship in a far away land. Only during periods of exile will you find Jews worshiping outside of Israel.

See point No. 2 again.

5. Biblical geography places Abraham's travel to areas restricted between Mesopotamia and the Babylonian empire with the exception of his travel to upper Egypt.

Ancient biblical geography is shrouded in inconsistencies and errors. I have shown, for example, BASE, a biblical exploration team, reasoned why this is so.

6. God sent him to a specific land to settle and live in. That land is where God's covenant people, Jews, would eventually settle in. That land is Israel.

Abraham travelled quite extensively. That is what you wrote above. The Bible did not say Abraham could not have travelled to Mecca. He did sacrified his son at Moriah. Where is Moriah exactly?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Bushmaster requested that I show him "what islamic practice as taught by Muhammad, could have been practiced and documented in an era that predated Islam!!!". I have shown him from the bible itself and the one lame response from you is that you are "tired" of Muslim reasonings.

Talk about intelligent Christian response.

You have not shown me or him anything from the Bible, you have concluded your position with a possibility based on similarity. First, there is absolutely no evidence of Abraham travelling to Mecca. Where is Moriah? It is one of hills in Jerusalem. You somehow circumvented this difficulty and assumed that they have built something similar to Jacob, namely Mizpah. Let's forget the difficulty that you are, yet again, building an argument using somehow corrupt, tampered Jewish scripture... Your analysis aims to explain, by using Jewish sources, how haj can not be pagan, but unfortunately, you are only showing why hag can not be pagan, not haj. So when peaceful is frustrated with this type of intellectual dishonesty, you should not be surprised.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

[/list]
Please see my earlier email on the Kaaba and Jewish Mizpah. Ancient Jews did practice the same tradition of congregational prayer and oath taking at specific places. Abraham/Ishmael built the Kaaba for the same reason but for the Ishmaelites. If you say the Tanakh is for the Jews only then I will understand why the Tanakh could not have glorified the Arabs success and the blessings of God.

There is nothing saying that Muhammad didn't reproduce this from ancient Jewish tradition. You have not explained that.

Jacob built the Bethel for the Jews. Abraham/Ishmael built the kaaba for the Ishmaelites/Arabs.

Former is testified in the Jewish Scriptures which you consider corrupt. Latter is just a Quranic claim where there is no evidence.

Why would Jews 'have an affinity' for the Kaaba which was consecrated for the Arabs before the coming of Muhammad (pbuh)?

Due to the tradition you claim to have been set by Abraham which they have seen as the father of their generations!

See point No. 2. Theer is no political or religious mileage for the Jews to help Muhammad (pbuh) other than they were part of the Medina Confederates.

How can you relate the place to a Mizpah then?

Ancient biblical geography is shrouded in inconsistencies and errors. I have shown, for example, BASE, a biblical exploration team, reasoned why this is so.

Such minor inconsistencies are revealed and corrected by biblical archaeology.

Where is Moriah exactly?

You tell us!

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Bushmaster,

I am going to ask you plainly so that you may have a unquestionable opportunity to support your claims rather then word joust with me endlessly.

I said I did not find any unbiased sources of statistics regarding the issue. I then asked you for your source(s) and you attack me instead.

Are you a paranoid kid? Every criticism you receive, you receive it as an attack. Enough already. What qualifies a source that is unbiased for you?

So I will ask again, will you supply your sources for the statistics you are claiming, especially specific figures like "26% American muslims approve suicide bombings".

My source is the Stars and Stripes newspaper based on their source AP, published last spring. Feel free to search their website. I have read it while I was deployed to middle east.

"By their actions." is not a statistically relevant comment. I think you know that just as well as I do.

But a comment of far deeper observation. Sorry you choose to close your eyes to the atrocities.

And once again 26% is not a majority, even if I were to accept this number as being valid without any sources whatsoever. You continue to paint muslims with your generalizations stating the majority are performing said actions/deeds.

I never once said majority is performing anything whatsoever. Proper way of carrying an intelligent conversation starts with respecting your opponent, how do you expect me to do that when you assume things and put those things in my mouth? 26% is a major blemish on your record if you haven't woken up to it yet. What are you defending? Your religion's reputation or teachings?

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by Islam_mulia

When Jews and Muslims mention the House of God, it does not mean that God resides in the Kaaba or other places of worship.

That was never part of the discussion brought up by me. Hint: there are over 12 definitions of house in Hebrew. Go find out which one applies to that context that Jacob spoke of. Here is your starting point.

Gen 28:10 And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.
Gen 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.

Gen 28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
Gen 28:17 And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
Gen 28:18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
Gen 28:19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.

The highlighted parts should help you to figure out the meaning.

That is a metaphor.

It is not a metaphor. That is why I asked you to use a Hebrew lexicon and then read the passage for yourself. Then you can understand why you are incorrect. Are you going to read or not?

If Bethel does not mean what I wrote above, explain to me what it means in the Jewish/Islamic context.

There is no Islamic context associated with a Jewish context. Go find out for yourself if you are really interested in knowing. I want you to look at it yourself so you won't have any recourse but to accept that you are incorrect. You have assumed that whatever Jews do in common with Muslims must have a link. That is your premise.

This is the worst kind of reasoning and rebuttal from what I wrote earlier.

This is what I said:

Similarities in cultural practices is not an verification of something having the same purpose and meaning between cultures, religions, etc. Once again, we must look at context. That is what determines who did what and why....

What part of what I said is not good reasoning? Would you care to explain?

Bushmaster requested that I show him "what islamic practice as taught by Muhammad, could have been practiced and documented in an era that predated Islam!!!".

OK. But are they connected? Do they have the same meaning? Were they done for the same reasons? These types of questions delineate whether they are related.

I have shown him from the bible itself and the one lame response from you is that you are "tired" of Muslim reasonings.

Here is what I said:

I am growing tired of you and other Muslims trying to amalgamate Christianity and Judaism when it serves to help you create a bridge with them. Islam is its own separate thing. It lives on its own merits. It can't be propped up by association and similarities to the others two. You are only fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

At least represent correctly what I said. It is your attempt to amalgamate Islam with Jewish/Christian things so that Islam appears authentic because you need to make Islam just another continuation of previous revelation given to Jews and Christians.

You sure don't know how to be respectful towards others, do you? My response is not lame. What is lame is your attitude. What I said is fact. You are one of the worst offenders as you have shown in your last post.

Talk about intelligent Christian response.

I see that you don't have any good manners in discussion. Is this the fruits of your religion? This is probably your way of saying that you can't apply good reasoning or that you plan to offer more distractions as you normally do.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by Islam_mulia

[/list]
Please see my earlier email on the Kaaba and Jewish Mizpah. Ancient Jews did practice the same tradition of congregational prayer and oath taking at specific places.

Was it the same or just looked the same? Can you show that they were done for the same reasons and had the same purpose and then were adapted by Muslims due to this commonality. Is their a link? If not, then there is no evidence for your claim.

Abraham/Ishmael built the Kaaba for the same reason but for the Ishmaelites.

Did Mohammad say this? All Arabs were not Ishmaelites.

If you say the Tanakh is for the Jews only then I will understand why the Tanakh could not have glorified the Arabs success and the blessings of God.

I don't recall saying that. The majority of it centers around Israel, but there were others such as Abraham, Adam, and Noah that are mentioned as well.

Jacob built the Bethel for the Jews.

I want to see if you will agree with this once you look up the context of Bethel and house.

Abraham/Ishmael built the kaaba for the Ishmaelites/Arabs.

Did Mohammad tell you this?

Why would Jews 'have an affinity' for the Kaaba which was consecrated for the Arabs before the coming of Muhammad (pbuh)?

You and other Muslims claim that Abraham helped to rebuild the Kaaba. I would expect Jews to be influenced by the Kaaba consequently. Those Jews that lived near Mecca are not seen as having any relation to this place. Since it was presumed to be connected to Abraham's worship, one would expect Jewish history to make some references to this. Instead there is not one single source in Jewish history or literature outlining this.

See point No. 2. Theer is no political or religious mileage for the Jews to help Muhammad (pbuh) other than they were part of the Medina Confederates.

The issue is why didn't they have an affinity for the Kaaba if it was resurrected by Abraham and he worshiped there. That would be something important to Jews. We don't see them going there to worship even from an Islamic POV.

See point No. 2 again.

Point 2 has no relevance to the Biblical account which does not support you position either geographically or scripturally.

Ancient biblical geography is shrouded in inconsistencies and errors. I have shown, for example, BASE, a biblical exploration team, reasoned why this is so.

But yet you selectively use it to prop your religion with a false sense of being an Abrahamic religion.

Abraham travelled quite extensively. That is what you wrote above.

I didn't say extensively, but that is not a real issue. What you are trying to ignore is the geography involved. Abraham lived in Ur before God called him. Ur is in Mesopotamia and is near to the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. He then traveled southwest to Canaan, which is part of the Babylonian empire. God eventually lead him to what became as Ancient Israel. From there, Abraham went to neighboring Upper Egypt to avoid the famine and drought of his homeland. Except for that, we never see Abraham going outside of the Babylonian empire. When Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael off on their journey, they went south of Bethel to a wilderness area named Paran, which was also part of Ancient Israel. The Bible records that Hagar found Ishmael an Egyption wife, which also supports that both Abraham and Ishmael did not go to Mecca or Medina. Hagar was Egyptian; so, naturally it makes sense that she went back towards her homeland when she left Abraham. The Bible also shows that Ishmael settled in the wilderness of Paran and lived there. That make those assertions made by Mohammad are highly unlikely.

The Bible did not say Abraham could not have travelled to Mecca.

So, that means that he went to mecca? I have already addressed this logical flaw already. The Bible does not say a lot of things, consequently they must have happened, but only to support Islam? Would you apply this same logic to the Qu'ran? Or would you make exceptions? From the only early sources that we have (Bible), there is no reason to conclude a journey to Mecca. If you throw out that information, you can make all kinds of claims, but there wouldn't be an evidence to say one way or another. That still would leave you at 50%.

He did sacrified his son at Moriah. Where is Moriah exactly?

I can only guess that it is near either Mecca or Medina.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Gen 28:10 And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.
Gen 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.

Gen 28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
Gen 28:17 And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
Gen 28:18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
Gen 28:19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.

Jacob built the altar at Beth-el as God commanded him to do so and in performance of his vow. Bethel became a centre of worship for the nation of Israel and his act formed a pattern for later worshipers to follow in the offering of their devotion and their substance to God.


The same for Abraham and Ishmael where God command them to built the Kaaba:

124. And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

125. Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"

127. And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
128. "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

(Quran 2:124-128)

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by Islam_mulia

Jacob built the altar at Beth-el as God commanded him to do so and in performance of his vow. Bethel became a centre of worship for the nation of Israel and his act formed a pattern for later worshipers to follow in the offering of their devotion and their substance to God.

I was hoping that you took my advice and used the lexicon. I didn't ask for you tell me about Bethel. I was trying to lead you to context of the word instead. I don't know if you didn't want to look or you didn't understand what I asked for you.

To be more precise, Jacob built an altar and then named the place Bethel. The problem here is that the house referred to is not a physical house as you would live in or go inside. Bethel as used in this context is "the place of God" That is why you see Jacob keep referring to that place that God spoke to him as a place. Here are the verses again.

Gen 28:10 And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.
Gen 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

Gen 28:17 And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
Gen 28:18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
Gen 28:19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.

Note that Jacob was referring to the place that God spoke to him as the place of God or the house of God since this is the place where God appeared to him. It has nothing to do with a building of worship. House means place in this context. Additionally, there is no sign of Jacob constructing a building for worship. All we see is the few stones that he used to sleep on, which he later used to construct the altar. That is it! No structure like the Kaaba. Do you now understand?

Now let's look in a lexicon to substantiate this.

I typed in house in the search window. The Hebrew word used in the passage is bayith. Then I got the multiple words related to house. I clicked on the one that meant bayith and I obtained the information below. Notice that I highlighted (red) the one that is contextual to the passage.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Home > Lexicons > Hebrew > Bayith[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Strong's Number: 01004[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT] tyb[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]probably from (01129) abbreviated[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Bayith[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TWOT - 241[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]bah'-yith [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Masculine [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
   [*] house
   
   1. house, dwelling habitation
   2. shelter or abode of animals
   3. human bodies (fig.)
   4. of Sheol
   5. of abode of light and darkness
   6. of land of Ephraim
   
   [*] place
   [*] receptacle
   [*] home, house as containing a family
   [*] household, family
   
   1. those belonging to the same household
   2. family of descendants, descendants as organized body
   
   [*] household affairs
   [*] inwards (metaph.)
   [*] (TWOT) temple adv
   [*] on the inside prep
   [*] within[/FONT]

Source: http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/
Direct link: http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01004&version=kjv

The same for Abraham and Ishmael where God command them to built the Kaaba:

124. And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

125. Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"

127. And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
128. "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

(Quran 2:124-128)

All that I can say is that the Qu'ran's meaning of house does not necessarily coincide with the Bible's. That much should be clear by context of what I cited.

Do you have any objections to what I just explained?

 

[peaceful soul]

I thought that I would add some more information concerning Abraham's impossible journey to Mecca. I know that this is a lot of scripture quoting, but I find it necessary to get my point across on this issue. The highlighted portions are most important, but it wouldn't hurt to read the entire text for clarity.

Gen 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
Gen 12:5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
Gen 12:6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Gen 12:8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
Gen 12:9 And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.
Gen 12:10 And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.
Gen 12:11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:
Gen 12:12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.
Gen 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Gen 12:14 And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.
Gen 12:15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.
Gen 12:16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.
Gen 12:17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
Gen 12:18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?
Gen 12:19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
Gen 12:20 And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.

Gen 13:1 And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the south.
Gen 13:2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
Gen 13:3 And he went on his journeys from the south even to Bethel, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Hai;
Gen 13:4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD.
Gen 13:5 And Lot also, which went with Abram, had flocks, and herds, and tents.
Gen 13:6 And the land was not able to bear them, that they might dwell together: for their substance was great, so that they could not dwell together.
Gen 13:7 And there was a strife between the herdmen of Abram's cattle and the herdmen of Lot's cattle: and the Canaanite and the Perizzite dwelled then in the land.
Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.
Gen 13:9 Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left.
Gen 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.
Gen 13:11 Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other.
Gen 13:12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.
Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
Gen 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Gen 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Gen 13:17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.
Gen 13:18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.

This text supports what I have said all along. God lead him to Canaan where he settled down and therefore, didn't go down to Mecca. God promised him a land in Canaan--not in Mecca or anywhere remotely close.

 

[humblemuslim]

Bushmaster,

My source is the Stars and Stripes newspaper based on their source AP, published last spring. Feel free to search their website. I have read it while I was deployed to middle east.

I found this website : http://www.stripes.com/

And searched all the articles dating back to January of 2007 and turned up empty handed, more than I should have done honestly. It seems I am on a wild goose hunt.

It appears you are a man of speculation, generalization, and lies. You claim statistical proof on many of your comments, and have none. Claiming to have evidence you do not have only weakens your point of view further 95% of the time (And yes I made that number up just like you seem to making yours up ). Also 87% of statistics agree with my views and not yours (Wow...This is fun. I am proving my stance with fake statistics. Far easier than finding real ones!). Bluff called again it seems. Maybe you can be so kind as to give me more specifics. A link maybe?

It should not be surprising to you that I see you arguing the majority, let us just talk a look at what you have said:

What I believe is not the point, what you, as a large population that follows the religion of the Arab, demonstrate is. Even the recent research data shows a small two digit percentage of extremism around the globe means more than the population of United States. That is enough extremism.

Statistically, you are representing a very small fraction of muslims in the world. Prove me wrong with numbers. The reality of islamic terrorism doesn't mean I am generalizing.

If I am a very small fraction, that makes everyone else...The majority?

If that was the true mentality of hiding behind an excuse, then Pope John Paul would never have apologized for the Crusades to the world ... I don't care what fraction out there is "peaceful"... That same fraction is as quiet as they are peaceful and they don't rule out the possibility that they approve the atrocities. 26% American muslims approve suicide bombings. Calculate that over the total number of muslims in the US and you will wake up to the amazing reality. Not once in this thread, I accused you of committing these atrocities, so it seems to me that you are not grasping what I am arguing here.

Again you are implying majority if we keep the context of your other comments.

And when I responded to you by saying:

Where did this statistic come from? There are approximately 4 million muslims living in the USA. Even if what you say is true that brings it to about 1 million muslims out of 1 billion. That is 0.1%? Not that 26% is a majority in the first place, but 0.1% a majority? Obviously we both are going to require more than 0.1% to declare a majority.

You said:

26% AMERICAN muslims, your kind, under my flag, say that suicide bombings are OK. I don't care about the population ratios to the rest of the world. I have a trouble maker 26% under my own roof.

No where did you deny the majority claim you have been making. Now you flip flop your position when you are backed into a corner?