I want to see timeline charts.....

Dave L · Jun 25, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Basically agree. But can you just expand were you think Matthew 24 proves it. Thanks.

The AoD fulfilled. The EFFECTS of the people of the prince that shall come destroying the nation and temple as foretold in Matthew 24.

mkgal1 · Jun 25, 2020

Douggg said:
So 445 BC, is when to start adding time to.

Douggg said:
So 32 AD for the cross.

The 7th year of Artaxerxes was 457 BC. not 445 BC.

The seventh year of Artaxerxes I would have run from Tishri 458 to Tishri 457. Ezra would have left on 27 March 457 and arrived on 23 July 457" (Expositor's Bible Commentary, note on verses 7-9).

Beginning at 445 BC and adding the 483 years (69 weeks x 7).... I don't even see how that math adds up?

mkgal1 · Jun 25, 2020

Douggg said:
Your chart, more readable...right click and choose "view image"

Thanks for making that more readable. I'll have to start using Christian Gedge's illustration from now on, because I've come to believe that it's more accurate.

Douggg · Jun 25, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The 7th year of Artaxerxes was 457 BC. not 445 BC.

Beginning at 445 BC and adding the 483 years (69 weeks x 7).... I don't even see how that math adds up?

mkgal1, 445 BC and the 457 BC are a solar calendar system. The 483 years is lunar calendar system. The AD and BC solar calendar system was created under Pope Gregory in the 1500s.

The 483 lunar years in Daniel 9 was of course what the Jews used.

Two different system. The 483 lunar years should not be added directly to either the 445 BC or the 457 BC. The 483 lunar years has to be first converted solar years.

Which 483 lunar years is 476 solar years.

Now with whatever base date a person chooses - whether 445 BC or 457 BC - add 476 years to that, to know on what year Jesus was crucified and how old he would have been.

445 BC going forward 476 solar years is 32 AD that Jesus was crucified. At 32-33 years of age. Okay that sounds good.

457 BC going forward 476 solar years is 19AD that Jesus was crucified. At age 19-20 years of age. Oh, that is way off.

The chart you are using has a flawed way of coming up with the 27 AD, 31 AD. 34 AD - because it mixed calendar systems in it computations.

It added lunar years (483) directly to a solar year calendar system of 457 BC.
_______________________________________

Mixing calendar system would be like mixing currency systems.

For example, if here in the U.S. a person had $10 and were given 5 pesos that would not mean that the person then had $15 dollars.

The pesos has to be first converted to the dollar system. 5 pesos is .22 dollar.

So the person would have $10.22

Christian Gedge · Jun 25, 2020

Douggg said:
mkgal1, okay, you want to get into all kind of complications centered on calendars. Which I don't see any sense for.

...but you can go to this link.
Mathematical Bible Prophecy

- Add 7 + 62 weeks = 69 weeks of years

- Multiply 69 (weeks) x 7 (years) = 483 years (of lunar years, my comment)

- Multiply 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days

To convert the 173,880 days found in this prophecy into our 365.25 day solar years (the .25 adjusts for leap years) ...

173,880 days ÷ 365.25 (days per year) = 476 yrs

Now take the 476 years in this prophecy and simply start counting from March 14, 445 B.C. (when the command to rebuild the city Jerusalem and its wall was given) and you end on the exact year (even the very day) Jesus (Yeshua) rode 'triumphantly' into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday), being praised as King and Messiah by thousands upon thousands of the Jewish people who had gathered from all over for the Passover Holidays. Honored, yet lowly, riding on a donkey - exactly as another prophet, the prophet Zechariah, said He would ...

"Rejoice greatly,

O daughter of Zion (Israel)!

Behold, your King (Messiah)

is coming to you;

He is just and having salvation,

yet He is lowly and riding on a donkey."

(Zechariah 9:9 ... written around 500 B.C.)

Thus, on the 10th day of Nisan ("Palm Sunday") 32 AD ... 476 years after the command was given to rebuild the city and its wall ... Jesus (Yeshua) made His famous "triumphal entry" into Jerusalem, riding on a donkey. It was the only day that He ever allowed Himself to be honored as Messiah or King (Mark 11:1-12) as the people of Israel cried out and sang "Hosanna to the Son of David (this is a Psalm of the Messiah), blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!" from Psalm 118 ... (and all this took place just a few days before He was "executed" exactly as Daniel's prophecy said He would!)
_________________________________________________

I said to early on in this discussion - that I did not want to get into calendar debates. Now you see why. It gets tedious and does not change that the messiah, Jesus, rode into Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah. And 4 days later was cutoff. Why can't we just go with that (in blue), without the calendar issues?

Jesus was not cutoff in the middle of the 70th week.

You probably don’t realise this, but it doesn’t alter the fact that your calculations are the same calculations that the dispensationlists use – the one devised by Sir Robert Anderson - ‘The coming Prince’ published in 1895. These calculations are seriously wrong. They do not follow the lunar calendar as you try to say. They follow a make-believe calendar of 360 days.

That is why I said on a previous post that you should not describe yourself as a non-dispensationlist.

nolidad · Jun 25, 2020

mkgal1 said:
View attachment 279518
There are 3 sets of weeks in Daniel's prophecy - the first 7 weeks (49 years) + the next 3 score and 2 weeks (434 years)....then the final, Messianic week. If there's no gap between the first 7 weeks and the following 62 weeks, why would there be a gap between the 62 weeks and the 70th?

Where can you find any other pause in a prophetic calendar in Scripture?

View attachment 279516

From Genesis to REvelation!!!! All you need do is read it as written! Even you have a gap in your --timeline???

The gospel did not go to the gentiles in 34 AD.
Titus did cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease- but that is supposed to happen in the middle fo the last week (the 70th week)

You use absolutely wrong grammar and you fail to even declare what 7 year covenant Jesus made with Israel! Once again you go to a mystical interpretation of SCripture to make Jesus the prince of the people that shall come and Jesus making some "unknown covenant" with Israel. If it is the gospel then your time line is a lie for Jews are still being saved, Jews are back in the land just as literally prophesied and Israel is preparing to rebuild the Temple as literally prophesied!

nolidad · Jun 25, 2020

Douggg said:
The animal scarifices were not the abomination of desolation.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The abomination of desolation has to be a combination of being setup and standing. i.e. a statue image of the beast in the standing position.

Something like this (my rendition, to convey the idea) ...

View attachment 279477

or like this...

Or it could be like Paul warned in Thess. when the man of sin sits on teh ark of the covenant mercy seat and declares Himself He is God! and maybe the statue the false prophet causes to come alive!

mkgal1 · Jun 25, 2020

nolidad said:
From Genesis to REvelation!!!! All you need do is read it as written! Even you have a gap in your --timeline???

I had asked about a precedent set in Scripture for a gap in time. I don't have a gap - where time stops and is picked up later - the 70 weeks of Daniel is laid out in contiguous sets (the 7 weeks + 3 score & 2 weeks and the final week) but the time continues.

mkgal1 · Jun 25, 2020

nolidad said:
The gospel did not go to the gentiles in 34 AD.

After the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7) the followers of Jesus left Jerusalem because of the great persecution that followed..... except for the apostles (Acts 8:1).

Douggg · Jun 25, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
These calculations are seriously wrong. They do not follow the lunar calendar as you try to say. They follow a make-believe calendar of 360 days.

Who is "they" ?

That is why I said on a previous post that you should not describe yourself as a non-dispensationlist.

It has nothing to do with being a disipensationalist or not. You believe in Jesus; dispensationalists believe in Jesus. Does that make you a dispensationalist?

mkgal1 · Jun 25, 2020

nolidad said:
Titus did cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease- but that is supposed to happen in the middle fo the last week (the 70th week)

Jesus is who caused the cessation of the Yom Kippur sacrifices when the curtain was torn. He was the final Atonement sacrifice. That did occur in the middle of the final week of years..... the period of 27 AD to 34 AD. in 30 AD (I believe).

mkgal1 · Jun 25, 2020

nolidad said:
You use absolutely wrong grammar and you fail to even declare what 7 year covenant Jesus made with Israel!

Jesus didn't *make* a covenant - He confirmed the Davidic covenant (I believe is the specific covenant referred to).

Daniel 9:27 ~ And He will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

nolidad said:
Once again you go to a mystical interpretation of SCripture to make Jesus the prince of the people that shall come and Jesus making some "unknown covenant" with Israel.

The text states "people of the prince" not the other way around (and that changes the grammar).

Christian Gedge · Jun 25, 2020

nolidad said:
You use absolutely wrong grammar and you fail to even declare what 7 year covenant Jesus made with Israel! Once again you go to a mystical interpretation of SCripture to make Jesus the prince of the people that shall come and Jesus making some "unknown covenant" with Israel.

mkgal1 said:
Jesus didn't *make* a covenant - He confirmed the Davidic covenant (I believe is the specific covenant referred to).

Daniel 9:27 ~ And He will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name.” (Romans 15:8-9)

mkgal1 · Jun 25, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name.” (Romans 15:8-9)

Right.

I should maybe clarify and word my post differently. Jesus fulfilled all the promises given to the patriarchs....and was also a mediator of a better covenant as well (one that wasn't mutually exclusive from the eternal promises). There is simultaneously continuity and discontinuity with His ministry:

Hebrews 8:6 ~ Now, however, Jesus has received a much more excellent ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is better and is founded on better promises.

Christian Gedge · Jun 25, 2020

Your post was good. I was basically supporting your use of Daniel 9:27 meaning the 'New covenant' - not some dreamed up treaty with Antichrist as Disps believe.

The 'Davidic covt' however, is the same as the one given to the patriarchs. Actually, the New covenant is older than the Old covenant. "What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise." (Galatians 3:17-19)

solid_core · Jun 25, 2020

nolidad said:
Titus did cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease

The sacrifices are done with. Both technically (the temple was destroyed by Titus) and theologically (explained in the book to Hebrews).

Both since the first century. We can debate if it was personally Titus or whether it was in 66 AD, 70 AD or other details, but generally the truth still stands. It was all completed in the first century.

Douggg · Jun 26, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The 7th year of Artaxerxes was 457 BC. not 445 BC.

There is a decree by Artaxerses in Ezra in his seventh year, in Ezra 7.

And a decree by Artaxeres in Nehemiah in his twentieth year, in Nehemiah 2.

________________________________________________________________

The point being made by them at that link is the decree in Nehemiah was the only one that provided for the rebuilding of the wall (as found in Daniel 9:25).

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Douggg · Jun 26, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
the one devised by Sir Robert Anderson - ‘The coming Prince’ published in 1895. These calculations are seriously wrong. They do not follow the lunar calendar as you try to say. They follow a make-believe calendar of 360 days.

The Jews determined the start of each lunar month by the appearance of the new moon, when the first sliver of the moon becomes visible.

Which lead to some observed months being 29 days long and others 30 days long.

There were 12 months in their year.

To make up the difference of the accumulative disparity with the solar year, an additional month was added to the 12 months, every two to three years.

In Daniel 9, it therefore appears (according to that link) that the 7 groups of 7 (lunar years) and 62 groups of 7 (lunar years) - are approximates of 7 solar years and approximates of 62 solar years.

And the combined 69 groups of 7 (lunar years) is an approximate of 483 solar years.
________________________________________________________

But there is a flaw in that rationale as well. The ancients already had a system of adding the month every two to three years to their calendar to correct for the accumulative disparity with the solar year.

Mathematical Bible Prophecy

In that link's calculation method, they don't recognize the extra correction month had been applied to the lunar system to correct for the disparity of the solar year , and just go by....

- Add 7 + 62 weeks = 69 weeks of years
- Multiply 69 (weeks) x 7 (years) = 483 years
- Multiply 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days

then they say....

To convert the 173,880 days found in this prophecy into our 365.25 day solar years (the .25 adjusts for leap years) ...

173,880 days ÷ 365.25 (days per year) = 476 yrs
______________________________________________________

This is the reason I try to avoid getting into all the calendar arguments. It gets so convoluted.

Why can't we just go by Palms Sunday Jesus arrived in Jerusalem hailed as the messiah, four days later crucified, then on Easter Sunday rose from being dead ? In accordance with the 69 groups of 7 in Daniel 9.

Not 69 1/2 groups of 7, like you guys are claiming, CG.

The last group of 7 is still unfulfilled.

Christian Gedge · Jun 26, 2020

Douggg said:
- Add 7 + 62 weeks = 69 weeks of years
- Multiply 69 (weeks) x 7 (years) = 483 years
- Multiply 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days

then they say....

To convert the 173,880 days found in this prophecy into our 365.25 day solar years (the .25 adjusts for leap years) ...

173,880 days ÷ 365.25 (days per year) = 476 yrs

Straight out of Anderson and Schofields's playbook, but the 360-day year is a figment of their imagination. So, if you want to be a REAL non-dispensationalist, you need to follow real dates. Here they are on post #112 I want to see timeline charts.....

Douggg · Jun 26, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Straight out of Anderson and Schofields's playbook, but the 360-day year is a figment of their imagination. So, if you want to be a REAL non-dispensationalist, you need to follow real dates. Here they are on post #112 I want to see timeline charts.....

CG, your chart misinterprets "unto messiah the prince" as being when Jesus was baptized by John. "unto messiah the prince" - is Palms Sunday. 4 days later cutoff. Then on Easter Sunday rose from being dead.

That means, using your base year, 457 BC + 483 years as AD 26/27, as the year of the cross.

(leaving the last group of 7 still unfulfilled).

Since the common thinking is that Jesus was around 33 years old at the time of his being cutoff, then that would mean Jesus was born 33 years earlier than AD 26/27 i.e. 4-6 BC (on the gregorian calendar).

_________________________________________________________

If 445 BC (the nehemiah, Artaxeres decree) were used as the base year and 483 years later - 38 AD would be the year of the cross. And Jesus born 33 years earlier, 5 AD (on the gregorian calendar).

The bottom line is the greorian calendar was not accurately developed, it appears.

So just go with Palms Sunday arrival of the messiah, 4 days later cutoff, Easter Sunday rose from being dead. meeting the 69 groups of 7 (years). And the remaining 1 group of 7 (years) still unfulfilled.

I want to see timeline charts.....

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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