I want to know the OLD STUFF

[HalaM]

I have lots of questions about the formative years of the Christian church. I'm western, from the US and was taught much of my religious thought by Baptists, then Fundamentalists, and find myself in a relatively liberal mindset.

I also studied Islam, and find that I like the strict Monotheisim. I mean I know that Jesus was and all that but the Fundis worship him like he is a God. I go back to the first commandment. "I am the Lord thy GOD and thou shall have no other Gods before me".

As I read about the Gnostics and the Essenes; how some in the very early church went around murdering people who they thought were heretics. How the Early Catholics began to slander Mary Magdaline; calling her a harlot and degrading women for untold centuries, it makes my heart beat faster.

What's the truth with all this anyhow? Who is right? Is anyone right?

I just want to hear your perspective on all this.

HalaM

 

[127.0.0.1]

I have lots of questions about the formative years of the Christian church. I'm western, from the US and was taught much of my religious thought by Baptists, then Fundamentalists, and find myself in a relatively liberal mindset.

I'm pretty liberal myself.

I mean I know that Jesus was and all that but the Fundis worship him like he is a God.

The Father, Son & Holy Spirit are three-in-one. They are The Trinity. So there's no contradiction. In short, Jesus IS God. Christ is God, He is The Word of God made man, He's fully human and fully God. So there's no contradiction there.

As I read about the Gnostics and the Essenes; how some in the very early church went around murdering people who they thought were heretics. How the Early Catholics began to slander Mary Magdaline; calling her a harlot and degrading women for untold centuries, it makes my heart beat faster.

Mine too (read, I'm a feminist too). I'm a fairly liberal, feminist Orthodox Christian.

What's the truth with all this anyhow? Who is right? Is anyone right?

Of course someone is right. Us! The Orthodox Church is right (yeah I know, you probably hear everyone say that, but see for yourself)! If you would like to learn more about Orthodoxy then feel free to gobble up all the articles on this website.

The St.Nina Quarterly

If you like...pm me & I send you more!


PS
Beware the fundis. They would have you believe that The Holy Spirirt is somehow crippled & totally incapable of adapting itself to the 21st century. *cough* *cough* Old Rite "Old Believers" (not in communion with the other Orthodox Churches (in fact they've pretty much departed from the Orthdox Faith), but a good example of OC fundamentalsim gone bad) *cough* *cough*

 

[HalaM]

OK, I'd really like to know the difference between so called Baptist Christianity and Orthodoxy. Is it something blatant and glaring or is it like the stupid coversation between Calvanisim and Armenisim. To me it is like this big controversy that no one has the answer to.

Like I read this article somewhere that said the idea of the TrInItY wasn't even thought of until about the 6th Century, and then these people were like killing each other over that. I mean how nuts and self defeating can that be?

I mean I've talked to some phosophy and theological students and they say they learn all this history which disputes so much of what we are dogmatic about and then they are like told to forget the whole thing and only tell the dumb masses a certain line. Wow, that is like totally wacked out, doncha think?

Like even the church I go to has this huge commemorative thing about this woman's son hanging over the whole place where the Cross is and where they do all this stuff for communion. Weird huh?

 

[127.0.0.1]

OK, I'd really like to know the difference between so called Baptist Christianity and Orthodoxy. Is it something blatant and glaring or is it like the stupid coversation between Calvanisim and Armenisim. To me it is like this big controversy that no one has the answer to.

Um...there are a lot of BIG differences between Orthodox and protestantism but it can be kind of a mouthful. One difference is that in protestantism, they believe that all you have to do is believe that Jesus is The Son of God and then you're saved (basically you can be as sinful as you want after that...because you're "saved"). In Orthodox, you're conversion is not a one time deal (baptism is though) you have to convert to Orthodoxy every day (you must strive to become more and more Christian everyday). It's like climbing a latter, if you fall, you just get right back on the latter and start climbing again. You don't need to run around and evangelize people (in fact you probably shouldn't) many of our Saints never converted a soul. We don't "save" anybody, only Jesus saves.

Avoid any sort of "holier than thou" mentality and take on a "chief among sinners"(humble) mentality. You will not be saved by you're good works, so don't bother trying to be better than so & so...just be the best you can be.

Like I read this article somewhere that said the idea of the TrInItY wasn't even thought of until about the 6th Century, and then these people were like killing each other over that. I mean how nuts and self defeating can that be?

I don't know why there was any killing. Killing is terrible and I doubt it was ever officially condoned (probably more like vigilantes if you know what I mean, or at least that's my guess).

I mean I've talked to some phosophy and theological students and they say they learn all this history which disputes so much of what we are dogmatic about and then they are like told to forget the whole thing and only tell the dumb masses a certain line. Wow, that is like totally wacked out, doncha think?

Oh...you mean like the time they found the tomb of, James, Brother of the Lord, and they were like, [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] Mary had other kids!!! (btw brother can also mean cousin and no the Theotokos did NOT have any other kids...but they left that part out of the report). The Orthodox Church has many Saints (many of whom participated in the Ecumenicals Councils which helped to solidify the Church's teachings) who are incorupt & you can go & see them even today and venerate their tombs as well as their relics their relics and perhaps even see where they lived among other things.

Like even the church I go to has this huge commemorative thing about this woman's son hanging over the whole place where the Cross is and where they do all this stuff for communion. Weird huh?

Um...not sure what you mean. You mean like an icon of The Theotokos & Christ? Well I would certainly hope so, after all Christ gave us the Orthodox Christian Church.

PS
Gobble up the stuff on The St. Nina Quarterly and I'm sure you'll find LOTS of information to answer many of your questions.

 

[Lukaris]

A good place to read early post apostlolic writings is in the book Early Christian Writings transl by Maxwell Staniforth ed. by Andrew Louth & publ by Penguin books (ISBN 0-14-044475-0). This book is only about 200 pp. Of note in this collection is the Didache (ca. 90 AD) which is an early catechism, the epistles of St. Ignatius (ca. 110 AD) which reflect a stuctured & still emergent church, the epistle of St. Clement of Rome to Corinth (ca. 96 AD). While these can be found online, so much reading can produce eye strain. OTH, an account not found in the previous mentioned book & valuable is the Apology of Aristides (ca. 125 AD) & found at http://earlychristianwritings.com/aristides.html

 

[Barky]

Follow the Church Councils, the first being at the Council of Jerusalem found in the book of Acts. We, as Orthodox Christians (I'm a catechuman, I guess I'm almost there), adhere to the first seven ecumenical councils of the Church.

 

[HalaM]

I think one of the reasons that I am so curious and disillusioned now is that I have sat and listened to Conservative Christian pastors expound for 20 minutes on one sentence of scripture for far too long.

Then up pops things like the "Book of Thomas", and the "Book of Mary". I find out that during the early years, it was "The Church" who went out and slaughtered the Gnostics. In these later years, some Archeologists think that Jesus was a Gnostic.

Then there is this Gamaliel fellow, who apparently lived during the life of Jesus, and Paul. If he taught Paul, then maybe he knew and perhaps even taught Jesus. It seems like all these people knew each other.

It is all very troubling. It almost looks like a relatively small group of people from the hood simply slaughtered him.

Hala

 

[127.0.0.1]

Then up pops things like the "Book of Thomas", and the "Book of Mary". I find out that during the early years, it was "The Church" who went out and slaughtered the Gnostics. In these later years, some Archeologists think that Jesus was a Gnostic.

Then there is this Gamaliel fellow, who apparently lived during the life of Jesus, and Paul. If he taught Paul, then maybe he knew and perhaps even taught Jesus. It seems like all these people knew each other.

It is all very troubling. It almost looks like a relatively small group of people from the hood simply slaughtered him.

Well like I said, murder is a sin, so you're probably looking at folk who took matters into their own hands. As far as those books go, whenever a new book pops up, there can often be a difference between what it says it is, and then what it actually is. In short, you may want to verify your sources as people who are biased against Christianity come up with "new finds" all the time.

 

[Lukaris]

I do not know the sources as to where this bloodshed you are referring to is (I am not doubting you have read some account of this) but incidents of bloodshed may even be nonexistent within the early church. It was Christians who were on the receiving end of this in the early days although at times persecutions ceased also. Trying to not pile on more reading, but you really should read, or read about, or peruse Against the Heresies by St. Ireneaus of Lyons (ca. 180 AD) which refutes virtually all of the existent Gnostic groups & writings of that time purely in a written account & not villify his fellow man but to correct doctrine contrary to the Gospel. His writings can be found on the early Christian writings website link in my previous post. The Gnostics were the original sectarians & some were not nice people. All types of humanity are found in Christian groups as in many religions (some good some bad). Many types of secular ideologies have been far more effiecient in murder than certain falsely practising Christians (for ex. Nazism, Communism, etc.).

 

[127.0.0.1]

Many types of secular ideologies have been far more effiecient in murder than certain falsely practising Christians (for ex. Nazism, Communism, etc.).

Actually the Nazis believed God was on their side. The Nazis believed they had support from Luther & I think they even claimed St. John Chrysostom on their side. They also got backing from the Lutheran church in Germany, I believe.

Also, I have a felling that if the Soviets ever rise again...they'll probably have a Church-State alliance that will make them look Russian Orthodox friendly. But then that's just my opinion.

 

[Philothei]

The church has condemned the gnostic writings...Why do you read those documents? they are not authentic. halam are you here to have a serious discussion or just throw accusations? If you wish to just post all this "made up" claims do not expect us to take you seriously.

The gnostic gospels have many "consiparcy" theory imaginable.. So what?

I know you are a muslim and wish to come here and preach to us agaisnt the dogma of our church and the Fathers. Those gnostics and their writings are the very basis your pseudo-prophet used to disprove Christ's Divinity...and reduce him to a prophet.

Those fathers were defending Orthodoxy. You will not find any archeological evidence that prove to your claims...Christ was not a gnostic. Christ talked very opnely to the Synagogues and never gave "hidden" messages. It says so in the Gospel.

Gnosticism is nothing but false teachings about God through "personal" interpretation and "mystical" traditions that lead ONLY Some to know while others do not.. know.

Gnosticism is based on paganism and what good can come out of it? Just a bunch of unbased theories and imaginations mixed with withcraft.... a truly confused and syncretistic outlook of Christianity...If you do not anything important to ask please do not come here and preach to us...

From your posts you do not ask...you rather tell us what you think Christianity to be....

 

[127.0.0.1]

I know you are a muslim and wish to come here and preach to us agaisnt the dogma of our church and the Fathers.

She's a US Democrat, Lutheran.


And as far as all the gnostic stuff goes, yeah it's totally messed up. Isn't it the gnosts who believe that whole material world is evil? Why would God make something evil? He wouldn't.

 

[Andrew21091]

PS
Beware the fundis. They would have you believe that The Holy Spirirt is somehow crippled & totally incapable of adapting itself to the 21st century. *cough* *cough* Old Rite "Old Believers" (not in communion with the other Orthodox Churches (in fact they've pretty much departed from the Orthdox Faith), but a good example of OC fundamentalsim gone bad) *cough* *cough*

How do you think that Orthodoxy should adapt to the 21st Century?

Also, not all Old Ritualists are in schism with the Church. The ones in Erie are in ROCOR. Old Believers aren't a big problem; I think the real people to look out for are the Old Calendarists.

 

[Protoevangel]

She's a US Democrat, Lutheran.


And as far as all the gnostic stuff goes, yeah it's totally messed up. Isn't it the gnosts who believe that whole material world is evil? Why would God make something evil? He wouldn't.

Her faith icon shows Faith: Other Church.

The Lutherans have their own icon. There is also a Protestant icon and a generic "Christian" icon. Her icon shows that she chooses to be outside of Christianity by choice. Her words do the same.

Honest inquiries will be honored and answered. Perhaps there has been a misunderstanding. A simple response can clear it all up.

 

[Philothei]

She's a US Democrat, Lutheran.


And as far as all the gnostic stuff goes, yeah it's totally messed up. Isn't it the gnosts who believe that whole material world is evil? Why would God make something evil? He wouldn't.

Good Command You are right. The Gnostics are pretty dualistic. One of their heresies gnostism can be many things... though some overlap and some do not it depends... Like the different gnostic gospels they have different emphasis. Dualism is not Orthodox as well as Neo-platonism that teaches it.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Also, not all Old Ritualists are in schism with the Church.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

The ones in Erie are in ROCOR. Old Believers aren't a big problem; I think the real people to look out for are the Old Calendarists.

I've read some wired things about the "old believers". I've read somewhere that they are not to share meals with, unbelievers. I also think their communities are a tad too isolated, which I don't think is very good (though it's interesting that they had earned financial independents from the rest of Russia). Also, to my understanding, "old believers" are Old Calendarists.

Her faith icon shows Faith: Other Church.

On her Public Profile it says, Church: Lutheran.
But there could be a difference between where she goes and what she believes.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Good Command You are right.

Thanks

Dualism is not Orthodox as well as Neo-platonism that teaches it.

Hence why abortion is nothing short of murder. Unfortunately many people don't pick up on this and believe that the body doesn't have a soul until it's taken it's first breath on it's own.

 

[Protoevangel]

But there could be a difference between where she goes and what she believes.

Ya think?

 

[Andrew21091]

I've read some wired things about the "old believers". I've read somewhere that they are not to share meals with, unbelievers.

You will find this true with the Bespopovtsy or priestless Old Believers. They are far more stranger than the ones that have priests. They have rejected the world where the antichrist rules as they say. They preach that the end of the world is near. They believe that any priest or bishop who has accepted the Nikonian Reforms lost Apostolic Succession and are heretics and that the true Church of Christ no longer exists so they reject the priesthood and the sacraments except for Baptism. They will not have contact with people that are part of any other church.

I also think their communities are a tad too isolated, which I don't think is very good (though it's interesting that they had earned financial independents from the rest of Russia).

Well, that is mainly because of persecution from Patriarch Nikon in 1667 when he labeled anyone who didn't follow the reforms were therefore heretics. This resulted in many Old Believers being imprisoned, tortured, or put to death. Because of persecutions, they fled into the wilderness. You can see why they would be weary of outsiders.

Also, to my understanding, "old believers" are Old Calendarists.

While Old Believers (and the rest of Russian Orthodoxy) are on the old calendar, they are not really Old Calendarists. The Old Calendarists are groups that broke away from the Church when the new calendar was introduced and they are also strongly against ecumenism and they believe that anyone who participates in any ecumenical movement is in heresy. Some believe that any church and churches in communion with anyone that uses the new calendar are void of grace. Old Believers differ because they broke away because of the forced reforms of Patriarch Nikon which resulted in violence. The Russian Orthodox Church no longer considers Old Believers to be heretics.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Ya think?

Either way, I'd rather not speculate.

...

Yep, that's pretty much what I read. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. I didn't know some of them rejected the priesthood though! Wow...weird.

btw about the being isolated, I can understand how it started, but in today's world, I think it develops an unhealthy fear.