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Featured I thought I had them at the flood, but...

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by Valetic, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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  2. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/fossil-record/order-in-the-fossil-record/
     
  3. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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  4. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Have you seen the film Is Genesis History? If not, it is a recent, extremely well-done documentary that is well worth your time.

    Here is the cast/the scientists that are interviewed/teach in this film:

    You can rent/buy the film at Amazon or at their website, but I believe it is still free on Netflix. I would put this as a definite in the "must see" category.

    You can check out the film's website here: https://isgenesishistory.com/ (it looks some other films have been added into the mix there, so just to be clear, the one you are looking for right now is the feature film, Is Genesis History?)

    edit: It's not being shown on Netflix any longer, so you'll need to rent/buy it streaming from https://isgenesishistory.com/ or Amazon ($3.99 or $4.99), or just buy the Blu Ray from either place instead.

    Enjoy :)

    --David
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  5. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Speaking as a YEC myself I think you have allowed someone to confuse you.

    Fossils form in sedimentary rock and have done so in a consistent pattern ( with some exceptions) globally. So a global cataclysum involving a flood that drowned all the plants and animals seems a very plausible explanation for these facts.

    Anything that geologists say beyond these basic facts is actually inference.

    The bible tells us that there were some unique and unanalogous qualities to the flood. The water came from above and below. Furthermore it was an act of supernatural judgment. Who can say what the precise mechanics of such a unique event were.

    The geological record provides a sequence of which organisms settled in which layer of flood disrupted sediment. It does not show a sequence explaining ancestry as required by evolution. For instance the fossil precursors of the Cambrian explosion are missing. But the fossil record cannot tell us why that order occurred as it did via a flood either. It might have been the sequence in which animals worldwide were able to survive the flood waters, lack of sunlight and warmth, anoxic or superheated waters and toxicity but any theories on this will be speculative
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  6. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    It is possible to consider both views to be true: http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html?mobile=yes

    http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=211
     
  7. pgp_protector

    pgp_protector Noted strange person

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  8. Kenechi

    Kenechi Believes the Bible. Follows Jesus.

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    Valetic, I was reading this thread and saw ur concern. I then rushed to AiG to get u some info but I think someone already sent you the necessary link. Here it is anyways-- https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/fossil-record/order-in-the-fossil-record/#fn_11
    This's my first day on Christian Forums btw. I'm on Quora, but I needed sumthin more specific
     
  9. Stone-n-Steel

    Stone-n-Steel Active Member Supporter

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    When God created everything there is no reason, He could not have made it appear as if it had been existing. God created the plant kingdom with a seed inside it so it can continue making more plants. I see no reason that He could not make trees with rings and the ground with sub strata. It was a new creation, and not one that was grown as those that deny God would have us believed.
     
  10. gideon123

    gideon123 Humble Servant of God

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    OP

    there is no dilemma ...

    EXCEPT that some time ago someone - a person whom you trusted - told you that there were only 2 alternatives, and you are forced to choose between them ...

    A. Genesis is an exactly literal account
    B. The Bible is a myth

    This depiction is such a small-minded view of the Universe that it is demeaning. And furthermore, it does not give honor to God who is truly majestic.

    I suggest that you pray and open your mind!

    And if you are evaluating geological records, I suggest that you read a good geology textbook from any "Geology 101" class in a major university. But for goodness sake, please ignore individual links on the Internet ... that is just a journey through a refuse heap.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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  11. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. Fossils are one of the strongest supports for Young Earth creation. And there are serious hurdles for those promoting the evolutionary 'geologic column.' Sorry this won;t be more in-depth but I don't have a lot of time for a long answer:

    1. The 'geologic column' is a diagram, not a reality. It isn't found 'complete' as diagrammed anywhere in the world. There are a handful of places where all 'ten' stacks have been assigned/inferred, but even here it is not complete as none of those ten layers is the necessary thickness for the diagrammed column, even when taking erosion into account. For example, the diagram represents about 100-200 miles of rock. But local, real-world formations taken as 'proof' of the column are rarely more than a mile in total. Even the famous 'North Dakota' stack of ten is at most 16 miles. Erosion or any other known way to chip at those sediments just can't explain such a huge gap - this is a giant hurdle for proponents of the geologic 'column'. Furthermore, erosion is one of the worst forms of special-pleading for long-Earth proponents to hold to as in most places around the world there are no signs of erosion between definitive layers (e.g. fossilized soil, wind channels, water channels.)
    northdakota.png


    And 'ten-stacks' are quite rare (less than .4% of the Earth's surface, at most.) Far more common is 1-3 layers. Layers are often found out of order in a way unexplainable by seismic activity, or are found without their 'intermittent' layers. (When there may well be a stack with the missing layer just a few hundred feet away) - that's a mystery for old-Earth proponents and does not support the geologic column hypothesis.

    2. Whoever told you that plants/animals are separated 'correctly' within the layers is misinformed. They often are not. (Plus, for the theory of the geologic column coupled with evolution of the species to be true one would need a near-perfect record, with big deviations having clear explanations as to how they could have occurred.) You may have heard of Index fossils. Why are these particular fossils used to date layers and not others? Because unlike the rest of the fossils which can easily be found in different layers (even straddling two layers, which should be impossible under an Old Earth view unless it's cataclysm driven,) index fossils are 'more commonly' found in the 'expected' locations. But even these are not 100% consistent. For example, flowering plants supposedly evolved ~160 million years ago, but pollen samples are found in Precambrian strata supposedly over 550 million years. And duck fossils, squirrels, bees, platypus, frogs, etc. have been found along with T-Rex fossils. Older fossils can be found in strata above younger ones, or species crossing into strata they are not 'expected' to be in. Sometimes species 'skip' a strata or two as well! [The explanation offered for these many out of place fossils is that they somehow 'slipped' down through solid rock or 'reworked' themselves upwards into the next strata - which doesn't make any geological sense whatsoever.]

    http://evolutionfacts.com/Ev-V2/2evlch17e.htm
    http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/LifeSciences29.html
    http://thecreationclub.com/fossils-out-of-time-and-place-bill-nye-should-be-a-creationist-now/

    3. Fossilized trees are often found straddling several layers. Not only would this be impossible if sediments represented millions of years, but in many cases the rock surrounding these trees shows signs of being rapidly deposited. (Ironically, the standard explanation of this from an 'old-Earth' perspective is that in these cases, the layers formed very quickly, due to some cataclysm like a volcano, flood, sandstorm, etc.; or for upside down fossilized trees that they somehow got caught standing in water, like a swamp or flood.) Which seems to back up the flood view more than the geologic column.

    4. Many creatures still alive today yet dated to 500+ millions of years old (e.g. starfish, jellyfish, brachiopods, clams, and snails) are often 'missing' from the strata they are supposed to be found in or the layer they would have been expected to be found in missing entirely.

    5. In many places strata overlies other strata at an angle. These angled layers at any given point are used to support the idea of a 'column.' Why is this a problem? What is found in the layers changes laterally, not just vertically! Imagine three layers angled over each other like roof tiles which appear to match with geologic layers A, B, and C at point X. But travel along some distance and the same exact strata now hold fossils more corresponding to B, C, and D. That isn't a support for the geologic column at all - it actually is what one would expect to find with sediment layering.

    6. 'Cope's Rule' details how fossils (in general) are found 'larger' as one goes up through the strata. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope's_rule
    There is no basis for this in evolution, nor any reason longer time periods would make fossils bigger as one goes up the strata. This doesn't match with ''living fossils,' many of which are clearly smaller than their ancestors. Rather, this finding matches well with the sorting of water, where smaller organisms would be expected to be deposited first.
     
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  12. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ is not going to judge you on the basis of whether you believed in an old earth or young earth.

    If you really want to know the final exam questions, read Matthew 25.
     
  13. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

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    The so called "geologic column" has never been proven. It is a fabrication...

    I am trying to find the expert that put out a talk on this very subject. I will post it when I find it.
     
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  14. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    I'm no expert, but there was a toy I saw a while back, it was nothing but an ant farm type of flat clear box with water and dirt, and when you shook it up, the dirt all naturally settled in separate layers. That would be a model of a catastrophic event that yields strata that separates materials by type.

    In contrast to that, I have, as part of my job, been tasked with preparing core samples taken from the ocean floor, where gradual deposits really have been occurring since forever, but there were no strata at all. It was all just one great big layer. Yes, there were chemical differences in different parts, depending on the chronology of pollution, but there were no strata in the conventional sense.

    On the matter of fossil dating, it is a fact that members from all phyla are found at the lowest levels, suggesting something other than the gradual development of complex life over time. It is also a fact that the Cambrian explosion suggests the idea of a massive global catastrophe, such as a flood. It is also a fact that marine fossils have been found atop some of the highest mountains. It is also a fact that in order to find an intact fossil, the whole creature had to be buried suddenly, alive or recently deceased, because a decomposed and crumbling organism does not make an intact fossil, which means that the best fossils come from catastrophes. If these fossils are coming from catastrophes, then they are not being deposited gradually over time.

    It is also a fact that there's no such thing as an unbiased scientist. I would add, also, that the method of dating fossils according to strata does not follow the scientific method and is therefore not really science...even if it were accurate and true.
     
  15. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    I appreciate all the responses. I am confident in defending YEC again. I don't have credentials and this is what I believe, but even if it's true or not or whatever my brethren believe is true or not, we can use it with 1 Peter 3:15 and give the bible credit back for what evolution stole.

    People demand answers and by us having tangible evidence to give we can have more room to open peoples minds to the gospel and spread it even further to this generation, that is my hope.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  16. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    Yep

     
  17. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Here's something important:
    It doesn't matter at all to your salvation. You could live your whole life as a YE creationist, or as an OE creationist, or as an evolutionist, and it wouldn't matter, so long as you followed Jesus.

    He doesn't care how long you think it took or how you think He made living things. It matters in science, but it doesn't matter at all to your salvation.
     
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  18. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    I know but I have a passion for apologetics and I just believe if the bible really is God's word then he should have been able to preserve it through and through and that means If there really was a flood than there should be evidence of that flood and I believe it's out there and that's what I'm out to find so when I come in contact with these atheist or evolutionist and they want to ask me questions about biblical Origins I can have an answer and hopefully open their minds to spread the gospel.
     
  19. gideon123

    gideon123 Humble Servant of God

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    "It is also a fact that there's no such thing as an unbiased scientist. "

    sorry. but you are very wrong about that.
    all the professional scientists I know are deeply committed to finding the truth. this means ... tomorrow if they discover that new data contradicts their theory ... then they take their theory and throw it in the trash bin.

    that's a real scientist!!
    and happily the world still has many of them.

    on the other hand ... the 'creationists' on this forum have exactly the opposite behavior. they have already decided that their narrow opinion is correct, and they refuse to change their minds ... even when there is a mountain of evidence against them. they refuse to read scientific textbooks, or read thousands of scientific journal papers. instead, they only read a few opinion pieces written by other creationists ... about 'what science says'.

    that is not truthfulness ...
    that is not integrity ...

    that is believing in falsehoods.

    you are not doing God any favors, if you believe in false things ... and then go out into the world as an ambassador of faith. you are bringing disrepute to the faith that you are carrying as a crown.
     
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  20. MartyF

    MartyF Member

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    Have you seen "Is Genesis History?" on Netflix? There are books as well depending on how much time and money you have.

    First thing you have to realize is that Evolution is not science. Not even close. It fails every test in science.

    Evolution is an alternate creation myth for those who want to deny the God of Abraham. Evolution, just like other creation myths, gives unseen, mysterious forces which can't be proven to explain how we got where we are.

    In Evolution Myth, the unseen, mysterious force is time. Time explains how an ape eventually becomes a human Time explains the Grand Canyon. Time explains the oceans of Oil. Time explains the "geological column". Replace Time with Odin or Zeus or whatever and you can start understanding why Evolution is a myth.

    Russell's Teapot goes both ways. If someone who believes God created the Earth in a short time span has to prove every detail, then Evolution worshippers must do the same. Give a step by step accounting of how an Ape becomes a human and repeat the process to prove that it works.

    Valetic,

    The question is what do you want to believe? Do you want to believe in Jesus and the Old Testament which points to him? Or do you want to believe in something else?

    Marty
     
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