I thought I had them at the flood, but...

[bcbsr]

What about the hundreds of global flood legends found in almost every ancient culture around the world? What about how the sedimentary layering is consistent across the world in typing of sediments and where it is on the column? What about extraordinary findings of certain out of the box fossilized discoveries in strange places like sea shells at the great pyramids of Egypt?

Floods occur around the world. The only global "sedimentary" layer I'm aware of is that due to the asteroid strike 65 million years ago. sea shells in "strange places", like on mountain tops has been explained by the uplifting of the earth due to tectonic plate movement.

See also http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html for the other side of the story.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I'm a young earth creationist since a few months ago but today after doing further research on the geologic column it would appear I have met my match. Creationists have tried to explain how the flood could have separated neatly all the fossils consistently across the world between each layer of the geologic column, but it seems the geologic column actually does support an old earth theory because of this, especially since it separates both plants and animals of the same species correctly within each layer.

I thought I had escaped the science of macro evolution through Noah and the flood but now I am back at square one unsure of the age of the earth and whether the creation story is really just a myth. It's really terrible for me because creationism really strengthened my faith in the bible and I know it doesn't really have anything to do with the gospel of Jesus either but I guess I just got my hopes up.

I guess the only thing I'm still holding on to is that night I believe I met Jesus.

The Lost World of Genesis One
John H. Walton​

He shows that the first "Creation" (Hebrew bara) account in Genesis 1 describes God acting upon pre-existing matter, and imbuing it with God's own Divine Purpose.

Walton shows that "creation" does not mean a "Big Bang", generating matter and space-time. It means "infuse with a Divine organizing purpose". Like God took dust & clay, and formed it into Adam. The dust & clay already existed, but God imbued the atoms & molecules with purpose, organizing them into a lifeform.

The universe and earth pre-existed Genesis 1:1.

 

[devin553344]

I'm a young earth creationist since a few months ago but today after doing further research on the geologic column it would appear I have met my match. Creationists have tried to explain how the flood could have separated neatly all the fossils consistently across the world between each layer of the geologic column, but it seems the geologic column actually does support an old earth theory because of this, especially since it separates both plants and animals of the same species correctly within each layer.

I thought I had escaped the science of macro evolution through Noah and the flood but now I am back at square one unsure of the age of the earth and whether the creation story is really just a myth. It's really terrible for me because creationism really strengthened my faith in the bible and I know it doesn't really have anything to do with the gospel of Jesus either but I guess I just got my hopes up.

I guess the only thing I'm still holding on to is that night I believe I met Jesus.

If you're taking the bible as science fact you will be confused. Jesus only spoke in parables to the wicked, and we are all born into sin. I look at the creation as a parable. Perhaps that will help. remember it was written and passed down when writing was very primitive.

 

[dqhall]

Floods occur around the world. The only global "sedimentary" layer I'm aware of is that due to the asteroid strike 65 million years ago. sea shells in "strange places", like on mountain tops has been explained by the uplifting of the earth due to tectonic plate movement.

See also http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html for the other side of the story.

Once the continents were joined. People looking at maps noticed the coast of South America and the coast of Africa fit together like puzzle pieces. Geologists found similarities between rock formations on both coasts. They theorized the two continents started to break apart about 140 million years ago.
A 20 second YouTube video illustrates this:

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm a young earth creationist since a few months ago but today after doing further research on the geologic column it would appear I have met my match. Creationists have tried to explain how the flood could have separated neatly all the fossils consistently across the world between each layer of the geologic column, but it seems the geologic column actually does support an old earth theory because of this, especially since it separates both plants and animals of the same species correctly within each layer.

I thought I had escaped the science of macro evolution through Noah and the flood but now I am back at square one unsure of the age of the earth and whether the creation story is really just a myth. It's really terrible for me because creationism really strengthened my faith in the bible and I know it doesn't really have anything to do with the gospel of Jesus either but I guess I just got my hopes up.

I guess the only thing I'm still holding on to is that night I believe I met Jesus.

And I believe you met Jesus who I think doesn't really care what you think about the age of the Earth or whether it is flat or spherical or whether Adam and Eve and their family were actual people or a metaphorical/allegorical explanation of why things are as they are or whether every single word of the Bible must be interpreted literally as we in the 21st Century interpret it.

I will be really surprised if when I arrive in Heaven I find that Jesus or any of the heavenly beings care at all about whatever I believe about all of that though our misunderstandings probably provide them with some amusement. . .or distress when we use the Bible to hurt people.

What matters is our relationship with the living Christ and that we do what we can to live in a way that loves and honors Him, loves his Creation and the people and creatures with whom we share our mortal lives.

Having said that, I find the various theories about origins and history and ancient civilizations and the whys of how things are to be fascinating to learn about, discuss, and debate with others who also enjoy that kind of exercise.

 

[Percivale]

The existence of index fossils is actually proof of an old earth--there's no way the flood would sort all of one kind of seashells into one layer then put all of another kind of shells in a higher layer. Creationists who misunderstand the concept of index fossils think it is circular reasoning, but it is not. Only certain kinds of fossil deposits can be dated radiometrically (volcanic deposits). When all of a certain kind of shell that can be dated falls in the same age range, it is logical to assume that when you find the same kind of shell in a layer that can't be dated radiometrically it will be in the same age range.

If the flood had laid down all the layers, one would expect to find lots of whale fossils in the Paleozoic layers; after all, there are plenty of fish fossils there and they both live in the ocean. But you don't find any whale or dolphin fossils until the Cenozoic, and then there are a number of them.

Faith in Jesus does not depend on the Bible being 100% literally true. The Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit and entrusted with founding the church, yet they sometimes made mistakes, and God was OK with that. Why should it be any different for the men who wrote the Scriptures?

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Creationists have tried to explain how the flood could have separated neatly all the fossils consistently across the world between each layer of the geologic column, but it seems the geologic column actually does support an old earth theory because of this, especially since it separates both plants and animals of the same species correctly within each layer.

Who told you the fossils are neatly separated consistently across the world between each layer of the "geologic column"?

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

You can prove the flood not being local by Scriptures only.

Assumptions : Bible is correct


Genesis 9:11
“And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.”

1) God said there should be not any more flood to destroy earth
2) There are multiple big floods each year to destroy earth locally
3) Therefore the flood which God spoke must have been global as he said because the convenant is everlasting which he made . If he lied there is no God , if he broke the promise he is not God .

Then how is it that indigenous cultures all over the world that never had any contact with the Bible, Christians or Jews all have their worldwide flood story with their ancestors as the only survivors?

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." It is better to stick with the truth; wherever it may lead.

There was an ancient Babylonian story about a man and his family who were saved from a coming flood by advance warning from God. It was based on earlier versions of the story dating back to about 2000 years BC. The hero was not named Noah in these stories but Ziusudra, Atrahasis and Gilgemesh. In the Sumerian flood legend, Ziusudra heard a voice through the wall of his house telling him that a huge flood was coming. He was instructed to build a boat. Ziusudra built the boat. When the flood came he escaped with his family and some farm animals. The important thing to learn is that an omnipotent God may warn people in advance of coming disaster and give them ways to escape.

Jesus' referred to the Bible story:
Matthew 24:37-39 (KJV - Copyright Expired)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

While researching ancient flood legends, I learned that the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers used to flood every year; sometimes severe enough to kill people and livestock. The flooding coincided with spring snow melt in the high mountains near the sources of the rivers. Modern dam building has reduced the incidence of catastrophic spring flooding.

Dude, even the Apache tribes here in AZ all say they came from a family of descendants who survived a worldwide flood. This is a worldwide phenomena among indigenous cultures that never had access to Bibles, Christians or Jews. It does not "disprove" the account in Genesis but validates it.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

The existence of index fossils is actually proof of an old earth--there's no way the flood would sort all of one kind of seashells into one layer then put all of another kind of shells in a higher layer. Creationists who misunderstand the concept of index fossils think it is circular reasoning, but it is not. Only certain kinds of fossil deposits can be dated radiometrically (volcanic deposits). When all of a certain kind of shell that can be dated falls in the same age range, it is logical to assume that when you find the same kind of shell in a layer that can't be dated radiometrically it will be in the same age range.

If the flood had laid down all the layers, one would expect to find lots of whale fossils in the Paleozoic layers; after all, there are plenty of fish fossils there and they both live in the ocean. But you don't find any whale or dolphin fossils until the Cenozoic, and then there are a number of them.

Faith in Jesus does not depend on the Bible being 100% literally true. The Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit and entrusted with founding the church, yet they sometimes made mistakes, and God was OK with that. Why should it be any different for the men who wrote the Scriptures?

Because whales and dolphins can swim and were not immovable objects on the bottom of the ocean to get buried by the very first current that brought sediments with it????

 

[Valetic]

This is absolutely Bonkers to me how many different theories there are for the origins in the Genesis story. I thought Christians were supposed to just believe the book that's why I wanted to be a young Earth creationist.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

What about the hundreds of global flood legends found in almost every ancient culture around the world? What about how the sedimentary layering is consistent across the world in typing of sediments and where it is on the column? What about extraordinary findings of certain out of the box fossilized discoveries in strange places like sea shells at the great pyramids of Egypt?

The hundreds of global flood stories in ancient and indigenous cultures where one family survived exactly what one would expect to find if there really was a worldwide flood. The Bible just gives you Gods version of the story.

 

[Valetic]

Because whales and dolphins can swim and were not immovable objects on the bottom of the ocean to get buried by the very first current that brought sediments with it????

The guys point there is where I am stumped. I know YECers have tried to tell reasons for it but to me it seems like a catastrophic global flood wouldn't bring down one type of specimen in one layer and then another in the next layer when it should really be all over the place or altogether in the same layer..

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

This is absolutely Bonkers to me how many different theories there are for the origins in the Genesis story. I thought Christians were supposed to just believe the book that's why I wanted to be a young Earth creationist.

Yeah they are and they don't because they have not done their homework.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Wouldn't you say those inconsistencies in the fossil record are rare and possibly fluke and probably were tampered with by nature? Overall the fossil record is very consistent all around the world. I would think something as catastrophic as a Global flood would have scattered all earth's specimens dramatically throughout all of the sedimentary layers but for the most part both plants and animals are consistent within each layer around the world.

with the simpler life forms near the bottom of the column.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

The guys point there is where I am stumped. I know YECers have tried to tell reasons for it but to me it seems like a catastrophic global flood wouldn't bring down one type of specimen in one layer and then another in the next layer when it should really be all over the place or altogether in the same layer..

Are you a flood geologist and understand the the ramifications of all the changing currents and the sediment layers they would deposit as one current is driven out by another current? Then all the tectonic plate movements occurring at the same time and volcanic activity. It is not as simple as you are trying to make it nor are sediment layers and fossils layers all neatly laid out the same all over the world. My point is you have not really studied, looked at all the available raw data and used your head to the extent you need to. It makes you easy prey.
Oh and aside. Fish, Whales and Dolphins were not aboard the Ark and for the most part survived.

 

[Valetic]

with the simpler life forms near the bottom of the column.

See that makes sense for the most part but I would think also that it would be kind of scattered like there would be more variety of fossils in the sedimentary layers and not conformity, but I believe there would have to be some conformity because simpler creatures couldn't survive as long as other creatures could so that aspect makes sense but then you would think also they would be kind of scattered along the sediments somewhere else anyways because of the ferocity of a global flood like that.

And the other thing also is that the plants have conformity within the layers and it's not like they had any better means to survive than other plants so why are they aligned consistently within a layer and then another specimen is aligned consistently in another layer? Wouldn't plants be all over the place or for the most part be in one or two or three layers of the sediments or something?

 

[Valetic]

Are you a flood geologist and understand the the ramifications of all the changing currents and the sediment layers they would deposit as one current is driven out by another current? Then all the tectonic plate movements occurring at the same time and volcanic activity. It is not as simple as you are trying to make it nor are sediment layers and fossils layers all neatly laid out the same all over the world. My point is you have not really studied, looked at all the available raw data and used your head to the extent you need to. It makes you easy prey.
Oh and aside. Fish, Whales and Dolphins were not aboard the Ark and for the most part survived.

No but I have for the past couple of months now and this is one of the most difficult things for me to debunk in the younger Earth global flood theory. I have considered all those things that you have said and the only way I can really have confirmation as if we could somehow recreate a scenario of sediments and specimens and conditions like earthquakes and wind and things and recreate a sort of flood situation like in the Bible and see how everything ends up there and I'm actually surprised nobody has done that yet as far as I know since we have modernized and everything maybe I should do that one day if nobody else does lol

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

See that makes sense for the most part but I would think also that it would be kind of scattered like there would be more variety of fossils in the sedimentary layers and not conformity, but I believe there would have to be some conformity because simpler creatures couldn't survive as long as other creatures could so that aspect makes sense but then you would think also they would be kind of scattered along the sediments somewhere else anyways because of the ferocity of a global flood like that.

And the other thing also is that the plants have conformity within the layers and it's not like they had any better means to survive than other plants so why are they aligned consistently within a layer and then another specimen is aligned consistently in another layer? Wouldn't plants be all over the place or for the most part be in one or two or three layers of the sediments or something?

You do realize that the massive coal fields all around the world are plants and you can find every kind of plant mixed in from peat to redwood type trees?

 

[Valetic]

You do realize that the massive coal fields all around the world are plants and you can find every kind of plant mixed in from peat to redwood type trees?

I thought you got coal from mining caves thought it was like pressure from rocks and carbon or something?