I struggle with...

[Barry Desborough]

Because it is REASONABLE.

Asserting that it is reasonable does not explain why you think it is reasonable. The misuse of capital letters is no substitute for an explanation.

 

[razzelflabben]

Can you give us a way you tested it?

in the topic, I provided several...for example, the particles for making the earth existed for an indefinite amount of time...the length of the days which are measured on day 4...flood...bottleneck for mankind...those are some that relate to this topic.

Some that relate to other topics...prophecy's...archaeology...historical writings...etc....watched a documentary some time ago on the furnace that would mirror the one used in the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo the conclusion after building one was that yes they could have survived unburnt....now we can't test for a fourth person nor the smell of smoke but that there is a pocket where someone could survive unharmed is possible according to the scientific tests.

BTW, I don't believe that all "miracles" are defying natural law, some just use natural law differently than we are used to.

Personally, there are tons...Love...protection...obedience...fruit of the HS...etc. etc. etc.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

in the topic, I provided several...for example, the particles for making the earth existed for an indefinite amount of time...the length of the days which are measured on day 4...flood...bottleneck for mankind...those are some that relate to this topic.

Some that relate to other topics...prophecy's...archaeology...historical writings...etc....watched a documentary some time ago on the furnace that would mirror the one used in the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo the conclusion after building one was that yes they could have survived unburnt....now we can't test for a fourth person nor the smell of smoke but that there is a pocket where someone could survive unharmed is possible according to the scientific tests.

BTW, I don't believe that all "miracles" are defying natural law, some just use natural law differently than we are used to.

Personally, there are tons...Love...protection...obedience...fruit of the HS...etc. etc. etc.

It seemed the point of the furnace story is that the three of them miraculously survived thanks to the power of their God. Proving that the supernatural is not required sort of undermines the narrative, doesn't it?

 

[Colter]

...trying to understand the creationist mentality. I've been struggling with this for years. Is anyone prepared to give an honest, clear explanation as to why they believe in creationism?

Common sense or maybe it's uncommon sense?

Atheism has a kind of faith that one day they will be able to prove a Godless universe, but for now it's a matter of faith.

 

[Barry Desborough]

Common sense or maybe it's uncommon sense?

Atheism has a kind of faith that one day they will be able to prove a Godless universe, but for now it's a matter of faith.

I asked about creationism, not about theism. Can you try and explain why you believe it, (if you do)?

 

[Colter]

What is alien to me is how anyone can believe a woodenly literal interpretation Genesis.

I don't, I believe Genesis was a creation of the Hebrew priest using bits of oral traditions from Mesopotamian lore.

 

[Colter]

I asked about creationism, not about theism. Can you try and explain why you believe it, (if you do)?

Life was created using the technique of evolution. Its intuitively obvious to me that life didn't invent itself, that mind is mind-made. Within the process of primitive life forms becoming complex life forms is the purposive potential of evolution.

 

[razzelflabben]

It seemed the point of the furnace story is that the three of them miraculously survived thanks to the power of their God. Proving that the supernatural is not required sort of undermines the narrative, doesn't it?

what did I say? did you read my post for comprehension? What I said is that I don't believe that all "miracles" defy the natural law, some miracles are just a different use of the natural laws than what we are used to. That being said, the miracle was the fourth person and no smoke smell as much as it was a place to survive would it not be? Why not given what I told you twice now that I believe?

See, I am not your usual Christian...in fact, hate the whole God of the gaps mentality that so many in the church try to apply to things they cannot understand from the standpoint of science. If God created the world which I believe He did, He certainly knows how it works better than I do and can do wonders within it that I couldn't even fathom. to the world that might look like a miracle but to God it's just understanding His creation and working within it. Thus we would end up with both true miracles and those things that are a different use of the natural laws.

I get in trouble all the time for being too wordy and yet here is another instance in which I said what I believe simply and you didn't read it carefully enough for me to avoid being wordy....

 

[razzelflabben]

Here is a little known interesting fact, Gen talks about evolution as in change. It also talks about adaptation. But there is a huge difference between evolution and adaptation and the theory of evolution. In fact, the core difference is not with evolution at all but with miro and macro evolution, something that science cannot evidence by the very nature of the claims.

 

[Barry Desborough]

Life was created using the technique of evolution. Its intuitively obvious to me that life didn't invent itself, that mind is mind-made. Within the process of primitive life forms becoming complex life forms is the purposive potential of evolution.

In the history of knowledge, lots of things have been intuitively obvious to people - until it turned out they were wrong. But belief in a literal interpretation of Genesis doesn't follow from your intuition anyway, does it? Why Genesis, and why a literal interpretation?

 

[Barry Desborough]

Here is a little known interesting fact, Gen talks about evolution as in change. It also talks about adaptation. But there is a huge difference between evolution and adaptation and the theory of evolution. In fact, the core difference is not with evolution at all but with miro and macro evolution, something that science cannot evidence by the very nature of the claims.

Creationists think that chimps and humans are different "kinds". Here's proof that they share common ancestors. Viruses that prove common descent

But this is still not addressing the subject. Even if evolution was falsified, why Genesis, and why interpret it literally?

 

[Gene Parmesan]

what did I say? did you read my post for comprehension? What I said is that I don't believe that all "miracles" defy the natural law, some miracles are just a different use of the natural laws than what we are used to. That being said, the miracle was the fourth person and no smoke smell as much as it was a place to survive would it not be? Why not given what I told you twice now that I believe?

See, I am not your usual Christian...in fact, hate the whole God of the gaps mentality that so many in the church try to apply to things they cannot understand from the standpoint of science. If God created the world which I believe He did, He certainly knows how it works better than I do and can do wonders within it that I couldn't even fathom. to the world that might look like a miracle but to God it's just understanding His creation and working within it. Thus we would end up with both true miracles and those things that are a different use of the natural laws.

I get in trouble all the time for being too wordy and yet here is another instance in which I said what I believe simply and you didn't read it carefully enough for me to avoid being wordy....

You'll have to excuse my confusion. Perhaps if you could clarify this bit it would help me out.

What I said is that I don't believe that all "miracles" defy the natural law, some miracles are just a different use of the natural laws than what we are used to.

I get that you think you are being clear, and maybe the deficiency really is on my end, but this doesn't seem clear to me. How is a "different use of the natural law" different from "defy the natural law?" What do you mean by "different use of the natural law?"

 

[Colter]

In the history of knowledge, lots of things have been intuitively obvious to people - until it turned out they were wrong. But belief in a literal interpretation of Genesis doesn't follow from your intuition anyway, does it? Why Genesis, and why a literal interpretation?

I don't interpret Genesis literally. I will repeat "I believe Genesis was a creation of the Hebrew priest using bits of oral traditions from Mesopotamian lore." Man can be spiritually aware before he is scientifically aware. Spirituality and religion are 2 different realms of thought.

 

[Barry Desborough]

I don't interpret Genesis literally. I will repeat "I believe Genesis was a creation of the Hebrew priest using bits of oral traditions from Mesopotamian lore." Man can be spiritually aware before he is scientifically aware. Spirituality and religion are 2 different realms of thought.

I'm fine with that. I'm just trying to understand those who do believe a woodenly literal interpretation. They seem so wedded to it. It doesn't make any sense to me why they are.

 

[Colter]

Creationists think that chimps and humans are different "kinds". Here's proof that they share common ancestors. Viruses that prove common descent

But this is still not addressing the subject. Even if evolution was falsified, why Genesis, and why interpret it literally?

I'm a creationist, this is my basic chart of the evolution of man: http://www.squarecircles.com/studyaids/manandape/primates_pictorial.pdf

 

[AV1611VET]

I believe Genesis was a creation of the Hebrew priest ...

You have something against the Hebrew priests, do you? (are you a scientist or something?)

 

[Colter]

I'm fine with that. I'm just trying to understand those who do believe a woodenly literal interpretation. They seem so wedded to it. It doesn't make any sense to me why they are.

I can explain, it's because its in the Bible and associated with other things that are true. They have been indoctrinated by religious authority which equates belief in the Bible with faith in God.

 

[razzelflabben]

You'll have to excuse my confusion. Perhaps if you could clarify this bit it would help me out.

I honestly don't know how to be any clearer maybe if you specify what you don't understand about a miracle not being outside the natural law but rather just a different use of it. I even gave an example to make it painfully clear so your gonna have to help me understand what you don't understand.

I get that you think you are being clear, and maybe the deficiency really is on my end, but this doesn't seem clear to me. How is a "different use of the natural law" different from "defy the natural law?" What do you mean by "different use of the natural law?"

Okay, let's use an absurd example. Let's take gravity...let's say that all we know about gravity is that it holds us to the ground. God in His wisdom knows that it also can be used to hold the planets in orbit. It doesn't make holding the planets in orbit "supernatural" or "miracle" or "defying the natural law" to use it that way, it just means we didn't know it could do that. I believe some of the things we term "miracles" are nothing more than God using the natural world in a way we didn't know it could be used and others are things that defy the natural law. We as human beings don't always know the difference and it really bothers me when people try to claim that everything we can't explain is some miracle. I do believe there are actual miracles but I don't believe everything that cannot be explained is a miracle.

 

[Colter]

You have something against the Hebrew priests, do you? (are you a scientist or something?)

I have a issue with religious pride that leads to a refusal to reform by some religious fanatics. Other Christians have been willing to concede the fictional components of the Bibles historic claims.

You hate science anyway, it's in your signature.

 

[razzelflabben]

Currently I am studying listening in scripture...with over 1000 passages about listening it would be nice if people on both sides of the issue would learn to listen to not only one another but themselves. So far every argument presented works for either side and none of you all can see that you are all making the same arguments just for opposing views.