I really hate the book of Revelation

hiscosmicgoldfish said:

And the book of Daniel.

I used to believe that these books were the word of God. Now I believe that they are completely false. I can’t stand all the rubbish that people go on about with eschatology, endlessly quoting from Daniel and Revelation. If you are led by the Spirit, eventually it becomes clear, that not everything that ‘they’ included in the bible is the word of God.

There is not going to be any mark of the beast. There is no antichrist, and never will be. The book of Revelation is totally devoid of the love of God. It is a rant by a very angry, disgruntled and unloving individual, who wanted the peoples of the world killed by God, in revenge for the activities of the Romans, back two thousand years ago, when people didn’t know any better.

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Simply do what God and Jesus ask and the Truth will be revealed from God with no interference possible from mass religion of sinners

Jesus DIED unjustly and horrendously painfully to bring you this Truth from God DIRECT, un-polluted by divided men of religion of sinners:-

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

that is why Jesus NEVER had anything written down during his ministry , God will tell you all Truth as quickly as YOU can BEAR that it may not be what you want to hear, to face the shame of ALL hidden sins now rather than later , repent and STOP sinning, stop abusing, start Love instead , for grace is NOT an excuse to continue sinning , sin after spirit baptism is denal of God and only death can free one of sin [Romans 6:7] if one WILL not obey God when He tells you the Truth Himself face-to-face as-it-were in spirit baptism , the Comforter :-

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore, I say unto you, All sin and profane speaking, shall be forgiven unto men,—but, the speaking profanely of the Spirit, shall not be forgiven

thus having BECOME righteous by grace one enters TRIAL of one's Love, and sin is failing to Love ... baptism of fire is necessary to prove saints are not fooling themselves about following Jesus, not Satan... one cannot get into the kingdom without spirit baptism [and all are baptised in resurrection AFTER death frees man from sin -Joel 2:28-, but God requires a FEW [Matt 7:13-14] saints from THIS life to build the kingdom for the many saved later [Rev 7:9-10] who are destroyed for their sin to death in this life ...

so deathbed confessions are of no use because there is no time left to PROVE one's Love, no time left even to listen to spirit baptism which can take a while if one has many sins one does not admit even to oneself...

and no confession can have any meaning surely if one goes and does the same sin over and over all the way to death... one cannot be baptised of the spirit until one stops sinning all the sins one acknowledges, but the first Truth God tells one in spirit baptism is all one's sins one has hidden inside and denies even to oneself... the simple Truth is that sin is of the devil, it is not Love, and Jesus commands Love, no unloving sins...

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him...
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

religion of sinners is divided because spirit baptism is SEALED from sinners, so they say whatever they like to earn a living and however much they believe their own spiel it cannot be corrected by God until they show willing to stop sinning by halting all sins they know about... thus it would be foolish to imagine that divided religion of sinners even could be about God , it is divided right down to individual beliefs , God gives ONE Truth in spirit baptism and without it there can be nothing but death for sin, death is the wages of all and any unrepented sin, grace cannot save a sinner on his death bed, nor can God help anyone who will not listen to Jesus command to Love, not sin, except after death frees all from sin... but one can only Love and prove one's Love in LIFE ...

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

interpreter said:

Global warming (last plague #4) is proof that God exists and knows the future.

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I have no doubt that God exists and knows the future. However, anyone that claims that God has revealed the future to them is just trying to make themself out as someone "special"; It is apparent in the generalities and "Oooooh, this HAS to be it" of their followers that they have decieved a LOT of people. It's going to take more than "The sky is falling, the sky is falling" to convince me that anyone claiming to be a "prophet" is neither a first class charletan or a looney toon.

hiscosmicgoldfish said:

present the case that you have.. but i have studied eschatology for over 5 years, and that is the conclusion that i have reached on these two books, after starting out as thinking that the whole bible was the inerrant word of God, as do so many evangelicals.

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I appreciate the opportunity and will do my best to properly convey what I learned.

First, a question: What happened to the Jewish background in Christian theology that was so prevalent in the New Testament?

That question, I believe, holds the key to proper interpretation.

Shortly before Rome declares war on Judea, a great persecution broke out against Jewish Christians by their Jewish counterparts. This drove them out of Judea. When Rome declared war on Judea, the Jewish Christians were not persecuted throughout the empire like their counterparts were because they weren't considered Jewish even by the main Jewish population.

With Jerusalem's destruction, it became beneficial to not show off circumcision or observe the Sabbath, because it would draw persecution. Interestingly, Paul asked what benefit was their in circumcision? Jesus said to good for others on the Sabbath.

Then, as years passed, Christianity became primarily Greek and Latin based. Concepts like the kingdom of God got filtered through Greek philosophy or Latin Stoicism. Being saved changed from being accepted into the Abrahamic Covenant to being able to go to heaven when we die.

We need a better exegesis that actually gets beck to the contexts in which the New Testament was written rather than inserting our own cultural perspective into those writings.

I'm not a preterist or a futurist, i might be classified as a 'Jesus words only'ist'.. i accept that the gospels record Jesus' teachings on the matter of eschatology.

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Awesome! Revelation thinks so as well:

Consider the strong correlation between Jesus' Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21; and the seven seals of Rev. 6-9.

When asked what the signs of His He return would be and when the temple would be destroyed, He said that:

- they would hear of wars and rumors of wars (first seal)
- nation would rise against nation (second seal)
- there would be famine (third seal)
- and pestilences in various places (fourth seal)
- then they would hand over His disciples to tribulation (fifth seal)
- when they saw the abomination of desolation that they should flee Judea (sixth seal and 144,000 sealed; read Luke 23:27-30.)
- and this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations (the great Gentile multitude clothes in white of Rev. 7)
- and then the end will come (seventh seal, end of the Times of the Jews after sixth trump.)

Now, before you ask when a third of mankind was slain, I'd like to address that. Notice that six of seven trumpets occur against thirds. A third of mankind was not a quantity. It was a quality of mankind. In this case, the Hebrews, descendants of Eber, son of Shem..

When Noah and his family were saved from destruction like the 144,000 were destined to never revert to Judaism and participate in Jerusalem's destruction, his three children repopulated the earth.

One third of mankind came from Japheth. Another came from Ham. And the last third came from Shem. Flavius Josephus, in discussing how the Jewish rebels pursued Cestius, called them by the name Shem. Only time he did that in the book. Evidently, Shem was interchangeable with the Hebrews.

So the fifth trumpet was about the five month long siege that Titus put Jerusalem through and the sixth trumpet details in hyperbole the destruction of the Jewish Nation at Jerusalem. Approximately 600,000 to 1.1 million Jews died in Jerusalem in 70 CE. In Matthew 24:21, Jesus called it the worst tribulation the Jews would ever undergo. Nobody would have thought that the Jews would face scorn and ridicule for the next 1900 years.

But Revelation's sequence stops after the sixth seal and introduces a new prophecy about many peoples, nations, languages, and kings; the Gentiles. In accordance with Matthew 21:42 and 22:14, the Gentiles received the kingdom of God and produced fruits of righteousness by them. The saints are the two witnesses of Revelation, whom build God's temple throughout the nations (the Church.) That's where we are right now.

When the fullness of the Gentiles (Romans 11:25-26, Luke 21:24) has come in and those that worship in God's temple have fulfilled their number, the nations will grow sick of the Church, as they are already doing) and will seek to destroy her. That's when Jerusalem receives her King and the dead are resurrected.

Revelation 12:1-16 accounts for the history of the persecution during the Times of the Jews, which lasted from the Exile in Babylon to the Exile in Rome. Rev. 12:17; 13-14:1 describe the history and future of persecution during the Times of the Gentiles, lasting from Domitian's reign to when Jerusalem receives her King.

Rev. 15-18 details the gradual destruction of the beast's dominion, culminating in Babylon's (Rome's) destruction. Rev. 19-22 the details the fulfillment of all prophecy.

The kingdom of God is the headline that has been reduced to fine print. It is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promises. And because Jewish background has been purged from Christian theology, we have reduced the anticipation of living out God's promises in this life to abandoning His blessings for those beyond death, dismissing out work here for the motions that life easily provides.

I'm not a preterist, futurist, or historicist (though closer than the first two.) I follow Jesus' teachings of the kingdom of God, mainly in His parables, which Revelation supports. I believe with good reason that John wrote down the Revelation before Jerusalem was destroyed and died shortly after writing it of a martyr's death (Matthew 20:20-23) like his brother James did.

The Jews heavily persecuted Jesus' first disciples (the elect, John 17:6) and they fled Judea. After that, the earth lost its saltiness (Matthew 5:13), and it was trampled underfoot by the Gentiles (Luke 21:24, Matthew 22:7), much like how God waited until Lot fled Sodom to destroy the city (Luke 17:28-30.) Jesus was revealed (Revelation) during Jerusalem's destruction.

This fits better than most eschatology, and it isn't about widespread destruction.

I'll get to Daniel later. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss my views.

hiscosmicgoldfish said:

Hi Barraco. I would say that your interpretation is a sort of historicist, of the first century? I have come to my conclusions about Revelation, and now I am rather opposed to any idea about it relating to the truth. I don’t believe in it, mainly because of the millennialism. The 1000 years seems to me to be literal, because the devil is let out of the abyss after the 1000 years, for a short time. So amillennialists say that the 1000 years is symbolic of the Christian era, and the devil has been shut up for the era, not having influence, to be let out for a short time, at the end of the era, just prior to the return of Christ. But that only works if it is evidenced that the devil has been shut away, which might have worked during the days of Luther, but not after the wars and the holocaust. So if amillennialism isn’t the truth, the only alternative is Revelations literal 1000 year kingdom of God, on the earth, after the return of Christ. That can’t be, as Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world.
That’s the main reason why I don’t believe it, but there are many other reasons.

Jesus talks a lot about heaven, his father’s house, the kingdom of God, but I don’t recall Jesus talking about a millennial kingdom on the earth. I am going to read the gospels again soon, concentrating on this matter, just to check. I recommend that you read what is written about Revelation on the Jewish encyclopaedia.
I agree with what they write; that revelation is composed of two Jewish apocalypses, which has been edited and Christianised by the Christian editor. Someone has even separated the original from the Christian interpolation and posted it on the internet.

As far as the book of Daniel goes, I agree with the biblical critics about it. I studied it a lot, and realised what it was really about.

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Hmmm. I think you overlooked my point.

Might I recommend rereading all of the parables of the kingdom of God (of heaven, same thing)? Try reading them with the mindset that Christ is telling His listeners that Jerusalem was going to be destroyed and the kingdom of God (promises to Abraham) were going to be given to the Gentiles. This was huge an signified a time in which God's blessings and promises would not be restricted by circumcision of the flesh but by circumcision of the heart.

Revelation captures all of that. It isn't written by two authors and interpolated to enforce a later agenda. It was written to the earliest disciples, encouraging them not to revert to Judaism (by signs given in the seven seals) or to submit to Rome's false imperial religion (by signs of the beast and the seven vials of God's wrath.)

The sixth trumpet ended with Jerusalem's destruction and the seventh plague ends with Rome's destruction. Smyrna would have been concerned with the Roman enforced religion while Philadelphia would have been concerned with violent Judaizers.

Its not one or the other. Its both Jews and Gentiles, describing the end of both of their times.

And the kingdom of Christ was not of the world because His kingdom is one of faith and righteousness.

The millennial kingdom has yet to come. Its established so that all of God's promises will be fulfilled, the earth will enjoy its sabbaths, and justice will flow like a river. Then all powers will be subjected to the authority of Christ, whom will turn His kingdom over to the Father so that God will be all and in all.

hiscosmicgoldfish said:

Hmmm. I think you overlooked my point.

Yeah, probably, but I am hardened somehow now to any interpretation of Revelation from the perspective of a believer in it. I don't believe in the millennial kingdom on this earth. That's what people wanted when Jesus was here the first time around, and Jesus was about another sort of kingdom.

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I get you. Its just that you are going against everything ever preached in Scripture. Where do you think you go the idea of Jesus' kingdom in the first place?

hiscosmicgoldfish said:

from the gospels, but i need to take some time out to read the gospels again, just to make sure that i have things straight. it will be interesting to go back again to check if Jesus ever mentions an earthly millennium. Bart Ehrman has said that that is what got Jesus convicted, as when Judas went to the authorities, he said that Jesus had said that the apostles were to rule the 12 tribes of Israel, and as Jesus wasn't a liar, he couldn't deny that he had said that. At the moment i don't know what to make of it, i am still studying the matter.

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Okay, I'll leave you to it. Interesting. When did Jesus say that the apostles would rule the twelve tribes? I know that Revelation justified that claim.

vocalyocal said:

Jeopardy question 4958300---------what is blaspheming the Holy Spirit

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Blasphemy means to impede or block. Therefor, if one goes chasing what is not true in favor of what is true, one can impede or block that which is true. It is not a matter of "unforgivable" as much as "unreachable".

Soulgazer said:

I have no doubt that God exists and knows the future. However, anyone that claims that God has revealed the future to them is just trying to make themself out as someone "special"; It is apparent in the generalities and "Oooooh, this HAS to be it" of their followers that they have decieved a LOT of people. It's going to take more than "The sky is falling, the sky is falling" to convince me that anyone claiming to be a "prophet" is neither a first class charletan or a looney toon.

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Jesus revealed the future, not me. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues.

interpreter said:

Jesus revealed the future, not me. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues.

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You can believe that if you wish. To me it is as readily apparent that someone claiming to have a vision used the name of Jesus to give their dream authority.

Soulgazer said:

You can believe that if you wish. To me it is as readily apparent that someone claiming to have a vision used the name of Jesus to give their dream authority.

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In John's Gospel, Jesus said that John would live to see Him return. The Revelation is the prophesied return of Jesus to John to reveal the kingdom of God. As the Revelation says, "The proof of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy." The proof is that the prophesied 7 last plagues are now being poured out.

interpreter said:

In John's Gospel, Jesus said that John would live to see Him return. The Revelation is the prophesied return of Jesus to John to reveal the kingdom of God. As the Revelation says, "The proof of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy." The proof is that the prophesied 7 last plagues are now being poured out.

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That's not proof. That's your interpretation and opinion.

gordRedeemed said:

That's not proof. That's your interpretation and opinion.

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So you're a global warming denier?
Or do you deny that a plague of skin cancer has been poured out on Aryans?

interpreter said:

So you're a global warming denier?
Or do you deny that a plague of skin cancer has been poured out on Aryans?

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So because I don't believe your 'prophecy' or your 'proof', I am somehow a global warming denier and deny skin cancer?

hiscosmicgoldfish said:

Yep. This is what I think...

Daniel was written after the facts. It’s a fraud. The whole book is about the empire of the Greeks, the Seleucids and the Ptolemaic rulers. Antiochus IV is the main character. The book was written in 167 BC, during the Maccabean revolt, to give encouragement to the Jews, who were being persecuted by Antiochus, as nobody in history was as bad as Antiochus as far as the Jews were concerned.
I don’t know of any scholar who thinks that Daniel was written back in the Babylonian exile. Daniel isn’t about Jesus, although it has a messianic angle to it. The prince involved was Onias 3, a Jewish priest.

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Daniel was written not in 167 B.C.E., but several hundred years prior to this. How can this be known ? At Daniel 1:1, it gives a starting timeline, saying: "In the third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim, the king of Judah Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem to lay siege to it."(Dan 1:1) When was this ? 618 B.C.E., when king Nebuchadnezzar came up against Jerusalem to punish it because of Jehoiakim's rebellion and at which time Jehoiakim's eleven year reign ended.

Then at Daniel 10:1, it says that "in the third year of Cyrus the king of Persia, there was a matter revealed to Daniel." What year was this ? Cyrus the Persian took down Babylon on October 5/6, 539 B.C.E. Hence, his
third year" with regard to Babylon was 536 B.C.E., and in which Daniel was perhaps 100 years old. Daniel wrote the book of Daniel first hand, completing it 536 B.C.E. just before his death. Time covered 618 - 536 B.C.E.

The book of Daniel has nothing to do with the Maccabean history, but rather gives forevisions of the power struggle of the great dynasties from Daniel's time down till "the time of the end."(Dan 12:4) Thus, with Daniel 2 and 7 surmising the same thing, of a "changing of the guard", for ancient Babylon was the "head of gold" as well as the first "wild beast" that was like a lion".(Dan 2:38; 7:4) Babylon was followed by Medo-Persia in 539 B.C.E (Dan 2:39a; 7:5), then Medo-Persia was replaced with Greece in 331 B.C.E. (Dan 2:39b; 7:6) and Rome took control of the last of Hellenistic kingdom that came from Alexander the Great, the Ptolemic kingdom in 30 B.C.E.(Dan 2:40; 7:7)

At Daniel 11, there is outlined a power struggle between the "king of the north" and the "king of the south" that comes all the way down to our day. These two "kingdoms" engage "in a pushing" in the "time of the end" (Dan 11:40) , our time period that began with Jesus installment as king of God's kingdom in 1914.

Then, at Daniel 12:4, Daniel is told to "seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant." Thence, it is during our time period, "the time of the end", that the book of Daniel is unveiled.

But the angel tells Daniel: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will clothe themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, an no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand."(Dan 12:9, 10)

Hence, because of being unable to unlock the "mysteries" of Daniel, many cast it aside as a "fraud". As the angel told Daniel, that "no wicked ones at all will understand", but only "the ones having insight will understand."