I need some advice please

Southernscotty

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Just a couple of things to say here. One I would beware of any debating with COC's I used to attend a church and found out it was like a 'Stepford Church' if you get my meaning. They wouldn't even discuss the book of Revelation, something very apt today. They would question new people coming into the church and make judgements to if you were worthy or not to attend. I had to stop going because of work but my husband continued. I found out that they were actually brainwashing him into divorcing me! He finally realized what they were doing there and left.

They will not back down on their beliefs so I would advise you that you shouldn't waste your time. If you still want to hang out with this person then make a caveat that religion is off the table for any discussion.

Now that being said I do believe in this.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...................
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2
Thank you. I do care a lot for him but I can't continue this way. I am planning to talk to him tomorrow and explain that under the circumstances I can't continue the debate yet wish to remain friends. I hope this works
 
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Lulav

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Thank you. I do care a lot for him but I can't continue this way. I am planning to talk to him tomorrow and explain that under the circumstances I can't continue the debate yet wish to remain friends. I hope this works
Pray yourself up before hand, allow the LORD to guide your words, maybe you can save him! :)
 
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Danielwright2311

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We were created to do good works, but God does not accept our works as a replacement for the obedience of the Son who did the work necessary to save us and reconcile us back to God Almighty.

"Good works" can become an idol to some folk as they boast about how they are faithful to only worship on Sunday, have communion every Sunday, give an offering every Sunday, have Bible Study (not worship) on Wednesday, and not use a musical instrument during a Sunday worship service.

So your excuses on not teaching to do good works is adultery?

A good work is giving to the poor, feeding them, giving them a home, clothji9ng them, that is a good work.

Every one gives to the church, so I would not call that a good deed.

I would rather teach to do good works AND SO SHOULD YOU.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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We are in a constant scripture war and I do not like to be accused of being a heretic, They have thrown out some good stuff that I cannot deny, however they cannot see any other way than doing some fleshly works as mandatory to receive salvation .
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They keep saying see, You have to believe and that is a work too? This has been a drain on me.
Sounds like spiritual abuse to me. This is the cousin of domestic violence and workplace bullying. The Scripture says that those who don't have the spirit of Christ are none of His. Sounds like these fellows are lacking in that area. They might be highly qualified and very religious, but I would be surprised if I saw their faces in Heaven, because they might not be genuinely converted to Christ. They might think they are, but the type of arrogance they have shown you makes me seriously doubt it. PM me, and I will send you my book on Spiritual Abuse in the Church, free fo charge, if you are interested in reading it.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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They are Church of Christ members. The ONE church as they say. I am speaking them as a denomination which the refute

I'm uncertain whether this Church of Christ is the same as the International Church of Christ; both have the notion that they are the exclusive "true" church as their precept.

My family was friends with the grown children of the founder of the International Church of Christ, Kip McKean, who used to live in Pacific Palisades. His daughter is a part of the alumni association my mom belongs to, and they befriended one another there, and we also got to know his sons when they were tennis instructors. McKean indoctrinated his congregants with the belief that they were the only true church, that the only way to have an authentic relationship with Jesus and receive his grace and eternal salvation was to be a faithful, tithing member of it. He would choose leaders based on their charisma and loyalty to him and his tenets; many were young and received no formal theological education, instead only being trained with his materials. They in turn trained congregants to invest in that false belief. He put the leaders on college campuses, where they appealed to students because of their recruiting method of "love bombing" (surrounding newcomers with affection and friendship, then rescinding it if the person decides not to join) and services that had the music and vibe of a music festival and was notably different than the stereotypical fusty services of old. Once students joined, they were expected to only live with and date one another, to get approval from slightly older members called "disciplers" for course choices and major life decisions, to tithe weekly, and to cut off any family member who tried to persuade them to leave.

The cult-like aspects of it caused many colleges to ban them after substantial complaints and even police reports. McKean had made a rule that if the spouse or children of a leader "fell away" (left the sect) that leader then had to resign to focus on "repairing" his family. That very rule was used to push him out of leadership when his own children left his sect in their early adulthood.

If this friend is a part of that organization I think you could devote twenty years of your life to trying to debate scripture and never progress beyond the frustration you feel now. Even if the Church of Christ isn't the same as the International Church of Christ, the same false teaching is being taught, and I think it would be similarly futile. I'd only advise pursuing this if the friend is young and naive, and you believe is being exploited. I'd see that more as an intervention than a debate.
 
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Deborah D

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I will add that the thief on the cross next to Christ was told he would be in heaven with Christ and no way was he let off the cross to be baptized.
Is that your little puppy in your avatar? It's soooo cute!
 
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ToBeLoved

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Mark 16:16
What I believe that verse is more referring to is repentance and what John the Baptist taught.

Going from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant it was important to show how sin was to be atoned for.

In the Old Covenant that was an animal blood sacrifice through the Levitical priesthood, in Christ and the New Covenant they had to look at sin in a different way.

Animal sacrifices were a temporary atonement that had to be done over and over and over.

Jesus, the Lamb of God was a permenant atonement. Christ died once and it was not a yearly thing to think about, but a daily. Constant repentance, permanent forgiveness.

I also think ritual bathing came into play. Jewish Hebrews were use to ritual bathing to enter the Tabernacle, but in Christ EACH believer is a Tabernacle because God Himself lives in us. Each of us is the priesthood.

So a lot of things had to be explained and changed. Remember, Jesus entire life was dedicated to the Hebrews and God’s chosen people
 
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danielmears

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We are in a constant scripture war and I do not like to be accused of being a heretic, They have thrown out some good stuff that I cannot deny, however they cannot see any other way than doing some fleshly works as mandatory to receive salvation .
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They keep saying see, You have to believe and that is a work too? This has been a drain on me.
If believing, having faith, like you have is a work, as they say, then they should agree you are saved by works too. As you say, works is not required other than believing because what if you are on your death bed when you receive Christ or an invalid. Are they then not saved or is the work of believing sufficient? Do not let it drain you. Just love them and agree that good fruit does come from your life, peace, love and the very power of God moving thriugh you! May God bless you and give you the words you need. There are probably very few believers who believe exactly the same. James too wanted works, wanted folks to help one another and not sit on the sidelines. When you are filled with love it tends to manifest as good fruit.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Well when Nicodemus asked Jesus what one must do to be born again Jesus did not say to go do some good works Jesus did not say to go walk down an aisle or hold up your hand or say a little prayer.

He did state that it was a work of the Holy Spirit which is like the wind we have no control over it.

I was raised in the Church of Christ Church one big problem I see is they believe they're the only church. At least that's what my aunt's thought. I would never believe that for Christ's Church is spread out among many.

Best to shake the sand off your sandals and let those guys go.

Sounds like you will not change them and they will not be changing you.

M-Bob
 
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LoricaLady

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I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.
To be honest I agree with you in part, but not in whole. Abraham was saved by grace. I also do not think there is a brand new, New Testament, way of doing things. By far most of what Messiah said was simply a reiteration of, not uncommonly literally, of what was in the Old Testament. The New Testament is new in that Messiah brought us to a deeper level of understanding. For example He let us know that not just the physical act of adultery is sin, but lust is too. Also, part of the New Testament, of course, has to do with the fact that Isaiah 53, the Sacrifice of the Lamb, is recorded there as finally having happened.

Somehow people have gotten the idea that the Savior came and gave us some new laws, laws of love, and that this changed everything. No, again, He only reinforced what was. Messiah was asked not what was new and improved, or changed, but what were the greatest laws in the Old Testament. His response, to love YHWH, aka God, with all our hearts and souls and minds and to love others as ourselves comprises His verbal repetition of what is in the Mosaic Law.

Now as to grace needing works, no way. "It is by grace we are saved and not of ourselves." However "Faith without works is dead." How can we truly have faith in the Lord and not want to serve Him, which means to serve others?

I think your friend's friend should be shown the door if he ever shows up again. Or at least make it clear you don't want him to come back. Calling you a heretic - well, frankly people like that make me wonder what is really going on in their own lives. The guy is clueless and was way out of line and grossly rude to verbally attack you in that way.
 
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Deborah D

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To be honest I agree with you in part, but not in whole. Abraham was saved by grace. I also do not think there is a brand new, New Testament, way of doing things. By far most of what Messiah said was simply a reiteration of, not uncommonly literally, of what was in the Old Testament. The New Testament is new in that Messiah brought us to a deeper level of understanding. For example He let us know that not just the physical act of adultery is sin, but lust is too. Also, part of the New Testament, of course, has to do with the fact that Isaiah 53, the Sacrifice of the Lamb, is recorded there as finally having happened.

Somehow people have gotten the idea that the Savior came and gave us some new laws, laws of love, and that this changed everything. No, again, He only reinforced what was. Messiah was asked not what was new and improved, or changed, but what were the greatest laws in the Old Testament. His response, to love YHWH, aka God, with all our hearts and souls and minds and to love others as ourselves comprises His verbal repetition of what is in the Mosaic Law.

Now as to grace needing works, no way. "It is by grace we are saved and not of ourselves." However "Faith without works is dead." How can we truly have faith in the Lord and not want to serve Him, which means to serve others?

I think your friend's friend should be shown the door if he ever shows up again. Or at least make it clear you don't want him to come back. Calling you a heretic - well, frankly people like that make me wonder what is really going on in their own lives. The guy is clueless and was way out of line and grossly rude to verbally attack you in that way.


I'm always interested in hearing the Messianic perspective having grown up in the western church. It seems that the two perspectives are so different, so bear with me as I explain what I've come to understand about the Christian life.

I see a world of difference between living under the Law of Moses and living as a Christian. Jesus didn't just give us a "deeper level of understanding," but He gave us a new and higher way to live--off the imperfect flesh continuum. At one end of this continuum is legalism (trying to be righteous by keeping the Law). At the other end is license (thumbing our nose at the Law).

The Law was imposed from an external source and is lived out in the flesh because it was imposed on the flesh due to sin. Of course, we know that nothing good dwells in the flesh, as Paul said, so the Law could never be obeyed perfectly and wasn't really meant to be.

On the other hand, when Jesus went to the Father, He sent the Holy Spirit and gave us the means to be lifted off the flesh continuum and up to a life lived by the power of the Holy Spirit --by grace through faith. No longer do we live by a list of external rules imposed on the disobedient flesh, but as new creations in Christ, we live directed and guided by the Holy Spirit from within. God showed me that grace is His saving and sustaining power. We are saved from the old life (of disobedience to the Law) by God's saving power and sustained in this new life (of obedience to the Spirit) by God's sustaining power.

So, those who are under the Law are obligated to obey the external commandments. But those of us who are born again are to live by the Spirit and be led by the internal guidance and empowerment of the Spirit. As Paul said, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" (Gal. 5:18).

This is a revolutionary way to live!

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient. We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens, so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift — not from works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], so that no one can boast. For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.
I'm sure that there are whole books written on this subject, so this is just a tiny snapshot of what it means to live the Christian life, IMHO.

Blessings to you!
 
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112358

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What I believe that verse is more referring to is repentance and what John the Baptist taught.

Going from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant it was important to show how sin was to be atoned for.

In the Old Covenant that was an animal blood sacrifice through the Levitical priesthood, in Christ and the New Covenant they had to look at sin in a different way.

Animal sacrifices were a temporary atonement that had to be done over and over and over.

Jesus, the Lamb of God was a permenant atonement. Christ died once and it was not a yearly thing to think about, but a daily. Constant repentance, permanent forgiveness.

I also think ritual bathing came into play. Jewish Hebrews were use to ritual bathing to enter the Tabernacle, but in Christ EACH believer is a Tabernacle because God Himself lives in us. Each of us is the priesthood.

So a lot of things had to be explained and changed. Remember, Jesus entire life was dedicated to the Hebrews and God’s chosen people
So we are not bound by the commandments of Mark 16:16 because they were only for the Jews? Do I understand that correctly? Why are we bound to even believe then?

I suppose if that were the only verse about baptism that either Jesus or the apostles spoke about the argument might be stronger, but it is not by a long shot. Christ told the apostles that He possessed all authority in heaven and on earth. He then told them based on that authority to take His gospel and teachings to all nations. That is not just the Jews. He told them to make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Then the apostles did exactly that starting at Pentecost, precisely as instructed. They took Christ's message to the entire world and began baptizing everyone in sight! Jew and Gentile alike. Peter commanded it at Pentecost at the very birth of the NT church. Later he said that it "now saves us". Paul was baptized himself to "wash away your sins". He expounded at length about its importance in several of his epistles.

Respectfully, I will stick with what Christ, Peter, Paul, the rest of the apostles, and the whole of the NT teach about baptism.
 
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Dave-W

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... and there is the International Church of Christ (a offshoot of the United Church of Christ), which we have been discussing. The International Church of Christ will also identify itself by their locations (i.e. Boston Church of Christ, Los Angeles Church of Christ, etc.).
They are a very restrictive and cultish control group.

Stay far away.
 
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LoricaLady

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I'm always interested in hearing the Messianic perspective having grown up in the western church. It seems that the two perspectives are so different, so bear with me as I explain what I've come to understand about the Christian life.

I see a world of difference between living under the Law of Moses and living as a Christian. Jesus didn't just give us a "deeper level of understanding," but He gave us a new and higher way to live--off the imperfect flesh continuum. At one end of this continuum is legalism (trying to be righteous by keeping the Law). At the other end is license (thumbing our nose at the Law).

The Law was imposed from an external source and is lived out in the flesh because it was imposed on the flesh due to sin. Of course, we know that nothing good dwells in the flesh, as Paul said, so the Law could never be obeyed perfectly and wasn't really meant to be.

On the other hand, when Jesus went to the Father, He sent the Holy Spirit and gave us the means to be lifted off the flesh continuum and up to a life lived by the power of the Holy Spirit --by grace through faith. No longer do we live by a list of external rules imposed on the disobedient flesh, but as new creations in Christ, we live directed and guided by the Holy Spirit from within. God showed me that grace is His saving and sustaining power. We are saved from the old life (of disobedience to the Law) by God's saving power and sustained in this new life (of obedience to the Spirit) by God's sustaining power.

So, those who are under the Law are obligated to obey the external commandments. But those of us who are born again are to live by the Spirit and be led by the internal guidance and empowerment of the Spirit. As Paul said, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" (Gal. 5:18).

This is a revolutionary way to live!

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient. We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens, so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift — not from works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], so that no one can boast. For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.
I'm sure that there are whole books written on this subject, so this is just a tiny snapshot of what it means to live the Christian life, IMHO.

Blessings to you!
Since this is not a debate forum - though I and many have been guilty of debating here anyway - I would prefer to respond by PM. :)
 
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Dave-W

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I'm always interested in hearing the Messianic perspective having grown up in the western church. It seems that the two perspectives are so different, so bear with me as I explain what I've come to understand about the Christian life.

I see a world of difference between living under the Law of Moses and living as a Christian. J
Part of that "Messianic Perspective" is understanding the phrase "Law of Moses" is inaccurate.

It is based partly on the Septuagint translators using the Greek word nomos to translate the Hebrew Torah.

Torah
means first and foremost "teaching" or "instruction." "Law" is a secondary definition. Nomos means plain and simple "law." When you see "Law of Moses" in the NT, it is referring to the Torah - God's teaching and instruction transmitted thru Moses.

So keep "instruction" in mind instead of legalism.
 
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ToBeLoved

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So we are not bound by the commandments of Mark 16:16 because they were only for the Jews? Do I understand that correctly? Why are we bound to even believe then?

I suppose if that were the only verse about baptism that either Jesus or the apostles spoke about the argument might be stronger, but it is not by a long shot. Christ told the apostles that He possessed all authority in heaven and on earth. He then told them based on that authority to take His gospel and teachings to all nations. That is not just the Jews. He told them to make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Then the apostles did exactly that starting at Pentecost, precisely as instructed. They took Christ's message to the entire world and began baptizing everyone in sight! Jew and Gentile alike. Peter commanded it at Pentecost at the very birth of the NT church. Later he said that it "now saves us". Paul was baptized himself to "wash away your sins". He expounded at length about its importance in several of his epistles.

Respectfully, I will stick with what Christ, Peter, Paul, the rest of the apostles, and the whole of the NT teach about baptism.
I don’t know where you get your synopsis of what I said from.

Tome, it is very obvious by Jesus on the cross saying that the thief on the cross next to him would be with Him that day in paradise, and could NOT have been baptized before his own death on the cross, that his not being baptized did not affect his salvation.

Of course we all are baptized as Christ tells us we must be.

However, I don’t think that lack of water baptism keeps one out of heaven, as evident by Jesus saving the thief on the cross.

The only thing I wanted to really get across with my post was how water r ritual cleansing was in the Old Testament.

Again, I feel that you made a lot of assumptions from my post.
 
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Dave-W

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Isn’t the Church of Christ an off shoot of Mornmonism
NO. But Mormonism has roots in the Stone Campbell Restoration movement that started the Church of Christ group of denominations.

So I guess the Mormons would be more of an offshoot of the CoC.
 
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