I need some advice please

[Dave L]

You really don't get it do you?

And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.1 Peter 1:17

For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. 2 Corinthians 5:10

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.Revelation 22:12

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-46

What people do matters. No word games will make that change. Pretending that you're saying something profound when you play around with "which came first" is just a way to deny what scripture says. People face judgement for what they do. Good and bad people, saved and not saved people. They all will answer for what they do.

The CoC may be all wrong about salvation - I think that probably are all wrong about it - but the truth is that what a Christian does matters. There's no use pretending otherwise. Your responses give the message that you are more concerned with protecting a doctrine than with what the scriptures say.

Acting like a Christian does not make you a Christian. God makes you a Christian and it is your new nature to do all the good things Christians do.

 

[112358]

Friend if you accept my view of dispensation and Acts as transitional then you will see that we are indeed saved by grace through faith and nothing else is needed.
Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the new covenant once we accept Him out of a pepent heart, Works will come like a fish breathing underwater, They spring forth out of the love of a circumcised heart

Scotty, if by "faith" you mean "belief", then this is the first place where we disagree. The Jews who had crucified the Savior certainly believed what Peter was preaching in Acts 2 at Pentecost. Oh they believed, to be sure! And they begged Peter's answer to the question their belief demanded of them, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Everyone here knows what reply Peter offered.

Why, if belief is all it takes end of story, did those believers not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at that moment when they were "cut to heart", when they believed?? Why the need to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins if they had already been saved when they believed??

 

[Southernscotty]

There is two kinds of faith, the demons have one because they know of God and that He is real and the other one is a saving faith.
Saving faith is a divine knowledge of God because we have heard the drawing of His Word and have accepted it as truth. Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Look at the chair analogy, You believe a chair will hold you, But you place trust in it when you sit down.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Scotty, if by "faith" you mean "belief", then this is the first place where we disagree. The Jews who had crucified the Savior certainly believed what Peter was preaching in Acts 2 at Pentecost. Oh they believed, to be sure! And they begged Peter's answer to the question their belief demanded of them, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Everyone here knows what reply Peter offered.

Why, if belief is all it takes end of story, did those believers not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at that moment when they were "cut to heart", when they believed?? Why the need to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins if they had already been saved when they believed??

Pentecost is when the disciples first received the Holy Spirit and after the disciples had received the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of hands.

Not so today, so your point is way off.

 

[112358]

Pentecost is when the disciples first received the Holy Spirit and after the disciples had received the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of hands.

Not so today, so your point is way off.

ok, let's remove questions and confusion about Holy Spirit baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc. for the moment. That actually was not the point.

My question was, why was something else required of those at Pentecost AFTER they clearly believed? Why did Peter not respond with something like, "What shall you do? Do nothing! Just rejoice that you have been saved by your belief! Congratulations brethren!"

 

[112358]

There is two kinds of faith, the demons have one because they know of God and that He is real and the other one is a saving faith.
Saving faith is a divine knowledge of God because we have heard the drawing of His Word and have accepted it as truth. Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Look at the chair analogy, You believe a chair will hold you, But you place trust in it when you sit down.

Ok. See my question is post# 205.

 

[ToBeLoved]

ok, let's remove questions and confusion about Holy Spirit baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc. for the moment. That actually was not the point.

My question was, why was something else required of those at Pentecost AFTER they clearly believed? Why did Peter not respond with something like, "What shall you do? Do nothing! Just rejoice that you have been saved by your belief! Congratulations brethren!"

Because many in that audience were Jewish Hebrews who were trying to understand who Jesus Christ was and how this fit into their understanding of the Law and the Old Covenant.

As your example referenced Acts 2, I will also reference Acts 2.

In that chapter, Peter went back to the Old Testament to show these people that Christ was the Messiah that David spoke about. Peter specifically was speaking to the Jewish converts when he referenced this.

As Jesus Himself stared many times in His ministry, He came for the Jewish people as their promised Messiah in His life.

It is only in Jesus death, that the New Covenant came into affect for all people.

 

[Southernscotty]

Ok. See my question is post# 205.

Because the jews wahed everything in purification rituals and it was ingrained in their mind to do this as it was law since Moses however a greater than Moses came and we are under a new covenant now. That is why Acts is transitional friend. We are now saved by grace.

 

[112358]

Because many in that audience were Jewish Hebrews who were trying to understand who Jesus Christ was and how this fit into their understanding of the Law and the Old Covenant.

As your example referenced Acts 2, I will also reference Acts 2.

In that chapter, Peter went back to the Old Testament to show these people that Christ was the Messiah that David spoke about. Peter specifically was speaking to the Jewish converts when he referenced this.

As Jesus Himself stared many times in His ministry, He came for the Jewish people as their promised Messiah in His life.

It is only in Jesus death, that the New Covenant came into affect for all people.

Yes, Peter was speaking to Jews at Pentecost. Those who he said had crucified Christ. I'm not understanding what that fact has to do with my question.

 

[112358]

Because the jews wahed everything in purification rituals and it was ingrained in their mind to do this as it was law since Moses however a greater than Moses came and we are under a new covenant now. That is why Acts is transitional friend. We are now saved by grace.

Ok. So only Jewish converts needed to be baptized? Then what about Cornelius Scotty? He was a Gentile, and Peter would not refuse him water even AFTER he believed and received the Spirit just like the apostles did at Pentecost! Why did Cornelius need to be baptized??

Everyone who became a Christian from the day of Pentecost forward did so under the new covenant, Jew, Gentile, every single one. There were not different requirements for the two groups.

 

[Southernscotty]

Ok. So only Jewish converts needed to be baptized? Then what about Cornelius Scotty? He was a Gentile, and Peter would not refuse him water even AFTER he believed and received the Spirit just like the apostles did at Pentecost! Why did Cornelius need to be baptized??

Everyone who became a Christian from the day of Pentecost forward did so under the new covenant, Jew, Gentile, every single one. There were not different requirements for the two groups.

Yes friend but then look what Peter said after that in Acts 11:16, 17 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

 

[Southernscotty]

You do not have to have any ordinance to save you. Just faith in Jesus Christ.
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Baptism is wonderful and is a requirement, But it is to show an outward sign of an inward change.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Ok. So only Jewish converts needed to be baptized? Then what about Cornelius Scotty? He was a Gentile, and Peter would not refuse him water even AFTER he believed and received the Spirit just like the apostles did at Pentecost! Why did Cornelius need to be baptized??

Everyone who became a Christian from the day of Pentecost forward did so under the new covenant, Jew, Gentile, every single one. There were not different requirements for the two groups.

I think the point you may be missing is between what actions are responses to salvation verses what actions are requirements of salvation.

The bare minimum requirement for salvation is belief on Jesus in truth (and God enables that belief).

After that, you have responses to our salvation... we believe and are saved, therefore, that belief will show in our actions. Those actions aren't salvation requirements as someone without the ability to do those things can still be saved, as seen in the thief on the cross, however they are responses to salvation. Baptism, joining your local Christian community, communion, good deeds.. those are all responses to God's forgiveness and our new change of heart and spirit.

When you put our deeds into the requirement category, then you attempt to usurp the power of salvation from God, and give it tro yourself - which never works out and never ends with you seeing heaven when you think you have the power to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and take heaven by storm. It's a 'by invitation only' kind of place...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, Peter was speaking to Jews at Pentecost. Those who he said had crucified Christ. I'm not understanding what that fact has to do with my question.

My understanding is your question is below. Cut and pasted from the post I replied to:

**
My question was, why was something else required of those at Pentecost AFTER they clearly believed? Why did Peter not respond with something like, "What shall you do?
**

I answered why Peter told them Hebrews needed to repent and be baptized. Why it was different for that short period of time when the Jewish Hebrews we’re understanding how the New Covenant and Christ effected and was a transition for them from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant.

During this transition the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of hands.

Now however, since the death of that generation, we are fully New Covenant people’s.

 

[Deborah D]

I think the point you may be missing is between what actions are responses to salvation verses what actions are requirements of salvation.

The bare minimum requirement for salvation is belief on Jesus in truth (and God enables that belief).

After that, you have responses to our salvation... we believe and are saved, therefore, that belief will show in our actions. Those actions aren't salvation requirements as someone without the ability to do those things can still be saved, as seen in the thief on the cross, however they are responses to salvation. Baptism, joining your local Christian community, communion, good deeds.. those are all responses to God's forgiveness and our new change of heart and spirit.

When you put our deeds into the requirement category, then you attempt to usurp the power of salvation from God, and give it tro yourself - which never works out and never ends with you seeing heaven when you think you have the power to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and take heaven by storm. It's a 'by invitation only' kind of place...

If baptism were a requirement for salvation, then I believe that every Bible verse that mentions how to be saved, would mention water baptism as a requirement to be saved, but they don't.

Romans 10:8-13--

This is the message of faith that we proclaim: If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation. Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame, for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
​

I'm sure the COC has their own explanation to make this fit their doctrine, but I don't see any way to call baptism a requirement for salvation. It's a very important step of obedience, no doubt.

Also, I think about all the people who couldn't be baptized--people who died alone or on a battlefield.... Did they end up in hell?

 

[ToBeLoved]

If baptism were a requirement for salvation, then I believe that every Bible verse that mentions how to be saved, would mention water baptism as a requirement to be saved, but they don't.

Romans 10:8-13--

This is the message of faith that we proclaim: If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation. Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame, for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
​

I'm sure the COC has their own explanation to make this fit their doctrine, but I don't see any way to call baptism a requirement for salvation. It's a very important step of obedience, no doubt.

Also, I think about all the people who couldn't be baptized--people who died alone or on a battlefield.... Did they end up in hell?

I will add that the thief on the cross next to Christ was told he would be in heaven with Christ and no way was he let off the cross to be baptized.

 

[112358]

You do not have to have any ordinance to save you. Just faith in Jesus Christ.
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Baptism is wonderful and is a requirement, But it is to show an outward sign of an inward change.

The contradiction in these statements is striking to me. I don't mean that in an accusatory way, they just don't make sense to me.

"Faith alone" demands obedience to one command associated with salvation (believe), and outright rejects others found right there together with it, sometimes in the very same verse! It just baffles me to no end!

 

[Lulav]

I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

Just a couple of things to say here. One I would beware of any debating with COC's I used to attend a church and found out it was like a 'Stepford Church' if you get my meaning. They wouldn't even discuss the book of Revelation, something very apt today. They would question new people coming into the church and make judgements to if you were worthy or not to attend. I had to stop going because of work but my husband continued. I found out that they were actually brainwashing him into divorcing me! He finally realized what they were doing there and left.

They will not back down on their beliefs so I would advise you that you shouldn't waste your time. If you still want to hang out with this person then make a caveat that religion is off the table for any discussion.

Now that being said I do believe in this.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...................
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2

 

[Southernscotty]

The contradiction in these statements is striking to me. I don't mean that in an accusatory way, they just don't make sense to me.

"Faith alone" demands obedience to one command associated with salvation (believe), and outright rejects others found right there together with it, sometimes in the very same verse! It just baffles me to no end!

You have to see the grace. It is purely a gift of God .

 

[ToBeLoved]

The contradiction in these statements is striking to me. I don't mean that in an accusatory way, they just don't make sense to me.

"Faith alone" demands obedience to one command associated with salvation (believe), and outright rejects others found right there together with it, sometimes in the very same verse! It just baffles me to no end!

What verse are you referring to?