I need some advice please

[112358]

I am a former Church of Christ (Restoration Movement) member. They view me as backslidden, but I could still repent and come back to the Lord's true church.

To understand this bunch you have to go back to their beginnings, but it's not worth the journey. Their favorite tactic is the FUD Factor - Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. They promote a five step (five-finger) "gospel." You have to Hear-Believe-Confess-Repent-and Be Baptized in Water by Full Immersion to be saved and obedient to the gospel. They believe they "restored" salvation by immersion and that the church had stopped practicing immersion for 1500 years before they restored it. They claim to not be a denomination but they're as much of a denomination as any group could ever be. I say to tell them, "Thanks, but no thanks. The Lord's own obedience on the cross has saved me as I have put my faith in what He has done. Only Christ's shed blood was an acceptable payment which would reconcile mankind back to God."

They believe that Christ's blood is in the baptismal waters and they believe that you must be under water for the Holy Spirit to regenerate you.

The first true Christian church in America was Barton Stone's church at Cane Ridge. Barton Stone's Stoneites joined Alexander Campbell's Campbellites and formed the Disciples of Christ in 1832. After the Civil War, members, led by David Lipscomb, who thought the Disciples were too worldly, eventually split and formed the Churches of Christ. They were listed with the Federal Government as a Christian denomination in 1906.

This is the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Respectfully, there is very little here that accurately describes the COC or it's primary doctrinal positions. I'm sorry your experience left you with this impression.

 

[Dave L]

Your reasoning is faulty so your conclusions are erroneous. Besides the good news is about Jesus Christ who said repent and believe because the kingdom of God is at hand. I have no idea what you mean by conditional. If you mean that a person has to come up to scratch before they can receive the gospel then that's just wrong. If you mean that a person has to be faithful then that is right. Matthew 25:31-46 tells that story clearly enough. Peter also mentions it "If you invoke as Father the one who judges all people impartially according to their deeds, live in reverent fear during the time of your exile."

We believe because God saved us. God did not save us because we chose to believe = self-righteousness.

 

[GingerBeer]

We believe because God saved us. God did not save us because we chose to believe = self-righteousness.

That's just playing games with words. It's like the question about which came first, the chicken or the egg. In the end what does it matter anyway. If your endeavour is to build a system of theology on a word game then good luck with that. I don't think you'll succeed.

Paul observes, in Romans 5:1-11 , that God loved his people before they loved him but Paul's point is not that no one except God loves. His point is that God's people love as a consequence of being loved. In Ephesians 2:1-10 Paul says it's grace that saves, naturally it is God's grace that he speaks about, through faith which is to say by means of believing not merely with intellectual ascent but with living obedient belief that is like Abraham's belief which was proved by what he did (James 2:14-26), and this kind of faith works the good works that God foreordained for his people to do. There's no divorce between faith and good works in Paul's teaching nor in James' either. If you're trying to divorce faith from good works then you will fail.

Now, why did you ignore what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46? and what Pater wrote in 1 Peter 1:17?

 

[Dave L]

That's just playing games with words. It's like the question about which came first, the chicken or the egg. In the end what does it matter anyway. If your endeavour is to build a system of theology on a word game then good luck with that. I don't think you'll succeed.

Paul observes, in Romans 5:1-11 , that God loved his people before they loved him but Paul's point is not that no one except God loves. His point is that God's people love as a consequence of being loved. In Ephesians 2:1-10 Paul says it's grace that saves, naturally it is God's grace that he speaks about, through faith which is to say by means of believing not merely with intellectual ascent but with living obedient belief that is like Abraham's belief which was proved by what he did (James 2:14-26), and this kind of faith works the good works that God foreordained for his people to do. There's no divorce between faith and good works in Paul's teaching nor in James' either. If you're trying to divorce faith from good works then you will fail.

Now, why did you ignore what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46? and what Pater wrote in 1 Peter 1:17?

If you judge by the fruit, good works mark out who is saved. But these come from a born again heart motivated by love.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Respectfully, there is very little here that accurately describes the COC or it's primary doctrinal positions. I'm sorry your experience left you with this impression.

Do you have any documentation or links to show their viewpoint is incorrect?

 

[GingerBeer]

If you judge by the fruit, good works mark out who is saved. But these come from a born again heart motivated by love.

You've sidestepped Matthew 25:31-46 again and 1 Peter 1:17.

 

[Dave L]

You've sidestepped Matthew 25:31-46 again and 1 Peter 1:17.

Works are the proof of salvation, not the means.

 

[GingerBeer]

Works are the proof of salvation, not the means.

That's just sidestepping what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46 and what Peter says in 1 Peter 1:17.

 

[Dave L]

That's just sidestepping what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46 and what Peter says in 1 Peter 1:17.

How so? Give your views and I'll share mine.

 

[Southernscotty]

Please forgive my ignorance, and perhaps my repetitiveness if this question has already been asked and answered (I can't read through the entire thread at present due to only having a small amount of time at hand) but by church of Christ do you mean all believers of Christ who therefore constitute his church, or specifically the sect / denomination the Church of Christ? And if the latter, is the Church of Christ the same as the International Church of Christ?

They are Church of Christ members. The ONE church as they say. I am speaking them as a denomination which the refute

 

[anna ~ grace]

They are Church of Christ members. The ONE church as they say. I am speaking them as a denomination which the refute

There may be no way to talk to these people, Scott.

 

[GingerBeer]

How so? Give your views and I'll share mine.

God judges each one according to what he has done, Rev 22:12. See also 2Cor 5:10. The meaning is: “You worship a God who will judge every person according to his real character, and you should therefore lead such lives as he can approve.”

And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.
1 Peter 1:17

PS: your unwillingness to state your views until after you've seen mine makes me think that you may be unwilling to stand up for what you claim to believe.

 

[Southernscotty]

Ok. I can accept a description of Acts as a book of transition. It does outline the establishment and growth of the NT church, the transition from old covenant to new. I may be slow on the uptake here but I’m still struggling to understand the point of this line of discussion. It is primarily where we find how people became Christians in the early church. What am I missing Scotty?

Friend if you accept my view of dispensation and Acts as transitional then you will see that we are indeed saved by grace through faith and nothing else is needed.
Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the new covenant once we accept Him out of a pepent heart, Works will come like a fish breathing underwater, They spring forth out of the love of a circumcised heart

 

[Southernscotty]

Writing instead of talking can be vey helpful. One of my kids and I used to text each from opposite ends of the house when we were too mad to talk face to face. LOL

Maybe Scotty should invite them to participate in this thread.
.

They will not do this. Lol They are set on converting me alone right now.
I have ask if I could have another minister come visit to help me and they were very negative about it so I dropped it and have been going it alone.

 

[Southernscotty]

I have been looking lately at how works are a part of Salvation. It seems abundantly clear that works are required. Yet faith alone seems to be required at other places. This would lead me to believe, with some consternation, that works are a necessity of faith. I apologize, I do not have references at this time. As to the true church, depending on the person, a Catholic or Orthodox would also say you are not a part of the true church as well, to name a couple that I know. I would say not to worry about that. Perhaps this is a good opportunity to set up some boundaries, Lord have mercy, and stick to your guns, maybe research it a bit better for your own sake, maybe theirs' too.

To me and my way of reading scripture is that good fruit comes from a good tree, So out of a saved heart good things happen. "works" They seem exclusively mutual

 

[Dave L]

God judges each one according to what he has done, Rev 22:12. See also 2Cor 5:10. The meaning is: “You worship a God who will judge every person according to his real character, and you should therefore lead such lives as he can approve.”

And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.
1 Peter 1:17

And without holiness none shall see the Lord. So works are the proof of holiness. Not the means of salvation.

Acting like a Christian does not make you one. But if you are a Christian, you will act like one.

 

[Deborah D]

They will not do this. Lol They are set on converting me alone right now.
I have ask if I could have another minister come visit to help me and they were very negative about it so I dropped it and have been going it alone.

Well....I think I would let them know that they don't get to set the terms for meeting. Personally, I would tell them my conditions for meeting again, and they can take it or leave it. I really don't understand why you and your friend can't just discuss this without some heavyweight doctor involved. I guess it may come down to being firm with your friend about this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They are Church of Christ members. The ONE church as they say. I am speaking them as a denomination which the refute

My experience with the church of Christ was strange. I went to two Bible study meet ups. The first time was just not a good fit because the whole group was older than my wife and I. The music was also done in an older style that was hard for my wife and I to relate to. It was a little too slow and dry for us (Seeing we like music like: Lincoln Brewser, Kristian Stanfill, Chris Tomlin, etc). They were nice, but we did not feel drawn to go back.

But the second meet up at another Bible study meet up in another city (a year or so later) was very strange. We went to a person's house to have fellowship, but we did not speak about the Bible. We talked about worldly things (like what is your restaurant?) and prayed for people with physical problems. There was no focus on praying for the salvation of souls. They were heavily concerned about us eating food in this meeting, as well. It was all physical. Needless to say that was not what my wife and I wanted in a Christian gathering. We hungered to talk about God's Word and to share how we can deepen our relationship with Christ in obeying Him.

I was considering in gong back to see if they would change, but then I had decided to watch the Pastor's audio sermons on the website before doing so. The problem is that the Pastor was doing a whole set of sermons on the enemy. The way he spoke in his one sermon (disturbed me greatly). He was giving too much power or focus to the enemy. He was not focusing on Jesus Christ as the thrust of his speech to overcome sin and darkness and the enemy. Paul says "Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth." (Colossians 3:2). Paul also says, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things arepure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." (Philippians 4:8). Paul did not say to set our thoughts on the things of darkness. I felt almost a darkness as I was listening to his sermon and I had to stop listening.

Granted, this does not mean all churches in the Church of Christ organization are may be like that, but I believe GOD led me to that situation or experience to steer clear of them for good.

 

[GingerBeer]

And without holiness none shall see the Lord. So works are the proof of holiness. Not the means of salvation.

Acting like a Christian does not make you one. But if you are a Christian, you will act like one.

You really don't get it do you?

And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.1 Peter 1:17

For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. 2 Corinthians 5:10

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.Revelation 22:12

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-46

What people do matters. No word games will make that change. Pretending that you're saying something profound when you play around with "which came first" is just a way to deny what scripture says. People face judgement for what they do. Good and bad people, saved and not saved people. They all will answer for what they do.

The CoC may be all wrong about salvation - I think that probably are all wrong about it - but the truth is that what a Christian does matters. There's no use pretending otherwise. Your responses give the message that you are more concerned with protecting a doctrine than with what the scriptures say.

 

[Southernscotty]

Well....I think I would let them know that they don't get to set the terms for meeting. Personally, I would tell them my conditions for meeting again, and they can take it or leave it. I really don't understand why you and your friend can't just discuss this without some heavyweight doctor involved. I guess it may come down to being firm with your friend about this.

Yes I agree and I am going to talk to him later and discuss dropping all of it. I am exhausted and just don't see the same way doctrinally. Hopefully this will end it all on good terms and he will accept my "heretical views" Lol