I keep being told that God objects to abortion...

[bekkilyn]

are you pro life? do you know when life actually begins in the womb?

Here is a passage from the Book of Exodus, which, I believe can be used for abortion

"22“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out (Either a live birth or a miscarriage), but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23But if there is harm (fatality), then you shall pay life for life" (chapter 21)

If, in the case of a "miscarriage", or "premature birth", due to an "accident (unintentional)" caused by the pregnant woman being hurt, the offenders were punished; or, in the worse case, their was a "fatality", and the unborn child dies, and "life for life" was the punishment. If this is the requirement for this accidential case, surely in the case of a "wilful, predetermined" abortion, there must be a higher penalty.

You are making the same assumption as another person did above with that verse. You are *thinking* that it *could* be used for abortion when it is not describing abortion at all, but of a particular legal situation involving compensation for a man's property. Had abortion been the obsession back then that it seems to be today, it would have been clearly spelled out in scripture, but it wasn't.

Yes, I am pro-life and also pro-choice. Quantity of life must take into account quality of life.

I work with wildlife and so have been very close to the cycles of life and death. In this conversation, I am reminded of those people who come up to me and proudly speak about how they rescued a squirrel or some other creature from a hawk who was about to eat it. They sincerely believed they were doing the right thing because they were only focused on the terrible death the squirrel would experience in the clutches of the hawk, but they were not at all considering how they were robbing that hawk of its life by taking away its sustenance. By rescuing the squirrel, they were harming the hawk.

God has a very special relationship with the woman. Within her he places the clay that can be formed into a person and asks her if she is willing to co-create this life with him. It's the potential of becoming a person, of having a soul, but is at that point only the clay, the vessel.

Now after the fall, this clay became corrupted with sin just as all things in creation on earth, but God in his mercy did not take away this special relationship with the woman for the opportunity to co-create life, to help form the clay into a person.

But by putting the clay into the woman versus a physical object or some other way, by giving her the choice to say "yes," he also provided her with the choice to say, "no." God is the artist, the creator, who started the project, but not all projects are completed and the clay must be re-used and re-formed elsewhere.

When a woman chooses "no," she loses the opportunity that God gave to her, and a consequence may be that she has no further opportunity, or that she has lost the special opportunity to bond with the person that may have come from that clay. That opportunity may very well go to another woman instead.

By attempting to rob the woman of her choice to say "yes" to God in this way is similar to robbing the hawk, and similar to how we within religion rob people of their choices to say "yes" to God through such things as inquisitions and forced conversions. Humans want to dominate and control life as we often interpret God's words of "dominion" but what it really means is good stewardship, and that's where we fail the most.

 

[bekkilyn]

Hello again Bekkilyn, I don't have the time to properly reply to you right now, but I will make a point or two for now (until I'm able to get back to you about the rest). Just so we'll have it to refer to, here is the commentary that you posited for us from the NRSV Study Bible.

There are two possible understandings of this verse, both having to do with who sustains serious injury—the fetus or the mother. Ancient Near Eastern parallels to this law suggest the mother is in view. Four other law codes address the issue of a man’s striking a pregnant woman and causing her to miscarry. All stipulate monetary penalties that the assailant must pay in order to compensate the family for the loss of the child. Three of these codes go on to consider what to do if the woman is killed by the blow. In two, the man who struck the blow is to be killed. In another, the daughter of the man is killed, since the law assumes that he struck the pregnant daughter of another man. Only once is the death of the fetus linked to a death penalty: If the husband of the victimized woman has no sons and the fetus is male, the perpetrator is to be killed. In light of the provisions in these other codes, it seems likely that this law in Exodus follows their general pattern. The law calls for a fine in this verse, probably as compensation for the fetus. It then addresses possible “serious injury” to the woman. If she dies, the perpetrator dies—“life for life” (v. 23). Otherwise, the perpetrator will suffer a punishment similar to that inflicted on the woman (vv. 24–25).
​

The RSV/NRSV are guilty of a "miscarriage of translation" (pun definitely intended ) in Exodus 21:22, because the death of the child is assumed by their (what I believe to be errant) translation of "yatsaʾ" (וְיָצְאוּ) as "miscarriage" (which would be handy indeed from the pro-abortion POV because it would change the meaning of the rest of the passage to favor that position).

As for the other four law codes that were mentioned, I wish the NRSV Study Bible told us which ones they were referring to (though I do not doubt that what they say is true of them .. I suspect, for instance, that one of the four is the Babylonian Talmud which does speak of financial compensation for the death of an unborn child). Of course, man-made codes or law, while often interesting and informative, are not what we use to determine the meaning of a passage from the Bible

More tomorrow, hopefully and Dv (I will have to see how much time is left after we take our granddaughter back home).

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - as long as we are going with non-Biblical works, here's something that is interesting from a 1st Century Christian source, just FYI.

2. "Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods". ~The Didache (AD 70) "The Lord's teaching to the heathen by the Twelve Apostles", Section II/Part 2.
.​

We could continue to go back and forth on this one, pulling out various opinions from various sources and cherry-picking scripture that *might* seem to have some reference somewhere in it that *could* be used to make some point concerning abortion, but the actual facts is that scripture doesn't at all specify abortion anywhere in it. If abortion were a concern in scripture, it would have been clearly referenced, but it wasn't.

It wasn't that abortion didn't exist back then. It did. Women have always utilized many different ways to end their pregnancies, but the fact that it's not brought up even once in scripture is very, very telling.

21st century Christians would be far better off putting focus on promoting the good news of the resurrection and what that means for all creation, rather than trying to be the world's morality police, which is not what we are commissioned to do.

 

[Der Alte]

Let us suppose God permitted the infants and children of the pagan nations to live He commanded Israel to destroy. Who would raise those children, the Israelites? How would those children, when grown, feel about the people who slaughtered their entire families?

 

[Strong in Him]

Infanticide is infanticide.

If God allows it even once it means that there is no absolute prohibition against it.

There is a difference between God saying, doing or initiating something, and someone saying "I am going to make the choice, myself, to kill my baby."

If someone prays for an illness to go and it does, what does it matter if it was a Christian who prayed or a white witch who cast a spell? Healing is healing right; what matter if it comes from the Lord or the devil?

 

[Semper-Fi]

Well considering that God doesn't address abortion anywhere in the bible.....

Yes God objects to abortion

“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life”
(Exodus 21:22-23; New King James Version).

In other words, if there was no injury caused to the infant,
the perpetrator had only to pay damages because of whatever
inconvenience or hardship might have been imposed on the parents.

However, if his actions caused the unborn child to die,
then he was sentenced to death! Clearly, God considers
the life of an unborn child here equal to that of an adult.
-

Jacob moved his family to Egypt. The names of
those who went are recorded in Genesis 46.

The Bible says that the sons and daughters (plural)
who descended from Jacob’s first wife Leah, and who
made it to Egypt, numbered 33 (Genesis 46:15).

Yet there are only 32 names given for those who went
and only one of them is a daughter.

Why the discrepancy?
The answer is found in the book of Numbers.

One of Leah’s sons, Levi, had a daughter that was
not listed, who was born in Egypt (Numbers 26:59).

58These are the families of the Levites: the family of the Libnites, the family of the Hebronites, the family of the Mahlites, the family of the Mushites, the family of the Korathites. And Kohath begat Amram.

59And the name of Amram's wife was Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, whom her mother bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister.

Levi’s wife was pregnant at the time of the journey and
the child wasn’t named yet because she hadn’t been born.

Nevertheless, God made sure she was counted as
one of the persons who made the journey!

This child became the mother of the man God
would use to bring Israel out of Egypt— Moses!
-

Ecclesiastes 11:5: “As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything”

God says we don’t know how, but we know when a child
receives the human spirit: when it’s in the womb!

To kill that child in the womb is murder.

 

[bekkilyn]

I think one of the messages of the descriptions of some of those events in the OT is that life is complicated and can't just be boiled down into a black and white sort of thing. Even the commandment "thou shalt not murder" can be very based on what is culturally appropriate at the time, even up to and including today.

But I think that Jesus' clarification is important. His message is not about the legalism but about what comes from a person's heart, and that's where these commandments are most relevant today, the post-resurrection time when we are not under the bondage of law but under the new covenant of grace. In this time of grace, even an emotion such as unjustified anger is murder and the point is to show us our sin.

We may condemn people for choosing an abortion or for choosing to assist in a mercy-killing to help alleviate someone's pain, or perhaps even being the executioner in the death penalty, and many other *physical* (and often legal depending on culture and time periodd) ways that human life can be ended BUT just like those who were throwing stones at the adulterous woman, we are all guilty. We are all murderers, and it shows us how much we need God's free gift of grace. All of us.

That's the message of scripture and where our focus as Christ-followers needs to be.

 

[bekkilyn]

Yes God objects to abortion

“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life”
(Exodus 21:22-23; New King James Version).

In other words, if there was no injury caused to the infant,
the perpetrator had only to pay damages because of whatever
inconvenience or hardship might have been imposed on the parents.

However, if his actions caused the unborn child to die,
then he was sentenced to death! Clearly, God considers
the life of an unborn child here equal to that of an adult.
-

Jacob moved his family to Egypt. The names of
those who went are recorded in Genesis 46.

The Bible says that the sons and daughters (plural)
who descended from Jacob’s first wife Leah, and who
made it to Egypt, numbered 33 (Genesis 46:15).

Yet there are only 32 names given for those who went
and only one of them is a daughter.

Why the discrepancy?
The answer is found in the book of Numbers.

One of Leah’s sons, Levi, had a daughter that was
not listed, who was born in Egypt (Numbers 26:59).

58These are the families of the Levites: the family of the Libnites, the family of the Hebronites, the family of the Mahlites, the family of the Mushites, the family of the Korathites. And Kohath begat Amram.

59And the name of Amram's wife was Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, whom her mother bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister.

Levi’s wife was pregnant at the time of the journey and
the child wasn’t named yet because she hadn’t been born.

Nevertheless, God made sure she was counted as
one of the persons who made the journey!

This child became the mother of the man God
would use to bring Israel out of Egypt— Moses!
-

Ecclesiastes 11:5: “As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything”

God says we don’t know how, but we know when a child
receives the human spirit: when it’s in the womb!

To kill that child in the womb is murder.

First, you are assuming that the passage in Exodus is talking about the fetus vs. the woman when it's not necessarily the case. Second, the passage has nothing whatsoever to do with abortion, but about compensating a man for the loss of his property. Had abortion been of interest in scripture, it would have been clearly stated and not left for people in the 21st century to misapply the verses into an entirely different context.

Obviously the physical vessal of Leah's daughter made the trip and didn't just teleport over to her later after birth. Again, nothing whatseover to do with abortion.

Third, until you are able to see past the squirrel in relation to human life and life in general, a true conversation on the topic really isn't possible and is why I usually avoid taking part in these abortion threads.

The "discussion" usually boils down to "the bible says what I think it says and so you are wrong and I am right and it's what God thinks too because that's what I think." It generally goes no deeper than that and therefore has little overall value.

 

[Inkfingers]

There is a difference between God saying, doing or initiating something, and someone saying "I am going to make the choice, myself, to kill my baby."

If someone prays for an illness to go and it does, what does it matter if it was a Christian who prayed or a white witch who cast a spell? Healing is healing right; what matter if it comes from the Lord or the devil?

That's not the point.

The point is that God does not hate infanticide and makes no prohibition on it; BECAUSE He himself told Joshua to engage in it.

THAT is the point. The principle is established in the OT that infanticide is not always a bad thing.

 

[HIM]

Erm, yes we do. Christians have taken many lives in war or self-defence.

The point is that He sanctioned Infanticide, so there are no grounds for an outright ban on abortion.

Funny that you object to God killing those whom He had killed.

 

[Semper-Fi]

First, you are assuming ...

Maybe it is you that have that verse wrong,
like several others have also said here.

The life for life here was talking about if the child died,
The person that caused it was sentenced to death,
just like if it was a person outside of the womb.

Yes I firmly believe God does not condone abortion,
which is [murder of a fetus]. The Life of a person
begins at conception, not when born.

Obviously the physical vessal of Leah's daughter made the trip and didn't just teleport over to her later after birth. Again, nothing whatseover to do with abortion.

A child in the womb, not born yet, was counted just like
all the other live people that made the journey.

This child was called a person in the womb.
To abort this child would be just like if you
killed a person here outside of the womb.

again God made sure she[a fetus] was counted as one
of the [person]s who made the journey to Egypt.
-

Seems you did not address the last verse that
says the spirit of a person is given in the womb.

What about God knowing Jeremiah in the womb ?

 

[Semper-Fi]

... or perhaps even being the executioner in the death penalty,
and many other *physical* (and often legal depending on culture
and time period) ways that human life can be ended .

In the old test., [and] backed-up by the new testament,
the death penalty is called for the enforcement for
someone who commits' murder.

 

[Inkfingers]

Funny that you object to God killing those whom He had killed.

I'm not objecting at all.

Where exactly do you think that I have objected?

 

[Semper-Fi]

Murder requires the killing of another *person*.
A fertilized egg, as one example, is not a person.

The growth and development of a baby in the womb
is probably the most awesome and breathtaking marvel
of Gods physical creation. Please watch a video for proof.
www.justthefacts.org:

Also, women typically do not harbor malice towards the unborn, but simply wish to end the pregnancy, preferably sooner than later.

This is Just the most calloused form of [birth control].
You know The unborn child feels pain as Early as 12 Weeks?

Some "Researchers agree “that if fetal pain is likely then
that has ethical and clinical significance independent of
any views on the morality of abortion per se.”

The Apostle Paul told Timothy that “in the last days
perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers
of their own selves [very selfish and self-centered] …
disobedient to parents … Without natural affection …
incontinent [without self-control], fierce [or brutal] …
lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God” (2 Timothy 3:1-4).

These are the very attitudes that lead to illicit sex,
unwanted babies and brutal abortions—all signs that
confirm we are living in the last days.

God had laws about murders already, he also added
about hurting a woman's child [while in the womb].

What about Laws on Fetal Homicide and Penalty?
State Laws on Fetal Homicide and Penalty-enhancement for Crimes Against Pregnant Women
-

The biologists and geneticists are the ones
who ought to know.

“By all criteria of modern molecular biology,
life is present from the moment of conception.”

“I am no more prepared to say these early stages
[in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than
I would be to say the child prior to the dramatic effects
of puberty … is not a human being. This is human life at
every stage albeit incomplete until late adolescence.”

“each individual has a very neat beginning:
the moment of its conception.”

“The beginning of a single human life is from a
biological point of view a simple and straight
forward matter—the beginning is conception.”
-

The vast majority of abortions—about 95 percent—are
induced as a callous means of birth control!



Ezekiel 20:26 (KJV)
And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through
the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate,
to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.

 

[Strong in Him]

The point is that God does not hate infanticide and makes no prohibition on it; BECAUSE He himself told Joshua to engage in it.

So you believe in a God who is love, light perfect and better than an earthly Father yet who thinks it's ok for people to kill babies?
Joshua was in the OT. That's what people did in those days; killed their, and God's, enemies

That's not the point.
THAT is the point. The principle is established in the OT that infanticide is not always a bad thing.

Killing, torturing or oppressing those who are weak, vulnerable and have no voice is a bad thing, and God is on the side of the oppressed, not the oppressor. One of the commandments is "you shall not kill". If God said in the OT that his enemies deserved death; that's how it was. God is God.
But someone going into an abortion clinic and killing their baby, for what may be social reasons or for convenience, is not the same.

It may sound from this as though I'm in favour of abortion; I'm not.
Maybe ironically, I do feel there are some circumstances where an abortion may be the lesser of two evils. I also believe that if a woman doesn't know the Lord, doesn't know, believe or care that everyone is made in his image, or doesn't care, then it's wrong to force our beliefs onto her and insist that she must live by a standard that she doesn't believe in. When I was a student nurse, a fellow student became pregnant, was nervous about telling me she had had an abortion, expected me to condemn her and was surprised when I didn't. The fact was that if I hadn't believed in God and didn't think sex before marriage was wrong, if I'd had a boyfriend who had been sweetness and light but who hit me as soon as we got engaged, and if I'd been a teenager about to qualify as a nurse, I probably would have done the same as her.
But that doesn't mean that I think God looks down on us and says "that's fine; go ahead, I don't care about unborn children."

 

[Inkfingers]

So you believe in a God who is love, light perfect and better than an earthly Father yet who thinks it's ok for people to kill babies?
Joshua was in the OT.

So was God...

 

[Mink61]

That's not the point.

The point is that God does not hate infanticide and makes no prohibition on it; BECAUSE He himself told Joshua to engage in it.

THAT is the point. The principle is established in the OT that infanticide is not always a bad thing.

Wait a minute...

God also said, "I HATE divorce", yet He divorced himself from Israel. It doesn't NOT mean that He's some kind of liar, and that he must not "hate" divorce (since He Himself did it), and that if divorce is o.k. in God's eyes, it should be o.k. for US.

And likewise, just because God commanded Joshua to slay EVERYONE, including women and children (probably pregnant women, too), doesn't mean that God "approved" of all kinds of infanticide across the board.

God has something we don't have; foreknowledge. God knew if those children were going to grow up and become even MORE wicked than their parents.

Since God is The Creator of Life, He has the Ultimate Say over it. God is the Ultimate Just Judge. He is the ONLY one who gets to say who lives, who dies, who goes to heaven, who goes to hell and WHEN. We don't get to make that decision because we DON'T KNOW if the fetus we're killing was supposed to be the next great Evangelist or another Stalin. We don't have God's foreknowledge and wisdom.

As a parent, you are allowed to do things that you wouldn't allow your child to do. You wouldn't allow your 5 year old to drive a car, even though YOU drive a car. The child doesn't have your knowledge and skill to drive a car.

Same way with God. God is our heavenly parent and we are His 'children'. God is allowed to kill because He has certain knowledge that we don't have. It's not 'wrong' for God to kill. It is not "murder". We define murder as the "unjustified killing of a human being". If God kills, it is justified. God doesn't kill for no reason. You may not like His reason(s) or even approve of His reason(s), but that doesn't matter. Like I said earlier, you don't have the benefit of seeing into the future, like God has.

God commanded Joshua to do this. Read that sentence again for understanding: GOD commanded... In other words, Joshua didn't decide to slay everyone. GOD told him to. But when was the last time you ever heard of a woman claiming that GOD told her to have an abortion? I'm guessing the answer is "never".

The woman who has an abortion is playing God.

​

 

[Semper-Fi]

God would have drove them away Himself,
But Israel was a stubborn bunch
and had to do it the hard way.


28And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite,
the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.
29I will not drive them out from before thee in one year;
lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee.

30By little and little I will drive them out from before thee,
until thou be increased, and inherit the land.

 

[Hazelelponi]

...but then I read Deuteronomy 2:33-34 and see that He sanctioned infanticide without any problem.

How do people reconcile those two stances?

If you kill, as a national army, all the living relatives of a child, then that child grows up and finds out what do you have?

A very angry individual, with the power to find others like him to then war against you - most especially in these tribalist societies.

Therefore, in only killing the adults all you do is stave off war for a few years... and end up with something worse in the end.

God was protecting the lineage that would bring forth His only Son, who would save all nations. God at the time determined this was for His own purpose.

Situation is different with abortion. With abortion your protecting what, a woman's right to murder so she can have more material goods? Is that worth more than her soul?

Is that on equal footing to the souls of all the Gentiles ever saved in the last 2000 years?

 

[Hazelelponi]

God also said, "I HATE divorce", yet He divorced himself from Israel. I

Off topic, but Jesus is [the corporate head of] Israel... not divorced.

Might like to read "Jesus and Israel; One Covanent or Two?" by David Holwerda

 

[Scott Husted]

...but then I read Deuteronomy 2:33-34 and see that He sanctioned infanticide without any problem.

How do people reconcile those two stances?

The Bible is a perception in the making ...