I find it funny

[Awesomegirl]

Haha playing dumb is a sign I need to leave this argument because I am not going to stick around if that is going to be your case. I have dealt with the issues, and you said "well your happy now because things are going good in your life", you did say that, but it hasn't always been peachy for me and i am happy and grateful that is going good for me, I have felt hollow before, i was greatly depressed after Emily's suicide, but I looked into myself and cherished the time I had with her and I am grateful that I once had her for a friend, You IMPLIED that I had not felt hollow or in pain before, but you know that following a religion or believing in something that is unknown is not the only way to get through life's hardships, Yes it worked for you, you know why because it gave you hope and happiness when times were rough, but you cannot say that other beliefs and practices can give one hope and fill that void that lingers due to life's pain. And I have too many friends and family that live meaningful lives with out your religion. Were the natives Americans empty and hollow inside because they didn't have jesus? Nope they saw the human species as part of nature not above and it made them happy and prosperous due to the fact that they were one with nature. You can look at many of histories thriving civilizations that were full of meaning, take the Greeks for example, they were the pioneers of philosophy that gave mankind a road map which to live. Many people, religions, and beliefs can inspire hope and meaning and to say that only your person or religion can give life meaning is very closed minded to the rest of the world.

 

[Awesomegirl]

believing in something you cannot prove doesn't fix the worlds problems! You don't like the fact that not enough money goes to the poor? well get off your bottom and give some charity or become a politician and do something about it!, don't moan about it and expect a things to change whist doing nothing. The FACT is I am honest and you are not, I have accepted that this might be my only life and I plan on doing something while I am here. People aren't rejecting god, we feel there is not sufficient evidence for him, no good and evil stereotypes needed. You say "people WANT their tiny 70 years on earth" no people have accepted the fact that it probably is all you are going to get and death should, as it was taught to me, to be natural and accepted as a fact of life. I think that is one of the main problems of christians as children they are never taught to really tackle the issue of death, they are taught that it's not real, they hide from it, that's why religious people are so afraid of it, while people that don't grow up in it have come to accept it and that there is nothing scary about it, what was life like before you were born? that is exactly what non existence will be like. You didn't fear it before you were born. Christians and religious people do not want to accept the fact that their loved ones are gone when they die, they haven't learned and matured in their views of death. I want to return to something you scoffed away earlier "history is written by the conquerers and winners" think about how that relates to what we are talking about, the side that loses never gets portrayed with fairness, the winners and conquerers want to spread their side and glorify it as much as possible, the dead do not get the opportunity to write down how the battle really went, they are left silent. The winners will say that they won fairly while the truth might be they cheated, Hard evidence is what gives us a good picture of the past, fossils, artifacts, and other tangible findings. Now I am not saying that written word is completely inaccurate but to put 100% athourity into such is absurd especially when dealing with supernatural matters. I need to leave I am getting way to worked up and I don't want this to turn ugly which I am afraid that's only where it can lead.

 

[Digit]

Haha playing dumb is a sign I need to leave this argument because I am not going to stick around if that is going to be your case. I have dealt with the issues, and you said "well your happy now because things are going good in your life",

Actually I said:

But anyway, you are happy now and I'm glad, as life is good when things go well.

Which is different, it says I (personally) am glad things are going well (for you), as life is good then (which is a good thing). No one likes to see someone else unhappy, it was a sincere statement of happiness over the fact that things are good. Not, "Things are good now, but just you wait...". I don't make statements like that, as it's not conducive to friendships with people and it definitely doesn't help show them how you hold up Christ-like integrity.

you did say that

No, I really did not.

You IMPLIED that I had not felt hollow or in pain before

I actually didn't, but anyhow I think this is deteriating. Look, I said if things are good for you now, great, as if I rewind my life to when I was 19, things were great for me too. So in that regard I can see and understand how it would be lifewise for you, in addition I didn't care anything about religion back then either and I certainly wasn't a Christian.

but you know that following a religion or believing in something that is unknown is not the only way to get through life's hardships

I didn't say that religion helps you deal with life's hardships, I said it gives you a way out of sin with God and I then went on to explain the various degress of what people call 'good'.

Yes it worked for you, you know why because it gave you hope and happiness when times were rough, but you cannot say that other beliefs and practices can give one hope and fill that void that lingers due to life's pain.

Actually, when I was saved life was pretty good for me, it wasn't out of desperationg to improve my life, it was out of a horrible realisationg that I had been wrong for most of my life about things, and I really desperately needed to set things straight with God.

And I have too many friends and family that live meaningful lives with out your religion. Were the natives Americans empty and hollow inside because they didn't have jesus? Nope they saw the human species as part of nature not above and it made them happy and prosperous due to the fact that they were one with nature. You can look at many of histories thriving civilizations that were full of meaning, take the Greeks for example, they were the pioneers of philosophy that gave mankind a road map which to live. Many people, religions, and beliefs can inspire hope and meaning and to say that only your person or religion can give life meaning is very closed minded to the rest of the world.

You miss the point entirely here, it's not about success at all. God doesn't bring success, He brings an offer of salvation from sin and a gift of life eternal with Him. There can be meaning in murder, it doesn't make it a positive thing. There can be meaning in a film, doesn't mean God isn't alive. These things you are arguing with are all interdependant from God.

Anyhow, I've been here long enough to know where this thread is going. So this is my last reply. I enjoyed talking to you on PM and I enjoyed talking to you here, I'm sorry that we crossed wires and you felt that I implied things about you, that was not my intention regardless of what you believe or feel, and I apologise for any perceived notion of that as it was truly not my intent. I think your paper on Bhuddism will go pretty well, as you are a very bright woman, but good luck on it regardless. >(-_-)<

Cheers!
Digit

 

[Awesomegirl]

No matter how good it sounds, how much you polish it I still can't have belief in a matter I find unknowable, I am going to leave this website because it is a waste of time, you are dealing with emotional matters, which is completely subjective and I want cold hard proof. I am sorry that I have waisted your time. I know I sent you that pm but I still do not believe in it even though that explanation of it is the best for me. I refuse to be dishonest with myself to gain a false sense of security. To you it is not false because you do not perceive it to be false but to me it would always linger in my mind. Agnosticism is the only honest conclusion I can come to, even if that means living without all the answers I am at peace knowing that the big question will be answered one day, and be it another life (I don't believe in Christianity so it is not automatically hell, and if it is well at least I was honest with myself, so be it) or complete non existence which wont be too bad because I have at for most of this infinite universes' been non existent. I can already think of your reply, that you are unhappy with me, I am truly sorry Digit but I still do not find it to be convincing of my support and belief.

 

[Sketcher]

I find it funny how when I explain my reasoning for being agnostic is because I believe matters such as the existence of a god and the origin of our universe are beyond human comprehension and unknowable people tell me that the answer is simple and that God created everything. Well the funny thing is when I ask them questions like who created God or if god is infinite what was he doing before the universe was created I get the answer "well god is beyond human comprehension. Well that's is exactly what i believe but I take it a step further and say the existence of the supernatural is unknowable. Some people can admit to uncertainty in some aspects but if you cross into their no fly zone you get treated like an evil person. It's like they hate it when people challenge their beliefs.

I haven't read the thread, so I don't know if this has been said or not. But for anything to exist, there must be an uncaused cause. We believe that cause is God, who is not just a power, but He also has a mind, a will, and deep interest in us, whom He created.

I don't understand why my beliefs about the universe, or lack thereof, makes it just for people to threaten me with an infinite torture. I didn't grow up in knowing this kind of cruelty but it makes me sad that people would even think about such a horrid idea.

If such a painful fate were real, would you not want the people who knew about it to 1) warn you about it and 2) tell you how to escape it? I'd call that common decency. After all, if someone is about to walk into a very hazardous area unawares, most people would have the good sense to say "Watch out!" This is the same situation, only the stakes are higher.

 

[EternallyPierced]

Have you ever read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel?

 

[EternallyPierced]

If such a painful fate were real, would you not want the people who knew about it to 1) warn you about it and 2) tell you how to escape it? I'd call that common decency. After all, if someone is about to walk into a very hazardous area unawares, most people would have the good sense to say "Watch out!" This is the same situation, only the stakes are higher.

I couldn't have said it better myself

People aren't doing it to be mean or hateful. They do it because they care about you and they are concerned about your future.

Could you imagine the feeling you would have if you knew you had the chance to save someone's life but you didn't? It would be an awful regret you could never fix.

I have a friend that isn't saved. He's about 70 and he took care of my granny for about 30 years until she died. He's like the grandpa I never had. I love him so much. He was always so good to me and my mom and granny. It burdens my heart so badly to know that at any given moment he could die and go to hell. I wish I could make him understand but I can't. What's been revealed to me hasn't been revealed to him yet. So all I can do is pray and hope and wait. Do you see my point? People aren't telling you these things out of cruelty but out of compassion. They care about you and what happens to you. They don't want you to suffer. So please, think about it. You have a loving heavenly father and He's waiting for you with arms wide open.

 

[Digit]

Hi Awesomegirl,

No matter how good it sounds, how much you polish it I still can't have belief in a matter I find unknowable, I am going to leave this website because it is a waste of time, you are dealing with emotional matters, which is completely subjective and I want cold hard proof. I am sorry that I have waisted your time. I know I sent you that pm but I still do not believe in it even though that explanation of it is the best for me. I refuse to be dishonest with myself to gain a false sense of security. To you it is not false because you do not perceive it to be false but to me it would always linger in my mind. Agnosticism is the only honest conclusion I can come to, even if that means living without all the answers I am at peace knowing that the big question will be answered one day, and be it another life (I don't believe in Christianity so it is not automatically hell, and if it is well at least I was honest with myself, so be it) or complete non existence which wont be too bad because I have at for most of this infinite universes' been non existent. I can already think of your reply, that you are unhappy with me, I am truly sorry Digit but I still do not find it to be convincing of my support and belief.

I replied to your PM, and it's ok I do not blame you, hate your or am angry with you at all, as I never expected anything other than a discussion about things, it was just an added bonus it turned out to be a good one.

If you have any questions in the future, just remember we are here and my inbox is always open.

Take care and God bless,
Cheers!
Digit

 

[Awesomegirl]

EternallyPierced, I am not debating whether it sounds good or not, I am debating whether you're hell belief just like your god belief is in any way true. Please read my other post. I have covered why I find Christian Justice to be immoral and wrong in my prior replies so I am not going to start all over again. Yes I have read tons of the "watchmaker tactics" by Christian apologetics and I can easily say that those pre evolutionary claims will fall apart when met with modern evolution theory. Do you really think that your friend deserves to burn in an oven of fire forever for not sharing the same opinion about religion? That my friend is torture, and torture that God allows, for if he created everything and he knows all and is omnipresent, than he allows it to happen. Our presidents and civilized world leaders can agree that torture is a horrible act and should not be allowed by any means. Look at the Guantanamo Bay incident and it's disgusting crimes. How can one be against torture in their everyday life yet still support it in their religion. By your standards Your God is just like Hitler, who burns and tortures those who do not agree and with him. Do you believe the Jews that were burned,tortured, starved, and mutilated in the holocaust are burning again in hell? A one size fits all punishment is not justice and if men can see that than hopefully an all knowing God can. I have read literature from both sides and see good arguments from both sides in the Evolution vs Intelligent Design debate, I lean more towards the Evolution and Atheism side but I still believe that the possibility of a higher power is slightly plausible do to our human comprehension of the universe. If there is a God and he allows torture of that horridness than I would not choose to worship him if he were staring me in the face, I'm sorry but scare tactics are not the best way to spread your ideas.

 

[Harrythepizzaguy]

Humbly and respectfully asking questions and thinking outside the box is a good way to set out on a quest for truth...
but at 19, you might not want to close the door on new ideas just yet like saying that a divine creator is unknowable. The whole idea behind why Jesus came into the world was to make God knowable. When we see someone's suffering and are moved to compassion, and help them--this is knowing God. How would a loving God make Himself knowable? By sending a loving, caring teacher who healed the sick, even raised the dead...?
As far as hell is concerned--this is a very difficult concept, especially at age 19. But you might run across a few people (hopefully not) that might convince you that the only place for them would be a prison of sorts-- and the scary thing about being created is that we can't be uncreated-- and choosing good or evil during our lives effects our "robes" so to speak...do we wear darkness or light?
Don't worry, you're not evil--you wouldn't be interested in all of this if you were...
But, you sound a little like Luke in Star Wars when Yoda warned him that he would confront evil--he said, "I'm not scared..." Yoda replied, "you will be..."
Life has taught me that Yoda was right...
and if we're not scared by the evil in the world, then maybe we're in a fantasy world or denial or something else is wrong...
Don't mean to scare you, but like the flight instructor told Maverick in "Top Gun" about his confidence issue...
"I'm not here to blow sunshine up your (deleted)..."
This world is a cruel, survival of the fittest, dog eat dog world...
best of luck--
the force will be with you...
Harold

 

[EternallyPierced]

Humbly and respectfully asking questions and thinking outside the box is a good way to set out on a quest for truth...
but at 19, you might not want to close the door on new ideas just yet like saying that a divine creator is unknowable. The whole idea behind why Jesus came into the world was to make God knowable. When we see someone's suffering and are moved to compassion, and help them--this is knowing God. How would a loving God make Himself knowable? By sending a loving, caring teacher who healed the sick, even raised the dead...?
As far as hell is concerned--this is a very difficult concept, especially at age 19. But you might run across a few people (hopefully not) that might convince you that the only place for them would be a prison of sorts-- and the scary thing about being created is that we can't be uncreated-- and choosing good or evil during our lives effects our "robes" so to speak...do we wear darkness or light?
Don't worry, you're not evil--you wouldn't be interested in all of this if you were...
But, you sound a little like Luke in Star Wars when Yoda warned him that he would confront evil--he said, "I'm not scared..." Yoda replied, "you will be..."
Life has taught me that Yoda was right...
and if we're not scared by the evil in the world, then maybe we're in a fantasy world or denial or something else is wrong...
Don't mean to scare you, but like the flight instructor told Maverick in "Top Gun" about his confidence issue...
"I'm not here to blow sunshine up your (deleted)..."
This world is a cruel, survival of the fittest, dog eat dog world...
best of luck--
the force will be with you...
Harold

If you have Jesus, you have no reason to fear (...Greater is He that is in me that he that is in the world. John 4:4)

 

[Awesomegirl]

well I was a christian for many years, not once did I feel like I knew god

 

[Key]

Well I am a late comer here, so I'll just look at what you have given, I only skimmed the whole of what was said, so, forgive me if I just rehash a bit.

Allow me a few moments to entertain a few things.

The first one is, God will not "torture you" any more then you can torture yourself, when you think about it. God only gives people what they have sought after. If we seek eternal life, and to be with God, then we are given eternal life with God. If we reject God, and want nothing to do with him, God returns that to us, and rejects us, and has nothing to do with us. This, Hell, as we call it, is nothing more then not making it to Heaven. That very well might be torture, to anyone, to know that the Gates of Heaven were open to them, and they refused it. This they are left to the void, with out God or any of Gods creation to cradle them.

Hope this helps.

God Bless

Key

 

[tapero]

well I was a christian for many years, not once did I feel like I knew god

Hi Awesomegirl,

Many come to Christ, and do not recieve discipling, nor get to understanding God's word, or perhaps in a church which helps in no way as well.

Others have much opporunity; it all depends, when one comes to Christ and their exposure and understanding and learning.

Since you said above, you felt like you didn't know God, it reveals then that you didn't perhaps read the word or if you did, you didn't grasp it. I've been a Christian 20 years and I know who God is, in as much as I understand about him from the bible, and there is much I don't know.

And of course you know, feelings have nothng to do with knowing God. We don't get feelings such as I mean, same as we would from a loved one. We can get feelings of peace, joy, and such which come from our walk with God.

We can get feelings of burning desire to know Gods word. But we don't get feelings per se meaning as one would in a relationship where one loves someone.

As we grow in Christ, we grow to love God. Of course, if had no love growing up, will be harder to get to that point, and depending on how bad things were from past experiences, love may be very difficult to know that He loves us, which is a truth, so may be hard to grasp such, as well as hard to love God, especially if never had love from others (as if were abused etc, or enviornmental factors), and so actaully tho, our love for God is quite small compared to what it can be.

We will grow in love with God all our lives, step forward, step back, however step back does not mean love God less at all, means we fail growing in God all the time such i meant step forward and back.

And in heaven, we will continue to grow in that love as we will forever be getting to know him more and he is infinite in his love and we won't have the hindrences we have here on earth. God says love the Lord your God, but hon, he knows our hearts and he knows what is difficult for us.

I love God, but due to way I was exposed to with no love from others growing up, and no father basically it doesn't come as easy to me as does to others. Regardless of that though, I do know God loves me very much so, and I also love God, even though it doesn't impact same way as would someone who was raised in a loving environment.

It's all okay, it's a process.

A good church would be the place if wish to get to know God, a Christ centered church, and without that, reading the bible and learning about God.

Many are limited in our knowledge of knowing God. It all depends on our walk, etc.

The closer we walk with God, that is reading the bible, praying, music, and if can go to church or a bible study, these help us in our walk with God.

But reading and music and praying are what anyone can do without leaving home and get to know God better.

I say music, because it moves me very much, due to type I listen to. Christian music is very moving for all of us.

Im sorry, I didn't write a good post here really..

Just wanted to let you know that due to your statement above, more than likely hon, you weren't exposed to much that occurs (tho of course not all) to others, bible, praying, church, bible studies etc, a woman helping you, answering your questions about God.

And you had bad experienes with Christians as well, and while no man should,many do attribute to God what a Christians says and does, which is in no way a picture of who God is, unless they are speaking truths and loving etc, as Jesus taught us.

So, we never look at man to see what God is like, as all men fail. We never put any man on a pedestal, only Christ, and look to Him for all things.

blessings.
tapero

 

[Awesomegirl]

Thanks tapero, I'm still studying the religions and philosophy's of the world. I think one day I will find something that radiates truth to me.

 

[EternallyPierced]

Thanks tapero, I'm still studying the religions and philosophy's of the world. I think one day I will find something that radiates truth to me.

The sun (Son) radiates

 

[Key]

Thanks tapero, I'm still studying the religions and philosophy's of the world. I think one day I will find something that radiates truth to me.

Boy do I know that feeling. It seems like everyone is saying the same thing, don't it. Like everyone is reading from the same script sometimes, and it just seems like a mess or a jumble of who can "win the most" for their "Church" or what have you.

I can say, that one thing always remains, it is that the truth is a powerful thing, and when we seek it, it can seem so elusive, like trying to nail jell-o to a wall.

But once we find it, once we realize it, it seems as if it has been always so obvious, that we could even find humor in the fact that it seemed so hard the first time.

But as you seek, allow me to give you something to ponder. Could we impress a divine being, with simply being "good"?

I hope this helps.

God Bless

Key

 

[whatfor]

Well this thread has taken a long time to read, but it was worth the time.
I wish I could help you find the answers but I can't.

I only have the same evidence [or lack of] as everyone else.

I had more to say, buy I don't want to push my veiws on you.