I find it funny

[tapero]

Hey Awesomegirl,

You aren't being a jerk, don't be silly. Understand the majority of people we get here in outreach are those who have come across something that they feel is a magic-bullet to Christianity. The pose the question, we reply with the same answer we always do, and then I imagine one of two things happens. 1) They are satisfied and leave. 2) They are not satisfied and debate - ie. they already have an answer they like, and don't want to give it up. For example, the Bible advocates rape of virgins or something along those lines. Seriously, you field the same question a hundred times and then take a look at your replies and note how at the start, it's all, "Hey howya doing! ... etc" and to the end it's, "This is wrong... ". I don't like to admit it, but it happens to the best of us. Well, Tapero seems to always have a sunny disposition, but I think she's an alien myself.

Cheers!
Digit

hehe, made me smile and feel joy inside, but i have to fess up, not a sunny disposition, just a very careful poster...indeed, as was on staff and when on staff one doesn't want to get reported..hehe

but thank you, that was very sweet of you to say.

God bless you brother,
tapero

 

[Awesomegirl]

well im back on but i don't know what more to say than what i have already said. I just don't feel right subconsciously taking a firm stance on a matter that i find non comprehensive and unknowable, also my heart tells me that the christian system of judgment isn't right and fair. I cant stand behind something that I do not see the value of the belief. I don't think you guys are bad people for having the beliefs you have, same way that I have republican friends and I am a democrat, I just disagree but I do it in a peaceful manner. I hope none of you get the feeling I hate you guys or your beliefs because i don't.

 

[Digit]

Hey Awesomegirl

well im back on but i don't know what more to say than what i have already said. I just don't feel right subconsciously taking a firm stance on a matter that i find non comprehensive and unknowable,

The rest of what you say is quite understandable. It's this part that jumps out at me. This is where us Christians fall down when talking to Atheists, which is that they require hard proof. We do not. We have instead adopted something on faith. The definition of faith is something that is not necessarily able to be proven. The reason we have done this, is because after searching (you know, the Christian seek or whatever people are calling it now) we have come to a conclusion. That conclusion is that whilst we don't understand some things, and whilst others seem impossible to us, there is enough that speaks to us, which we find to be true. Based on this, we have reason to believe that the things which we doubt and find hard to believe, may also be true.

Now, as you say, we do not know for sure. I don't think any Christian does, unless they have a very unique or powerful experience. Also, to not doubt now, is not to say we will never doubt in the future. My mother who has been a Christian for many a year now, doubted her faith just recently, at the age of 61. Faith is the key word, it's the hope for something better, it's the thing that motivates us to do better, to rise above what we are, what we are happy with and to strive to become more, even when we don't want to. It's what makes us stop and do something to change the world, when the rest pass on by. It's what keeps us grounded when others are swept away.

It may seem like flowery talk to you, but it's the very real core that drives us. It's Christianity's engine.

It's understanding that engine which makes us who we are, and makes us scratch our heads and wonder why, when someone like you for example, says that it's unknowable. You can't form a complete picture, but you can make one that tells you a lot of what you need to know. The last point I will make, is that in a hundrend bajillion years, I would never have thought I would be a Christian. Other Christians put me off, to be blunt about it - I thought they were complete idiots. I realise now, that the people I was looking at, quite likely were idiots but that just supports the notion that Christianity is a relationship between you and God.

You.
God.
No one else. You have all the time and resources at your fingertips to find out the unknowable.

Anyhow, hope your paper goes well. You certainly have a lot to go on.

Cheers!
Digit

 

[tapero]

well im back on but i don't know what more to say than what i have already said. I just don't feel right subconsciously taking a firm stance on a matter that i find non comprehensive and unknowable, also my heart tells me that the christian system of judgment isn't right and fair. I cant stand behind something that I do not see the value of the belief. I don't think you guys are bad people for having the beliefs you have, same way that I have republican friends and I am a democrat, I just disagree but I do it in a peaceful manner. I hope none of you get the feeling I hate you guys or your beliefs because i don't.

Oh wow Awesomegirl, no I would never think such. If you and me were coworkers do you think I would dislike you cause you and me had different opinions or beliefs?

Some do of course, but we all work in the world and we all have different beliefs or understandings of things and there's nothing wrong at all with such. Is why we are individuals.

I would just like to say when you say Christian system of judgement? Such doesn't exist unless you're speaking of judgemental Christians (which of course exist.) Only God is the judge and so replacing word Christian system, to God's system is really more accurate, hence your differences are with God, not Christians.

And it's not a system, it's how God has ordained things.

blessings,
tapero

 

[ContentInHim]

well im back on but i don't know what more to say than what i have already said. I just don't feel right subconsciously taking a firm stance on a matter that i find non comprehensive and unknowable, also my heart tells me that the christian system of judgment isn't right and fair. I cant stand behind something that I do not see the value of the belief. I don't think you guys are bad people for having the beliefs you have, same way that I have republican friends and I am a democrat, I just disagree but I do it in a peaceful manner. I hope none of you get the feeling I hate you guys or your beliefs because i don't.

It's not Christianity's system of judgment - it's God's! Big, big difference.

 

[ContentInHim]

AwesomeGirl - pay attention to tapero and Digit - they are awesome posters!

 

[Awesomegirl]

so i guess it wasn't men who wrote the bible, so christians claim god wrote the bible like Muslims claim the quran is the direct word of god.

 

[Digit]

so i guess it wasn't men who wrote the bible, so christians claim god wrote the bible like Muslims claim the quran is the direct word of god.

Well, that depends I think. For me, and please don't take what I say as what every Chrisitian thinks, I believe God used man as a writer uses a pen to record His Word.

There is a word in scripture, I think it's theopneustos which actually doesn't have a direct meaning in English other than "God-breathed" that is, from the mouth of God. We have instead changed this to "inspire" which has lead to some confusion - but inspire is certainly easier to understand than God-breathed right? So I can see why it was changed, but when people take our translations overly literally, then problems can arise.

As often people say that man can be inspired by a sunset to write about it, but it doesn't mean that what he writes is perfect and infallible. So this is one area which I find important, because I believe that God's Word, the Bible, is flawless and the errors perceived are there due to translation errors on our part as over time we have translated the works into numerous langauges.

So for me, yes I believe it was directed by God. Others may not though and that doesn't really matter as we are all united in Christ as we have all found something of truth in God's Word, which is what I feel He intended.

Cheers!
Digit

 

[Awesomegirl]

and so it is wrong for a human to be inspired by something other than the bible? I think Buddhism is inspiring and i find that there are a lot of truths found in that philosophy/truth. I think it is very good thing if the bible inspires you to be a good person, and i can see value in it if it does. No problem with that.

 

[Digit]

and so it is wrong for a human to be inspired by something other than the bible?

I didn't say that. You asked if I think the Bible was written by man or God and I explained about how we have translated a word to mean inspired, as it has more meaning to the average person than 'God-breathed'. You are now talking about what we as humans can find inspiring, and I think the answer to that is pretty much anything. Both good and bad can inspire, to opposite actions. I can be inspired by the horror of factory farming, to only buy free-range food products and I can be inspired by a romantic gesture I observe in another couple to do something awesome for my wife. That inspiration, is different than the inspiration that the writers of the Bible received from God. In my humble opinion.

I think Buddhism is inspiring and i find that there are a lot of truths found in that philosophy/truth. I think it is very good thing if the bible inspires you to be a good person, and i can see value in it if it does. No problem with that.

Right. But you said earlier the concept of a God is unknowable, and I am trying to demonstrate how Christians, again maybe I should say how I have come to know Him. Through His Word in scripture.

Cheers!
Digit

 

[Awesomegirl]

oops read my next post

 

[Awesomegirl]

i should of made it clear that i am talking about good inspiration only. Buddhism was inspired by the enlightened one or the "Buddha" and is a great way for people to become spiritually healthy. My question is why do christians frown upon the choice of another inspired belief? If it makes a person spirit more healthy why does it get frowned upon. To be honest I could never claim to be atheist, because I do think there is some kind of higher power, I just don't know what it is and I'm not going to pretend to know, hence my agnosticism. And I am not saying your beliefs are pretend because you have a something to go on I guess.

 

[Awesomegirl]

hmm the more I read about Buddhism the more I am interested in it, I am studying Buddhism at the moment in my religion class and I must say it is very cool.

 

[Crujir]

hmm the more I read about Buddhism the more I am interested in it, I am studying Buddhism at the moment in my religion class and I must say it is very cool.

I'll tell you right now Buddhism won't make you happy.

 

[Digit]

Hey again.

i should of made it clear that i am talking about good inspiration only.

I think we understand each other here, but just to clarify, I was talking about the way the Bible was written, it was 'inspired' by God, to be written by His tools, mankind. Inspired, as I pointed out earlier, I think is not an accurate translation, but it serves the purpose for us in the present to convey how it came to be.

Buddhism was inspired by the enlightened one or the "Buddha" and is a great way for people to become spiritually healthy. My question is why do christians frown upon the choice of another inspired belief?

Exodus 20:3
"You shall have no other gods before me."

Deuteronomy 5:7
"You shall have no other gods before me."

I think that should clear it up.

If it makes a person spirit more healthy why does it get frowned upon.

It's not just frowned upon like harsh language, it's sinful, like murder to us Christians.

To be honest I could never claim to be atheist, because I do think there is some kind of higher power, I just don't know what it is and I'm not going to pretend to know, hence my agnosticism.

Back to my original post and response to you:
Why not find out? Like I said you have the vastness of the internet at your fingertips, online Bibles, online everything. The answer is out there, it just takes a desire to find it. Don't take that badly, I was a non-Christian for most of my life, and was presented much the same arguments as you are being presented with here, and I did nothing too. If I could put my finger on why I did nothing, I think I could bring people to Christ in droves, but I have no idea why. It eludes me. Something just wasn't right then. So don't think I will think any less if you leave here in much the same way as you came. All us Christians are commanded to do from God, is to offer a truthful defense, I personally believe that God does the rest. Thus, the defence I offer freely.

Speaking of Bhuddism, it's odd you should mention that, as at church this weekend just gone we had a Buddist testify as to how he came to be a Christian. He used many words but the short version is that Bhuddism is a deeds-based religion, in that upon rebirth if you have done well in your past life you are raised to the next level in your next life. Onwards and upwards until you reach the enlightened plane where you don't have to work anymore to achieve success. He walked into a church and saw the words on a banner, that spoke of how God will give you salvation, if you just ask. That stuck with him, and three months later he was baptised in Christ's name.

Now, I'm not saying that this will happen for you or every Bhuddist out there. But I think it illustrates what Christianity offers, and it's asking price. For absolutely nothing, you can have everything.

Food for thought.

Cheers!
Digit

 

[Awesomegirl]

I have read most of the bible, and I still find it completely unknowable. The reason Buddhism is appealing is it stresses the way you live your life and not who you believe in. Some Buddhist believe in a god or a great spirit, and some don't. It doesn't really matter to them. When you say go and find out do you mean just go read the bible and be closed minded or do you mean try a plethora of religions and beliefs? I would def have to choose a belief that is inclusive and doesn't discriminate against others or judge diversity with hatred.

 

[Awesomegirl]

wow murder and having different beliefs are at way different ends of the spectrum. For someone to even begin to compare them is extremely odd to me, I know I can discern between the two, I sure hope God can to, esp if he is all knowing. Also, in reply to your Buddhist conversion story, I don't want a quick easy fix, I would like to follow something that is life altering and takes hard work because I have found that the best results come from hard work and patience, like in sports and academics I am willing to put the work into it if it makes me a better person. Just my food for thought.

 

[Awesomegirl]

like in our off topic chatting, I want to be more respectful in this chat so slap me if I get out of hand ok.

 

[Digit]

Hey,

I think herein lies a few problems. First is that reading the Bible doesn't neccessarily mean that by doing so, you understand it. Speaking again from personal experience, I've probably read the Bible in it's entirety over the course of my life thus far, yet until I became a Christian I don't really think I understood much of it. Something that keeps me coming back, is how such simple passages can contain such complex meanings.

I have read most of the bible, and I still find it completely unknowable. The reason Buddhism is appealing is it stresses the way you live your life and not who you believe in.

Doesn't Christianity do the same thing? Love your neighbour as yourself. Do not lie. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not commit adultery and so on. God created those laws for a reason, because it's not fun to be lied too. It's not fun to have your possessions stolen. Do you think God thought, "Man, it's so fun to be murdered, but I want to have all that fun for myself, so you guys, you all 'shalt not murder'."? Of course not. He created these laws for our protection. God designed the world with intent yet through the fall of man in Genesis we became aware of good and evil, evil operates on the same level as good, yet in a different way, for a different reason. We were unaware of this until then and so God created commandments to protect us but not only that, to look out for each other!

Does that not seem better than the way Bhuddism teaches that you are solely responsible for your existance and elevation? When you boil down to it, that's pretty selfish and whilst it does lean towards helping others, and by nature helping yourself, it doesn't have any restrictions in place to govern this process.

Ok, how to explain...

Think about a soccer game. Think about 22 kids running around on a pitch with no rules. They want to have fun, and enjoy the game, but when the ball goes out of play, there is no whistle to bring it back. The pitch isn't marked properly and there are no fouls or rules. It's basically chaos, but the good intention was there to start with. Now imagine the ref shows up and draws the pitch lines, blows the whistle when the ball goes out and brings it back in play, and stops the game when there is a foul and so on. Suddenly, via the rules (laws) the game (life) is so much better, because the ref (God) cares about the players and looks out for them.

Does that make sense?

When you say go and find out do you mean just go read the bible and be closed minded or do you mean try a plethora of religions and beliefs?

This is a two parter. First up, reading and understanding the Bible I don't think needs to be closed-minded. In fact a good verse, which I truly have stuck in my mind in all these discussions, is:
1 Thessalonions 5:21
"Test everything. Hold on to the good."

God doesn't want to pull a fast one on you, and dazzle you with smoke and mirrors. He wants you to reason with Him, and to work things out. By saying look for the answers, I mean establish a foundation of faith. Normally a persons first reaction to being presented with the totality of God, is to go, "Why would He do that?" and that's the first stop, from there it's a rollercoaster ride that (fingers crossed) will end up with scripture saying a lot of things that deeply touch you and move you to declare God your savior. I mean really, at the end of the day if you don't have any serious objections to loving your neighbour as yourself, then you really have no good cause to reject Christianity. That's not meant as an ultimatum, I'm just sort of thinking as I type. To me being a Christian means upholding God's laws and demonstrating His love by living it in my life. Just as Christ did.

I would def have to choose a belief that is inclusive and doesn't discriminate against others or judge diversity with hatred.

Oh yeah, and this was my second problem heh. Sorry. Basically, I get the impression you are looking for a religion that makes sense to you, those that do not, you reject. However the issue I have, is why does God need to be put in a box, and conform to your way of thinking?

That's almost something that makes me more confident in my position, as C.S. Lewis said, Christianity is not something I would ever have guessed.

We can't create a religion and pick and choose the bits we like.

I think that ended up being long, and I need dinner and then I'm playing some computer games with my wife. So back later! Adieu!

Cheers!
Digit

 

[Awesomegirl]

Buddhism isn't chaotic at all, it is very structured and if you read the [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tipitaka (the Buddhist holy book) you would know that it is far from being chaotic. Yes Christianity shares a lot of the same morals with Buddhism but in the end faith in a certain deity or person is stressed more in Christianity, leaving the non christian in a fiery oven for all eternity. I do understand Christianity as I have grown up around christians pretty much all my life and I have even been to church a few times. I don't find the idea of taking responsibility for your actions to be selfish at all. In fact I find it the opposite of selfish. Buddhism doesn't teach that a simple answer can change us, it takes work. I am not trying to create my own religion I am searching for what belief or practice can help make me a healthier person spiritually and give me the mindset and peace of mind to influence others around me to be better people, I am not looking to have an ideology that puts me above people because I believe in a certain way. They do share good moral teachings and if following Christianity equips you to become a better person (like i said before) than I fully support you being a christian. I am glad however that I am giving this more thought and consideration because I am really discovering what I value and what is most important to me.
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