I feel like the only Christian who believes in evolution.

[rusmeister]

to the OP, you are not the only one who believes in it.

And some, if not all of the same people, think that Adam was not a real person, but rather only an allegory. Others in the Church believe the mutually contradictory ideas that man slowly evolved from other species, monkeys for shorthand, killing and dying in a fallen world where death already reigned, AND that wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; that an unfallen and already-created man sinned and caused death, which had not previously existed. They just don't think it through. They then begin to speak of Holy Tradition as "living", by which they mean that it actually changes its content and substance over time; that it evolves just as the whole cosmos evolves in their imagination. The same people begin to push for changes in moral teaching on sexuality, and advocate priestesses, alphabet-soup marriages, etc. They say, "The fathers were good enough in their time, but now we 'know better'; we have modern educations, modern science, psychology, etc on our side; revelation is continuous" rather than accepting that Christ is the ultimate revelation in every sense. By no means all who profess evolution do these things, but over time, it is from among such people that the modern challenges to Holy Tradition (aka "heresy") arise.

People come into the Church with the mentality and education of the world, and then, very frequently, mistake their own opinions for Church teaching. The only thing that can save us from that is a willingness to accept the correction of the Church, via the fathers, Scripture, and everywhere the teachings are embedded, of our own ideas.

Yes, certainly, you are right that one man here is not alone in believing in evolution.

 

[Erik Nelson]

As a general statement, I think you can preserve the essential core of Christianity as well as Evolution -- "everybody's [basically] right"...

with just the Biblical view that God occasionally intervenes in otherwise natural terrestrial events.

The OT does not claim that every single gust of wind is caused by supra-natural Heavenly Powers... rather the OT claims that God in heaven sporadically intervenes into Earth weather, occasionally whipping up storms to [say] blow back the Red Sea and allow the Israelites to escape.

IOW, things usually play out according to normal regular natural laws [ = science ]
but once in a while God intervenes with supra-natural power so as to alter what otherwise would have happened.

Pharaoh would have re-captured the Israelites... if things had played out purely naturally. It was so obvious, he was correctly 100.00% sure of it! According to all human-known natural laws of science [so to speak], he should have just been able to ride after them and round them up.

But Pharaoh didn't count on God in heaven supra-naturally altering the course of human history, with supra-natural "weather modification" and "geo-manipulation" as it were.

Usually, 99% of the time, in the absence of supra-natural intervention, things play out according to the natural laws of human-known science... natural laws humans have discovered, whenever they are in control, able to control & govern experimental conditions to reveal relationships between variables...

but 1% of the time, God in heaven "jumps in" and supra-naturally alters the course of events... Then, God is in control, governing conditions on earth, modifying the "values of variables", to the surprise of some people upon this planet, so as to bring about Divine Will

Evolution is a natural law. It occurs on Earth normally 99% of the time. However, God has repeatedly intervened into the course of human history, over thousands & thousands of years... It is no additional claim or assertion whatsoever, to then suppose that God has repeatedly intervened into the course of pre-history, over thousands of thousands of years...

i.e. that God has "steered" evolution on Earth, just as much as God has "steered" human history on Earth.

Plants always grow. But a gardener can greatly influence their environment so as to turn "wilderness" into a well manicured "garden". So could God supra-naturally manipulate events on Earth, so as to "cultivate" this world & the life-forms upon it

 

[ArmyMatt]

As a general statement, I think you can preserve the essential core of Christianity as well as Evolution -- "everybody's [basically] right"...

with just the Biblical view that God occasionally intervenes in otherwise natural terrestrial events.

The OT does not claim that every single gust of wind is caused by supra-natural Heavenly Powers... rather the OT claims that God in heaven sporadically intervenes into Earth weather, occasionally whipping up storms to [say] blow back the Red Sea and allow the Israelites to escape.

IOW, things usually play out according to normal regular natural laws [ = science ]
but once in a while God intervenes with supra-natural power so as to alter what otherwise would have happened.

Pharaoh would have re-captured the Israelites... if things had played out purely naturally. It was so obvious, he was correctly 100.00% sure of it! According to all human-known natural laws of science [so to speak], he should have just been able to ride after them and round them up.

But Pharaoh didn't count on God in heaven supra-naturally altering the course of human history, with supra-natural "weather modification" and "geo-manipulation" as it were.

Usually, 99% of the time, in the absence of supra-natural intervention, things play out according to the natural laws of human-known science... natural laws humans have discovered, whenever they are in control, able to control & govern experimental conditions to reveal relationships between variables...

but 1% of the time, God in heaven "jumps in" and supra-naturally alters the course of events... Then, God is in control, governing conditions on earth, modifying the "values of variables", to the surprise of some people upon this planet, so as to bring about Divine Will

Evolution is a natural law. It occurs on Earth normally 99% of the time. However, God has repeatedly intervened into the course of human history, over thousands & thousands of years... It is no additional claim or assertion whatsoever, to then suppose that God has repeatedly intervened into the course of pre-history, over thousands of thousands of years...

i.e. that God has "steered" evolution on Earth, just as much as God has "steered" human history on Earth.

Plants always grow. But a gardener can greatly influence their environment so as to turn "wilderness" into a well manicured "garden". So could God supra-naturally manipulate events on Earth, so as to "cultivate" this world & the life-forms upon it

this is not what we believe. God is at work 100% of the time.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

As one Orthodox friend of mine mentioned: "Adam's Fall brought Death into the World. Prior to the Fall, there was no death. Hence, there could've been no 'evolution', since nothing died." Sounds simple, but true.

 

[Erik Nelson]

this is not what we believe. God is at work 100% of the time.

potentially , of course!

yet, can you cite Scripture proving your stronger statement?

 

[ArmyMatt]

potentially , of course!

yet, can you cite Scripture proving your stronger statement?

not potentially, in actuality.

it's all over the place in Job. Job 26:7-8 off the top of my head. there is one line in Job which says if God removes Himself, all would be destroyed.

 

[Nevyn Atall]

I used to really struggle with the idea of evolution. Then I played the video game Spore and caught myself wondering if God had as much fun creating each of the species as I was having. I'm not saying that turned me into an evolutionist, it just removed a lot of the conflict that had tormented me before.

I'm not passionate about the issue either way so I'm not going to debate it, I just wanted to throw in my $.02.

 

[Erik Nelson]

not potentially, in actuality.

it's all over the place in Job. Job 26:7-8 off the top of my head. there is one line in Job which says if God removes Himself, all would be destroyed.

I will try to find the verse(s) !

 

[ArmyMatt]

I will try to find the verse(s) !

me too, but note in the verse I referenced, God's actions are in the present tense.

 

[Tutorman]

I like what my Priest says about the topic - "I don't stress over it I just know God created everything."


I come down on the side of YEC myself

 

[Erik Nelson]

me too, but note in the verse I referenced, God's actions are in the present tense.

NORTH also means darkness, hiddenness... Such a translation might make more sense in the context

 

[ArmyMatt]

NORTH also means darkness, hiddenness... Such a translation might make more sense in the context

yes, but when speaking of an eternal God, anything in the present tense is something eternally done. so God IS stretching and hanging and binding now.

 

[gzt]

You're not the only one in the least. Frankly, most of the bishops I've met believe it. it's kind of hard not to, but some traditionalists find a way.

 

[Erik Nelson]

yes, but when speaking of an eternal God, anything in the present tense is something eternally done. so God IS stretching and hanging and binding now.

yes God is always immanent, even imminently so, if I understand these words correctly

think your statement is slightly too strong, but a safe assumption, better safe than sorry so to speak

 

[rusmeister]

You're not the only one in the least. Frankly, most of the bishops I've met believe it. it's kind of hard not to, but some traditionalists find a way.

Indeed it is hard not to.
Most of us, including most bishops, have received a modern, not classical education, which has an atmosphere and is founded n certain philosophical assumptions which are never stated, but can be found in the rules, regulations and requirements covering teaching and the schools and are in fact essentially atheist and materialist. And private schools are no help, as a rule, because they mimic and imitate the structure and even curriculum of the public schools. This means that anyone in the Church, even a bishop, can be a sincere believer in the Church, AND hold ideas incompatible with Church teaching, unawares. The philosophical assumptions are assumed, and rarely thought out.

The basic assumption evolutionists hold is that “most scientists seem to affirm it, and the textbooks tell us of mountains of evidence, and what we see seems to bear it out, therefrore it is true fact, as certain as the statement that Jesus is Lord”. Now there ARE mountains of evidence - of something - but it is the interpretations and conclusions drawn by people trained in the philosophical assumptions in an education system not designed to give what our ancestors would call an education at all that we would question. In short, modern education is dust and ashes. It has not taught us truth, our college degrees are largely worthless, the philosophies have no love of wisdom, the teachings in the natural sciences regarding what has not, and cannot be observed, teach an erroneous narrative, and most, f not all of us, are full of ideas born in agnosticism and atheism, hostile to the revealed revelation of the Church, and the wisdom of the Church fathers.

The modern must essentially return to Socrates’ “I know nothing”, to the innocence and faith of a little child - not in modern schools and universities, or the priests of the religion of our time (scientists), but in the traditional teachings of the Church. To be Orthodox is to be traditional by definition, and to sneer at tradition, above all Holy Tradition, is to reject Orthodoxy and (if one continues to claim the name) to become a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Science is useful - in its place. It can help us build and make many useful things, and understand fascinating things about God’s Creation. But it ought not to be worshiped, or placed on a pedestal giving its adherents equal authority to that of the Church fathers in our understandings of what truth is. We are fools if we think we know better than the fathers, if we think we have any kind of superiority because we live today. And many are indeed such fools. The only way to be sure of avoiding that is to say that “If my ideas contradict the Church and consensus of the fathers, then it is my ideas that are wrong, not theirs”.

When in doubt, ask the fathers. Your (and my) formal education is worthless next to them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yes God is always immanent, even imminently so, if I understand these words correctly

think your statement is slightly too strong, but a safe assumption, better safe than sorry so to speak

it's just something I remember my professor of Scripture say, and that is the Semitic understanding is that everything, even the natural phenomena, is from the hand of God.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Indeed it is hard not to.
Most of us, including most bishops, have received a modern, not classical education, which has an atmosphere and is founded n certain philosophical assumptions which are never stated, but can be found in the rules, regulations and requirements covering teaching and the schools and are in fact essentially atheist and materialist. And private schools are no help, as a rule, because they mimic and imitate the structure and even curriculum of the public schools. This means that anyone in the Church, even a bishop, can be a sincere believer in the Church, AND hold ideas incompatible with Church teaching, unawares. The philosophical assumptions are assumed, and rarely thought out.

The basic assumption evolutionists hold is that “most scientists seem to affirm it, and the textbooks tell us of mountains of evidence, and what we see seems to bear it out, therefrore it is true fact, as certain as the statement that Jesus is Lord”. Now there ARE mountains of evidence - of something - but it is the interpretations and conclusions drawn by people trained in the philosophical assumptions in an education system not designed to give what our ancestors would call an education at all that we would question. In short, modern education is dust and ashes. It has not taught us truth, our college degrees are largely worthless, the philosophies have no love of wisdom, the teachings in the natural sciences regarding what has not, and cannot be observed, teach an erroneous narrative, and most, f not all of us, are full of ideas born in agnosticism and atheism, hostile to the revealed revelation of the Church, and the wisdom of the Church fathers.

The modern must essentially return to Socrates’ “I know nothing”, to the innocence and faith of a little child - not in modern schools and universities, or the priests of the religion of our time (scientists), but in the traditional teachings of the Church. To be Orthodox is to be traditional by definition, and to sneer at tradition, above all Holy Tradition, is to reject Orthodoxy and (if one continues to claim the name) to become a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Science is useful - in its place. It can help us build and make many useful things, and understand fascinating things about God’s Creation. But it ought not to be worshiped, or placed on a pedestal giving its adherents equal authority to that of the Church fathers in our understandings of what truth is. We are fools if we think we know better than the fathers, if we think we have any kind of superiority because we live today. And many are indeed such fools. The only way to be sure of avoiding that is to say that “If my ideas contradict the Church and consensus of the fathers, then it is my ideas that are wrong, not theirs”.

When in doubt, ask the fathers. Your (and my) formal education is worthless next to them.

In my education (looking back now) we learned a tremendous number of "facts". So many in fact, that there was no time to learn how to critically examine - only barely enough time to assimilate, digest, and be able to recount what we were told to learn.

I became painfully aware of that only afterwards, when I sought to apply a more critical level of analysis (fully expecting to REALLY PROVE) what I'd been taught. It was only then that I realized it was only "proof" when you accept a great many foundational assumptions (which no one had ever tried to prove and may be impossible to prove), and interpret all the data according to that framework.

We are not taught to critically examine anything anymore!!!

You mention classical education - maybe that's the key? It was a model I encountered and decided to use in the educational program I was developing, so perhaps I only learned a little bit myself as an adult what people used to be taught as a matter of course in a good education. But with those tools I look around me now and so very many things that people invest their lives and ideaology in make no sense at all. Maybe that's why ...

And I'm pretty strongly "intuitive and feeling" on the Meyers-Briggs.

 

[rusmeister]

In my education (looking back now) we learned a tremendous number of "facts". So many in fact, that there was no time to learn how to critically examine - only barely enough time to assimilate, digest, and be able to recount what we were told to learn.

I became painfully aware of that only afterwards, when I sought to apply a more critical level of analysis (fully expecting to REALLY PROVE) what I'd been taught. It was only then that I realized it was only "proof" when you accept a great many foundational assumptions (which no one had ever tried to prove and may be impossible to prove), and interpret all the data according to that framework.

We are not taught to critically examine anything anymore!!!

You mention classical education - maybe that's the key? It was a model I encountered and decided to use in the educational program I was developing, so perhaps I only learned a little bit myself as an adult what people used to be taught as a matter of course in a good education. But with those tools I look around me now and so very many things that people invest their lives and ideaology in make no sense at all. Maybe that's why ...

And I'm pretty strongly "intuitive and feeling" on the Meyers-Briggs.

The Lost Tools of Learning- Dorothy Sayers - Association of Classical Christian Schools (ACCS)

 

[rusmeister]

This is a diagram of it:
Sayers Classical Academy » On Classical Education

 

[Erik Nelson]

it's just something I remember my professor of Scripture say, and that is the Semitic understanding is that everything, even the natural phenomena, is from the hand of God.

Hebrews 13:2

You see "Angels every time", I acknowledge it "could be Angels every time", maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle