I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

[SaintInChicago]

You say that as though it's a fact and we're too thick-headed to get it. It is not a fact, it is an opinion. Your opinion, not mine.

Slavery harms an actual person, abortion harms an actual person.

That, my friend, is my OPINION. Try to be honest enough to present your opinions as what they are rather than facts.

Peace out.

Well said.

"Slaves aren't people, they're 3/5 of a person"

 

[TexasSky]

I don't think that anyone has any right to tell others what to do. Only a woman who is considering abortion and may be her family can have say in it. Christian right should stay out of people's lives and stop trying to tell us what to do. You don't talk out of experience, you don't even talk out of compassion, trust me the last thing you are concerned about is woman's life and health. But the bunch of cells and tissues is so much more valuable then an actual human being. There is nothing moral in being "pro - life", because the same fundies are either pro - war or death penalty. Male fundies shouldn't say anything before you think this issue through, not from the *biblical* point of view. You will never be in this situation so how do you know that you are right. Don't you dare and call US hypocrites before you get a good look at the bigger picture. Don't you dare and try to control our lives.

.......

"I don't think that anyone has any right to tell others what to do."

Do you support seat-belt laws?
Anti-Drunk driving laws?
Anti-drug-use laws?
Speed limits?
Child vaccinations?
Mandatory school attendance for students in elementary through high school?

"Only a woman who is considering abortion and may be her family can have say in it."

What about the man who fathered that child?
Does he have any rights?
1/2 of that child's DNA is from his body.

"You don't talk out of experience, you don't even talk out of compassion, trust me the last thing you are concerned about is woman's life and health. "

A tremendous number of pro-life people today had abortions in the past, and report that they suffered horrendous emotional scars.
In fact, in Roe vs Wade, the woman who fought so hard for the right to have an abortion, not is Pro-Life.

" But the bunch of cells and tissues is so much more valuable then an actual human being. "

Cells and tissue that have eyelashes, and eyes, and ears, and fingers, and toes. That have visual cortexes. That suck their thumbs, and play with the umbilical cords. That sometimes "hide" and "move" when sonograms are done, in reaction to the waves. That kick and move in response to the mother's emotional condition, to voices and music outside the womb.

"There is nothing moral in being "pro - life", because the same fundies are either pro - war or death penalty. "

A totally inaccurate generalization.

"Male fundies shouldn't say anything before you think this issue through, not from the *biblical* point of view."

Males care about children.

"You will never be in this situation so how do you know that you are right. Don't you dare and call US hypocrites before you get a good look at the bigger picture. Don't you dare and try to control our lives."

Are you pregnant right now?

 

[IzzyPop]

China's policy actually started out the same way - - as a "choice to abort" .. then it became a requirement.

And when we force to abort, the comparison will be valid. As it stands, however, China is just as anti-choice as the pro-life crowd.

 

[SaintInChicago]

And when we force to abort, the comparison will be valid. As it stands, however, China is just as anti-choice as the pro-life crowd.

And when we force slave owning, the comparison will be valid. As it stands, however, England is just as anti-choice as the North.

 

[PassionFruit]

Whether it hurts you personally doesn't affect its morality. The genocide in Darfur probably doesn't hurt you in the least, but that doesn't mean that it's OK.

I'm strongly pro-choice, but I think there are much better arguments than "Don't like abortion? Don't get one."

But you know what's strange about that argument, is that since I've volunteered at PP for awhile now, I've met women who consider themselves against abortions, but they were getting them anyways.

 

[gengwall]

But you know what's strange about that argument, is that since I've volunteered at PP for awhile now, I've met women who consider themselves against abortions, but they were getting them anyways.

I have heard often that nobody is actual pro-abortion, they are just pro-choice. Guess who said this:

"I believe we can all recognize that abortion in many ways represents a sad, even tragic choice to many, many women."

Doesn't sound very pro-abortion to me. It was said by Sen. Clinton speaking to NY family planning providers in 2005. It reflects the inner paradox for many pro-choice advocates. Although they don't like the thought of abortion personally, they believe it is not their choice but that it should be a choice for the person affected. For those who oppose abortion until they are presented with that "sad, even tragic choice", I can understand how the paradox is especially profound for them. It is a similar thing that presents itself to a pacifist who all of a sudden is presented with the thought of chosing between killing or having a loved one killed. All bets are off when it becomes personal.

 

[PassionFruit]

I have heard often that nobody is actual pro-abortion, they are just pro-choice. Guess who said this:

"I believe we can all recognize that abortion in many ways represents a sad, even tragic choice to many, many women."

Doesn't sound very pro-abortion to me. It was said by Sen. Clinton speaking to NY family planning providers in 2005. It reflects the inner paradox for many pro-choice advocates. Although they don't like the thought of abortion personally, they believe it is not their choice but that it should be a choice for the person affected. For those who oppose abortion until they are presented with that "sad, even tragic choice", I can understand how the paradox is especially profound for them. It is a similar thing that presents itself to a pacifist who all of a sudden is presented with the thought of chosing between killing or having a loved one killed. All bets are off when it becomes personal.

Yes, I think it becomes different when you suddenly find yourself in the position to have the make that decision. I would agree that it is an inner paradox for many people who identify as being pro-choice. It's easy to say, "oh I would never have an abortion, but I support a woman's right to do so if she does." But even for a pro-choice person, they won't really know what they'll do until they find themselves in that position.

 

[Westvleteren]

Been there. I've always been pro-choice, but I didn't want to have an abortion. I didn't clap my hands in glee and say, "Oh, goodie, my birth control failed and now, since my life's a wreck and I can't take care of myself, much less a child, I get to have an abortion! Wheeee!"

No, for weeks I cried and prayed and tried to think of any way I could support myself waiting tables for the next nine months while I was pregnant so I could at least consider adoption. Abortion was the last resort for me, but it was the right decision.

The same goes for a woman facing a pregnancy that puts her health at risk and she aborts so that her living children will have a mother. Or a girl molested by a relative who aborts because she can barely keep her own health and sanity together much less an unborn child's. Or a woman who gets pregnant by an abusive partner and she aborts to spare a child a slow death by torture and neglect.

There are all kinds of reasons to have an abortion, and none of them have anything to do with thinking abortion is a great thing to have to do. In the meantime, the last thing a woman in that position needs is someone shoving their religious condemnation in her face.

 

[Texas Lynn]

How bout you stay the hell out of the unborn childs life and his right to life..The unborn child has a right to live like anyone else. If you say different then you obviously don't respect the value of human life..And if you don't respect human life then you are immoral, cold hearted, and ignorant..The Pro-lifers are fighting for the voice of the child, which the mother and doctor ignore, and has no right to ignore. Since the unborn child does not consent to being ripped apart by a doctor it is done against its will which is a dastardly violent act..Shame on anyone who would do such a thing. An unborn child hasn't hurt anyone, they are innocent, and they deserve all the respect and right to live as does anyone else..

And yes abortion does hurt people. Forcing tax payers their money to fund abortions. It corrodes the moral structure of society, which increases crime and child abuse..Abortion is an act of violence and child abuse, and any increase of those 2 things does affect society and could lead to even worse things..



In the US and a few other countrys. In lotsa other countrys its illegal,,, does that mean its murder in those countrys?? Is the US law your universal moral code??



The world is the culture of death, so its normal for the percentage to be great. The road to destruction is wide and MANY follow it.. percentages don't mean anything, all it does is show us how many people are deceieved by the culture of death in this world. Christ showed us that many people are not going to heaven but only a very few..

Abortion is not the business of anyone other than the woman. The idea a fetus is a "child" is a work of fiction.

A Heaven that excludes people for abortion, or any other petty reason for which the religious right hates people, presuppises an evil god and a worthless heaven. Such a heaven has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with hate. No one worth a fig would want to go there.

 

[Lisa0315]

A 16 year old girl is unexpectedly pregnant. She, her boyfried, her parents and her doctor have spent many agonizing hours in careful discussion of all the options, and decide on abortion, suddenly the phone rings.

Caller: Hi, I'm the Christian Right! Just calling to let you know you can't have an abortions.

Girl: Umm... why not?

Caller: Because we don't like it.

Girl: So? It's not your baby, it's not your family, it's not your decision...

Caller: Well too bad, I've never met you before and you live thousands of miles away from me, but I feel I have a right to compel people to follow my moral precepts above their own.

Girl: You do realize that this decision has absolutely nothing to do with you right? That there is no possible way my having an abortion would effect you negatively right?

Caller: Oh I understand that perfectly, still, I find your behavior, which has no effect on me whatsoever, distasteful, so no, you can't do it.

Girl:...

Caller: Ok bye now! God bless.




Listen, Pro-lifers, we KNOW that you don't like abortion, So here's what you can do. You can choose not to have abortions and you can teach your children that abortion is morally wrong. Stay the hell out of the rest of our lives. If were not hurting you, you have NO. RIGHT. WHAT. SO. EVER. to attempt to control what we do. An abortion is a serious decision and the only people that should weigh in on it are the ones directly effected by it, and the doctor. I don't care if you think it's immoral, you have no logical justification for intervention on this one. Stay the hell out.

Entering late in this.

Tell you what...Stop withholding information from the women, and then maybe you will have something worth saying.

Lisa

 

[Texas Lynn]

Wow - playing the race card. Nice! So, let's see if I get what you are saying. Fundimentalist pro-life Christians are fine spending their time and money trying to prevent non-white women from having abortions but turn their backs on non-white women who decide to have their babies. Have any support for that? Last time I looked, all those Christian run unwed mother shelters, chrisis pregnancy centers, and single mother programs weren't hanging "for whites only" signs on their doors. And I have heard no evidence, empirical or anecdotal, that non-white mothers are greated at the door with a mockingly polite "sorry sweety, we don't serve your kind here".

When fake antiabortion 'crisis pregnancy centers" have women in their clutches they pry to try to find out the race of the man who got the woman pregnant. If he's white they try to adopt the fetus. If not they refer her to child welfare.

 

[gengwall]

When fake antiabortion 'crisis pregnancy centers" have women in their clutches they pry to try to find out the race of the man who got the woman pregnant. If he's white they try to adopt the fetus. If not they refer her to child welfare.

Wow - that's quite an conspiracy theory. Got any proof?

 

[Chaplain David]

In other threads I've viewed, people have mentioned abortion that is performed because of rape, danger to the mother, or babies that have problems such as downs syndrome or defects. But isn't the majority of abortion really performed as a method of birth control?

 

[WatersMoon110]

In other threads I've viewed, people have mentioned abortion that is performed because of rape, danger to the mother, or babies that have problems such as downs syndrome or defects. But isn't the majority of abortion really performed as a method of birth control?

Actually, all abortion is "birth control" in that it ends pregnancy and so controls birth.

"On average, women give four reasons for choosing abortion. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner."
Source

So, yeah, most abortions are not done because of rape, or birth defects. Since this is only for elective abortions, there isn't a statistic for how many life-saving abortions are done, but those are done by recommendation of a doctor, and I imagine they are rather rare.

 

[Avatar]

I don't know a thing about you pal, but your insecurity about it is quite telling.

Is that right, pal? See the symbols for those 8 kids in my posts? They're native American. I'm not. Some racist I am.

And it was you who implied that pro-lifers only care about white babies. And I am a pro-lifer. So you did call me a racist. Are you going to let that assertion stand? I won't be at all surprised if you do. I have a pretty good bead on you too, bud.

 

[SaintInChicago]

Abortion is not the business of anyone other than the woman. The idea a fetus is a "child" is a work of fiction.

A Heaven that excludes people for abortion, or any other petty reason for which the religious right hates people, presuppises an evil god and a worthless heaven. Such a heaven has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with hate. No one worth a fig would want to go there.

Slavery is not the business of anyone other than the slaveholder. The idea the slave is a "person" is a work of fiction.

A Heaven that excludes people for slavery, or any other petty reason for which the religious right hates people, presuppis(sic) an evil god and a worthless heaven. Such a heaven has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with hate. No one worth a fig would want to go there.

You know Lynn, it would be to your own benefit to consider the principles in this paper when posting:
http://www.numbersusa.com/about/eth_extremes.html

 

[Chaplain David]

Slavery is not the business of anyone other than the slaveholder. The idea the slave is a "person" is a work of fiction.

A Heaven that excludes people for slavery, or any other petty reason for which the religious right hates people, presuppis(sic) an evil god and a worthless heaven. Such a heaven has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with hate. No one worth a fig would want to go there.

You know Lynn, it would be to your own benefit to consider the principles in this paper when posting:
http://www.numbersusa.com/about/eth_extremes.html

Please explain exactly who the "religious right" is and "how" you can justify the statement that they hate people.

Thank you.

 

[SaintInChicago]

Is that right, pal? See the symbols for those 8 kids in my posts? They're native American. I'm not. Some racist I am.

And it was you who implied that pro-lifers only care about white babies. And I am a pro-lifer. So you did call me a racist. Are you going to let that assertion stand? I won't be at all surprised if you do. I have a pretty good bead on you too, bud.

Please explain exactly who the "religious right" is and "how" you can justify the statement that they hate people.

Thank you.

It's part of being open-minded. There are traditional, conventional views that the majority have taken in the past because they are sensible and practical. But, you see, when you take some odd-ball position that corrupts society you get scorned for being corrupt, or a radical, or a menace. The way to deal with the cognitive dissonance of decaying the moral fabric of society is to call yourself "open minded". You're not corrupt, you're not deluded, you're not embellishing in narcissism --you're open minded toward different beliefs. That makes you more enlightened, more thoughtful, more tolerant. Of course, we see that being open minded does not forbid you from condemning others beliefs. In fact, open minded people are quite ruthless and bigoted about their quest for a more gentle, tolerant world. And, if you hold different beliefs from them, particularly ones that are more in line with what is conventional, the cause and justification could not possibly be that you reached a different conclusion via a different line of reasoning --ironically, the same justification they had for being moral deviants; you're evil. Pure evil, and full of hatred, menace, bigotry and all things rotten and unholy.

Some people honestly think that their opinion is the only conclusion a reasonable person could possibly come to.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Wow - that's quite an conspiracy theory. Got any proof?

People who went to these centers to see what they did had it happen to them. It's not "theory" when it happens.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Slavery is not the business of anyone other than the slaveholder. The idea the slave is a "person" is a work of fiction.

A Heaven that excludes people for slavery, or any other petty reason for which the religious right hates people, presuppis(sic) an evil god and a worthless heaven. Such a heaven has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with hate. No one worth a fig would want to go there.

You know Lynn, it would be to your own benefit to consider the principles in this paper when posting:
http://www.numbersusa.com/about/eth_extremes.html

Slavery is an immoral practice. Abortion is merely termination of a pregnancy. There's no comparison and no extremism.