I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

[Chaplain David]

It's part of being open-minded. There are traditional, conventional views that the majority have taken in the past because they are sensible and practical. But, you see, when you take some odd-ball position that corrupts society you get scorned for being corrupt, or a radical, or a menace. The way to deal with the cognitive dissonance of decaying the moral fabric of society is to call yourself "open minded". You're not corrupt, you're not deluded, you're not embellishing in narcissism --you're open minded toward different beliefs. That makes you more enlightened, more thoughtful, more tolerant. Of course, we see that being open minded does not forbid you from condemning others beliefs. In fact, open minded people are quite ruthless and bigoted about their quest for a more gentle, tolerant world. And, if you hold different beliefs from them, particularly ones that are more in line with what is conventional, the cause and justification could not possibly be that you reached a different conclusion via a different line of reasoning --ironically, the same justification they had for being moral deviants; you're evil. Pure evil, and full of hatred, menace, bigotry and all things rotten and unholy.

Some people honestly think that their opinion is the only conclusion a reasonable person could possibly come to.

Previous Quote:
Originally Posted by sacerdote
Please explain exactly who the "religious right" is and "how" you can justify the statement that they hate people.

Thank you.

Saint, I ask you again, who in your opinion constitutes the religious right and what justification you have that they hate people. List some denominations and churches would be a step in illuminating these points.

 

[Renton405]

Abortion is not the business of anyone other than the woman. The idea a fetus is a "child" is a work of fiction.

A Heaven that excludes people for abortion, or any other petty reason for which the religious right hates people, presuppises an evil god and a worthless heaven. Such a heaven has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with hate. No one worth a fig would want to go there.

Blah Blah Blah. Funny how 2000 years of all christianity says different. Does your opinion trump all 2000+ years guided by the holy spirit??

Any person who thinks the killing of an unborn child is worthless in themselves and has zero respect for the dignity of human life. Each unborn child has a unique soul that is gone forever once its aborted.. A woman who has an abortion needs to have a GREAT amount of contrition..Unless a woman who has had an abortion is truely sorry for what she has done and has great contrition(sorrow for her sins) she is unrepentant and in a state of mortal sin(which will send her to hell when she dies unless she realizes what she did was wrong, has contrition, and repents of it)..Any support, voting, funding, and social pressure to have an abortion is also a mortal sin and must be repented of..

 

[SaintInChicago]

Slavery is an immoral practice. Abortion is merely termination of a pregnancy. There's no comparison and no extremism.

The Final Solution is merely the termination of a problem. There's no comparison and no extremism.

Previous Quote:
Originally Posted by sacerdote
Please explain exactly who the "religious right" is and "how" you can justify the statement that they hate people.

Thank you.

Saint, I ask you again, who in your opinion constitutes the religious right and what justification you have that they hate people. List some denominations and churches would be a step in illuminating these points.

i do not believe that or claim that. I am explaining the mind of people who think like that.

 

[IzzyPop]

Blah Blah Blah. Funny how 2000 years of all christianity says different. Does your opinion trump all 2000+ years guided by the holy spirit??

Yes. Because I actually exist. And can prove it. Try the same with the holy spirit. Just like your opinion trumps Frodo's.

Any person who thinks the killing of an unborn child is worthless in themselves and has zero respect for the dignity of human life.

This coming from someone who advocated the killing of disobedient children. So the life is sacred as long as it is unborn, but once born, the value declines, eh?

unborn child has a unique soul that is gone forever once its aborted..

Or stoned for back talk.

A woman who has an abortion needs to have a GREAT amount of contrition..

Would that require more or less contrition than a woman who brained her child with a rock for shoplifting?

Unless a woman who has had an abortion is truely sorry for what she has done and has great contrition(sorrow for her sins) she is unrepentant and in a state of mortal sin(which will send her to hell when she dies unless she realizes what she did was wrong, has contrition, and repents of it)..Any support, voting, funding, and social pressure to have an abortion is also a mortal sin and must be repented of..

Seriously, dude. Go do some volunteer work with the less advantaged. Find out how tough life can be for some people. Try to find out what the lesser of two evils really means. No woman I know of is proud or happy they got an abortion. Most are racked with guilt for the remainder of their lives. But it was the best of a bunch of bad options. I find that calling these women heartless discounts them and the struggles that they went through. You can stand up there on your soap box and judge them all that you want. I prefer to be amongst them and try to help. Kinda ironic when the atheist is more Christ-like, ain't it.

 

[Westvleteren]

Everything Izzy said, plus:

Each unborn child has a unique soul that is gone forever once its aborted..

No, they don't. My lack of superstition about souls is why I don't see any problem with terminating the development of a cluster of cells in my uterus; your condemnation of women who do so is just religion-inspired prejudice with no basis in reality.

 

[Avatar]

Everything Izzy said, plus:

No, they don't. My lack of superstition about souls is why I don't see any problem with terminating the development of a cluster of cells in my uterus; your condemnation of women who do so is just religion-inspired prejudice with no basis in reality.

You're just a cluster of cells, too, right?

 

[Westvleteren]

You're just a cluster of cells, too, right?

Yup. But this cluster of cells is the boss of any other cluster of cells that wants to grow inside it.

 

[Lisa0315]

Yup. But this cluster of cells is the boss of any other cluster of cells that wants to grow inside it.

As if that cluster of cells sprang up independent of the "boss".

Take responsibility.

Lisa

 

[Westvleteren]

As if that cluster of cells sprang up independent of the "boss".

Take responsibility.

Lisa

What does where it came from have to do with anything? We did take responsibility -- we used birth control that failed.

 

[Lisa0315]

What does where it came from have to do with anything? We did take responsibility -- we used birth control that failed.

So, it is the birth control's fault?

If you were driving a car, and your brakes suddenly failed, causing you to crash into another vehicle, would your insurance pay? Or would they state that since it was brake failure, you were not responsible.

Don't cop out. Take responsibility. If you end a human life, then, at least, admit that it is human life. At least give that human being the dignity and respect of at least being acknowledged as a loss.

Lisa

 

[Westvleteren]

No, I won't characterize it that way. It was a human embryo, but not a human life. A life is the sum of a person's experiences, beginning at birth.

I'm responsible for what I did. I made the decision, with my partner's agreement, after a lot of thought and prayer and heartache. But what I did was not ending a human life. It was ending a pregnancy.

 

[Lisa0315]

No, I won't characterize it that way. It was a human embryo, but not a human life. A life is the sum of a person's experiences, beginning at birth.

I'm responsible for what I did. I made the decision, with my partner's agreement, after a lot of thought and prayer and heartache. But what I did was not ending a human life. It was ending a pregnancy.

Well, I didn't know that you were talking about your own personal experience. I would not intentionally cause you pain.

However, I believe that as a society we devalue human life. Let me give you an example.

There are turtles on the Gulf Coast that are endangered. Money and other resources were granted to preserve the eggs of these turtles. Now, these eggs cannot survive independently, no more than a human embryo can survive independently. Yet, as a society, we value those turtle eggs more than we value the life growing in a womb of a woman. Why is that?

To me there is something gravely wrong with our society who will go to extreme measure to preserve a turtle egg, but will end the life of a human being so carelessly.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

Oh, one more thing.

Human life begins at conception. To say that life begins at the first breath independent of the mother is a legal term. It is not recognized by medical science.

Lisa

 

[Westvleteren]

At conception? Do you know how many "lives" are lost during menstruation, then? An egg can be fertilized for days before it attaches to the uterus, initiating pregnancy, and it is sometimes swept away, unbeknownst to the mother, in menstrual flow before that happens. We need to start holding funerals every month, just in case!

And does that mean every frozen embryo waiting for implantation is alive?

Sometimes a legal term is useful, or the ramifications get out of hand.

 

[Westvleteren]

Well, I didn't know that you were talking about your own personal experience. I would not intentionally cause you pain.

However, I believe that as a society we devalue human life. Let me give you an example.

There are turtles on the Gulf Coast that are endangered. Money and other resources were granted to preserve the eggs of these turtles. Now, these eggs cannot survive independently, no more than a human embryo can survive independently. Yet, as a society, we value those turtle eggs more than we value the life growing in a womb of a woman. Why is that?

To me there is something gravely wrong with our society who will go to extreme measure to preserve a turtle egg, but will end the life of a human being so carelessly.

Well, thanks for the sentiment, but theoretically, either you think I'm a murderer or you don't. Why does being face-to-face (so to speak) change anything?

(I'm pro-choice for turtles, too. If Mrs. Turtle doesn't want those eggs, she can jolly well have omelet for breakfast...)

P.S. And I would imagine not many of us end pregnancies carelessly. It's not an easy decision.

 

[Avatar]

At conception? Do you know how many "lives" are lost during menstruation, then? An egg can be fertilized for days before it attaches to the uterus, initiating pregnancy, and it is sometimes swept away, unbeknownst to the mother, in menstrual flow before that happens. We need to start holding funerals every month, just in case!

And does that mean every frozen embryo waiting for implantation is alive?

Sometimes a legal term is useful, or the ramifications get out of hand.

So what's your point? Because some embryos die they are all valuless? Some young children die too, so its okay if I choose to kill a 4th grader, right? That is the logical extension of your (deeply flawed) argument.

 

[Westvleteren]

So what's your point? Because some embryos die they are all valuless? Some young children die too, so its okay if I choose to kill a 4th grader, right? That is the logical extension of your (deeply flawed) argument.

But that isn't my argument. My argument is that there is a difference between a child and an embryo. One is a living, breathing, feeling human being, and the other isn't.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Oh, one more thing.

Human life begins at conception. To say that life begins at the first breath independent of the mother is a legal term. It is not recognized by medical science.

Lisa

so, life begins at conception... does that mean that all the contraceptives that stop blastocyst implantation are abortion and murder too?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

But that isn't my argument. My argument is that there is a difference between a child and an embryo. One is a living, breathing, feeling human being, and the other isn't.

not to mention one is self aware and the other isn't

 

[Avatar]

But that isn't my argument. My argument is that there is a difference between a child and an embryo. One is a living, breathing, feeling human being, and the other isn't.

Again, what's your point? Certainly, its living (so not sure why you put that in your post.). Not breathing, though, so is that the criteria? I guess we can let people on respirators die then. Not feeling, is that the criteria? Bye-bye comatose folk.

And, btw, who decided the criteria necessary for a human life to meet in order to have a right to life? I didn't. So it would be lawyers, yes? And, of course, its always a good idea to look at the results of lawyers duking it out in an adversarial setting to determine our own moral and ethical stands.