I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

[levi501]

Well it's been over a year since I've looked at adoption statistics, but I doubt they've changed all that much. If they supported these unwanted kids, then they'd open up their homes to them. Some do. Most don't.

 

[SaintInChicago]

A wealthy Southern gentleman has some land that he wants to use to grow commercial crops. He, his wife, his brother and his accountant have spent many agonizing hours in careful discussion of all the options, and decide on slavery, suddenly a Yankee shows up on the doorway.

Yankee: Hi, I'm the Christian Right! Just calling to let you know you can't have slaves.

Southern Gentleman: Umm... why not?

Yankee: Because we don't like it.

Southern Gentleman: So? It's not your property, it's not your money, it's not your decision...

Yankee: Well too bad, I've never met you before and you live thousands of miles away from me, but I feel I have a right to compel people to follow my moral precepts above their own.

Southern Gentleman: You do realize that this decision has absolutely nothing to do with you right? That there is no possible way my having a slave would effect you negatively right?

Yankee: Oh I understand that perfectly, still, I find your behavior, which has no effect on me whatsoever, distasteful, so no, you can't do it.

Southern Gentleman:...

Yankee: Ok bye now! God bless.




Listen, Abolitionists, we KNOW that you don't like slavery, So here's what you can do. You can choose not to have slaves and you can teach your children that slavery is morally wrong. Stay the hell out of the rest of our lives. If were not hurting you, you have NO. RIGHT. WHAT. SO. EVER. to attempt to control what we do. An slave is a serious decision and the only people that should weigh in on it are the ones directly effected by it, and the accountant. I don't care if you think it's immoral, you have no logical justification for intervention on this one. Stay the hell out



--------------------------
In the annals of history birth control abortion apologists will regarded in the same light as slavers for denying the very humanity of others. They will be reviled as twisted, inhuman and disgusting.

 

[gengwall]

Well it's been over a year since I've looked at adoption statistics, but I doubt they've changed all that much. If they supported these unwanted kids, then they'd open up their homes to them. Some do. Most don't.

Well, I agree with you there.

 

[TexasSky]

And I don't see a faetus as a human being, I see it as a bunch of segregated cells leeching off the host growing for 4-5 months(For those 4-5 months, it's cancer to me and nothing else), after those 5 months though I'd have to change my opinion and call it a human being




It's funny to hear Christians say you shouldn't harm others and then see other Christians terrorize and physically and mentally harm women/teenagers who have had an abortion or the doctors that perform them.



When it can support itself, putting a baby into the world and not being able to care for it is irresponsible and stupid. "Oh hi baby, we can't feed you so we're just gonna leave you at some dumpster because insane Christians wouldn't let us have an abortion"

I call this a human being.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fetus.jpg

It is an 8 week fetus.
It is certainly more than a bunch of cells.


This is a four month old fetus.
http://www.expectalipil.com/fetal_dev_4.html

Notice, eyebrows, eyelashes, hair, visual cortex, fingers, toes, legs, ears, arms......

 

[TexasSky]

Just something to consider.

In 1979 China passed a "one-child policy" as a means of population control. If a woman gets pregnant with a second child, and the Chinese government finds out early in the pregnancy, they will force an abortion.

Because sons are valued more in China, most women whose sonograms indicate they are carrying a female child abort the babies.

One family had 3 children when the mother got pregnant again. They did try to abort the baby, but somehow botched that. The woman gave birth to a baby boy. Family planning centers in China then told the father to kill the child. The parents tried to hide the baby. Authorities located the baby and drowned it in front of the parents.

I have a friend, here in the United States, who was born in China. She has American Citizenship. She married an American. When she conceived her second child she would whisper whenever she mentioned her pregnancy. When I told her there was no need to be frightened here, she said, "You don't understand. Authorities in China will punish my parents if they learn that I have two children."

I said, "You cannot be serious. This has nothing to do with China's population. You are legally an American. You haven't been back to China in decades."

She said, "You don't know China."

So, I'm not buying into the "we are only worried about our bodies" story by pro-choice people.

 

[TexasSky]

I've never done anything of the sort. an unborn child is certainly HUMAN, I merely question the veracity of calling it a PERSON before it is self aware... and red herring all you like, that doesn't change the fact that murder is a legal term, not an ethical one.

By this theory, a baby isn't a person until at least a year of age, and really probably much older.

Self-awareness is the explicit understanding that one exists. It requires a sense of identity.

Toddlers really don't have a sense of identity.

So if that is your standard, you would be murdering toddlers.

 

[Avatar]

Yah, you're right... it's not true if the babies white.

Did you just call me a racist?

 

[SaintInChicago]

A Fuhrer has some Jews that he wants to exterminate to purify the Master Race. He, his SS Guards and his Eichman have spent many agonizing hours in careful discussion of all the options, and decide on Auschwitz, suddenly a President Truman calls them.

President Truman: Hi, I'm the Head of the Allied Forces! Just calling to let you know you can't have Auschwitzes.

Fuhrer: Umm... why not?

President Truman: Because we don't like it.

Fuhrer: So? It's not your Third Reich, it's not your Deutschlandied, it's not your decision...

President Truman: Well too bad, I've never met you before and you live thousands of miles away from me, but I feel I have a right to compel people to follow my moral precepts above their own.

Fuhrer: You do realize that this decision has absolutely nothing to do with you right? That there is no possible way my having an Auschwitz would effect you negatively right?

President Truman: Oh I understand that perfectly, still, I find your behavior, which has no effect on me whatsoever, distasteful, so no, you can't do it.

Fuhrer:...

President Truman: Ok bye now! God bless.

Listen, Allied Forces, we KNOW that you don't like Auschwitzes, So here's what you can do. You can choose not to have gas chambers and you can teach your children that genocide is morally wrong. Stay the hell out of the rest of our lives. If were not hurting you, you have NO. RIGHT. WHAT. SO. EVER. to attempt to control what we do. An Auschwitz is a serious decision and the only people that should weigh in on it are the ones directly effected by it, and the SS Guards. I don't care if you think it's immoral, you have no logical justification for intervention on this one. Stay the hell out

--------------------------
In the annals of history birth control abortion apologists will regarded in the same light as Fuhrers for denying the very humanity of others. They will be reviled as twisted, inhuman and disgusting.

 

[IzzyPop]

A wealthy Southern gentleman has some land that he wants to use to grow commercial crops. He, his wife, his brother and his accountant have spent many agonizing hours in careful discussion of all the options, and decide on slavery, suddenly a Yankee shows up on the doorway.

Yankee: Hi, I'm the Christian Right! Just calling to let you know you can't have slaves.

Southern Gentleman: Umm... why not?

Yankee: Because we don't like it.

Southern Gentleman: So? It's not your property, it's not your money, it's not your decision...

Yankee: Well too bad, I've never met you before and you live thousands of miles away from me, but I feel I have a right to compel people to follow my moral precepts above their own.

Southern Gentleman: You do realize that this decision has absolutely nothing to do with you right? That there is no possible way my having a slave would effect you negatively right?

Yankee: Oh I understand that perfectly, still, I find your behavior, which has no effect on me whatsoever, distasteful, so no, you can't do it.

Southern Gentleman:...

Yankee: Ok bye now! God bless.




Listen, Abolitionists, we KNOW that you don't like slavery, So here's what you can do. You can choose not to have slaves and you can teach your children that slavery is morally wrong. Stay the hell out of the rest of our lives. If were not hurting you, you have NO. RIGHT. WHAT. SO. EVER. to attempt to control what we do. An slave is a serious decision and the only people that should weigh in on it are the ones directly effected by it, and the accountant. I don't care if you think it's immoral, you have no logical justification for intervention on this one. Stay the hell out

Yeah. Ummm...no. See, the thing is slavery deals with causing harm to an actual person. Abortion maybe deals harm to a potential person. Huge difference there.

-------------------------
In the annals of history birth control abortion apologists will regarded in the same light as slavers for denying the very humanity of others. They will be reviled as twisted, inhuman and disgusting.

As opposed to the anti-choice people who will go down in history as the fascists they are? They will be reviled as inhuman, unfeeling, and totalitarian.

 

[Avatar]

Yeah. Ummm...no. See, the thing is slavery deals with causing harm to an actual person. Abortion maybe deals harm to a potential person. Huge difference there.

You say that as though it's a fact and we're too thick-headed to get it. It is not a fact, it is an opinion. Your opinion, not mine.

Slavery harms an actual person, abortion harms an actual person.

That, my friend, is my OPINION. Try to be honest enough to present your opinions as what they are rather than facts.

Peace out.

 

[IzzyPop]

Just something to consider.

In 1979 China passed a "one-child policy" as a means of population control. If a woman gets pregnant with a second child, and the Chinese government finds out early in the pregnancy, they will force an abortion.

Because sons are valued more in China, most women whose sonograms indicate they are carrying a female child abort the babies.

One family had 3 children when the mother got pregnant again. They did try to abort the baby, but somehow botched that. The woman gave birth to a baby boy. Family planning centers in China then told the father to kill the child. The parents tried to hide the baby. Authorities located the baby and drowned it in front of the parents.

I have a friend, here in the United States, who was born in China. She has American Citizenship. She married an American. When she conceived her second child she would whisper whenever she mentioned her pregnancy. When I told her there was no need to be frightened here, she said, "You don't understand. Authorities in China will punish my parents if they learn that I have two children."

I said, "You cannot be serious. This has nothing to do with China's population. You are legally an American. You haven't been back to China in decades."

She said, "You don't know China."

So, I'm not buying into the "we are only worried about our bodies" story by pro-choice people.

Ohhhh...I just loved being lumped in with all the other pro-choice people and having my reasons why I am what I am explained to me. Unfortunately, China and there policy on this are much closer in, an ethical stance, to pro-life than to pro-choice. See, they do not offer a choice. See the difference? The actual, existing person's rights outweigh the potential person's rights. It is a little callous, but not so much as forcing a mother into 10 months of unwanted pregnancy or forced termination of a wanted pregnancy.

 

[gengwall]

Yeah. Ummm...no. See, the thing is slavery deals with causing harm to an actual person. Abortion maybe deals harm to a potential person. Huge difference there.

There is no such thing as a "potential" person. And BTW - slaves were not considered constitutionally protected "persons" or even full human beings until the 14th amendment. So, the analogy is actually even more concrete.

As opposed to the anti-choice people who will go down in history as the fascists they are? They will be reviled as inhuman, unfeeling, and totalitarian.

Such hyperbole makes me laugh

 

[levi501]

Did you just call me a racist?

I don't know a thing about you pal, but your insecurity about it is quite telling.

 

[IzzyPop]

There is no such thing as a "potential" person. And BTW - slaves were not considered constitutionally protected "persons" or even full human beings until the 14th amendment. So, the analogy is actually even more concrete.

From a legal standpoint, this would be true if fetuses are ever granted full legal rights as human beings.

The point I was attempting to make is that the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the fetus. The mother actually exists as a person. The fetus may or may not become a person. The anti-choice crowd discounts the rights of the mother in favor of the rights of the child. I have a hard time justifying that.

Such hyperbole makes me laugh

That was the whole point.

I changed a few words but kept the sentence structure and sense of hyperbole the same from the text I was quoting to show how laughable such a statement is.

My question would be, if you found the original statement fine and mine hyperbole, what does that say about you?

 

[Renton405]

If he is in the girl's circle of support or the father, then he would have every right to have a say in it. If not, then the same applies to him as every not previously mentioned. None of our business.

No he dosen't , he has no right to say who lives and who dies. If he does he is playing God and deciding who lives and who dies because of HIS opinion. A life shouldn't have to be killed because of someone opinion.

No. The potential does not outweigh the actual.
And you are placing women into the roll of unwilling incubators. Which would make you cold hearted, immoral, and ignorant. You have no idea what is going on in this person's life. Only that you feel that the fetus in more important than the woman.

No they are both EQUAL. The life of the baby is equal to the life of the mother, as well as equal to everyone else in the world. Since you don't preach equality of peoples you are no different than a racist who says whites are better than blacks

Wrong. You are fighting to make women less than men. You are fighting to enforce your morals upon others. You are fighting to bring us into fascism.
And to be just as silly as you are being:
If the fetus has a problem with being aborted, then it only needs to speak up and let us know.

No, I am fighting that father, mother AND child including the unborn are ALL equal too each other. Ones life isn't more important than the next. They are all unique and equal in their own regard, and they have the right to live like anyone else..

It needs to speak up?? Do you know how dumb that comment makes you look? Does that mean we should kill deaf/blind people too or people with disease who cannot communicate correctly?? "Oh if they can't tell us that they don't wanna die that must mean its ok to kill them"..

Right. You wouldn't happen to have any statistics on that one, would you? I'm pretty sure that, given the political climate over the past 8 years, no abortion clinics are provided with tax dollars.

Oh really? Our tax dollars aren't forced to pay for abortions?? Ever hear of Title X?? President Bush has increased the Title X funding levels over $26,000,000 more than the last Clinton budget:

• • The Title X funding level for FY 2001, the last Clinton-influenced budget, was a total of $254 million, of which over $58 million went to planned parenthood
  • In FY 2002, George W. Bush's first full budget year, the Title X birth/population control and Planned Parenthood funding authorization increased over 11,000,000, to $265 million (HR 3061 for FY 2002, signed by President Bush on 1/10/2002)
  • In FY 2004, George W. Bush's most recently completed full budget year, the Title X birth/population control and Planned Parenthood funding authorization increased even more to $280 million, over $26,000,000 ($26 million) more than Bill Clinton's last budget year! (HR 2673 for FY 2004, signed by President Bush on 1/23/2004)

Really? Go read Freakanomics. He has some really interesting things to say about how abortion has had an effect on our society. Like lowering the crime rate and such. Interesting stuff.

Any act of violence increase the violence in society which has a ripple effect. The ripple effect abortion has has definatly increase the hurt of other people

Probably.
The irony in this sentence is absolutely delicious. You are asking others about how their morality is universal? Right after you have just shoved your own down our throats? Hy-freaking-sterical

God IS universal, because it was all created by him.. Its dumb to think something is not murder just because its legal in a few countrys. Killing Jews was legal in Germany, Im sure you consider those murders don't you??

 

[gengwall]

From a legal standpoint, this would be true if fetuses are ever granted full legal rights as human beings.

The point I was attempting to make is that the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the fetus. The mother actually exists as a person. The fetus may or may not become a person. The anti-choice crowd discounts the rights of the mother in favor of the rights of the child. I have a hard time justifying that.

Aha! But fetuses (and embryos and the unborn "at any stage of development") have been given full legal rights federally in the Unborn Victims of Violence Act. But I understand what you are saying, although I wouldn't say they "discount" the mother's rights. It has always been a balancing of rights exercise, even in Roe.

That was the whole point.

I changed a few words but kept the sentence structure and sense of hyperbole the same from the text I was quoting to show how laughable such a statement is.

My question would be, if you found the original statement fine and mine hyperbole, what does that say about you?

touche!

 

[Twilight777]

Well, I think it's wrong the fact that your KILLING a soul. A human soul that wants a life, and your just going to 'kill' it just because you don't want to. How would you feel if your mom was like, 'oh I don't want my son/daughter, whatever.' You'll be dead and you won't be here right now!

 

[gengwall]

My personal take on this whole thing is that if a scenario took place like what was originally outlined, it would be an invasion of privacy and possibly harassment. Especially, but exclusively, because the aborters would be involved in perfectly legal deliberations about a perfectly legal action. It would be no less intrusive (and illegal on my part) than if I called every couple having sex out of wed lock and told them they should all cease and desist.

Now, that does not prohibit me from expressing my views about abortion in the public forum. The aborters can not squelch my speech there; they have no constitutional right to be protected from being offended by my free and legal speech just as I have no constitutional right to be protected from being offended by their free and legal action (the abortion). We can shout at each other across the street as much as we want and neither of us have to keep quiet.

And if abortion ever did become illegal, then the state, not I, would have a right to intervene and prevent what I guess would be considered "conspiracy to commit murder" no matter how offended they might get about such intervention.

We have a good friend (single & 20) of our daughters who recently got an abortion. She didn't discuss it with her parents because they would have tried to prevent her. Ironically, they are neither pro-life nor fundimentalist by any stretch of the imagination. She did discuss it at length with my daughters even though she knows they are morally against it and consider it murder. But they know that she has the legal right and that she does not share their view on the status of the fetus, and so they were there for her in whatever way they could, including offering to go with her for emotional support (it was a very traumatic decision for her). Although they counseled her against it (counsel which was solicited), they did nothing to literally stand in her way.

You see, not every fundimentalist pro-lifer is like the picture painted in our hypothetical. In fact, very few actually are. Most care unconditionally about both the mother and the baby and do not try to impose their will on the other person.

 

[IzzyPop]

No he dosen't , he has no right to say who lives and who dies. If he does he is playing God and deciding who lives and who dies because of HIS opinion. A life shouldn't have to be killed because of someone opinion.

So you would be anti-death penalty? I seem to remember you making pro-death penalty statements in other threads. Even for disobedient children and homosexuals. That is logically inconsistent and shows a knee-jerk response to buzz words and topics as opposed to a reasoned and rational approach.

No they are both EQUAL. The life of the baby is equal to the life of the mother, as well as equal to everyone else in the world. Since you don't preach equality of peoples you are no different than a racist who says whites are better than blacks

I do not agree that all humans life is equal. Given a choice between you and my daughter, you die every time. Given a choice between an adult and a child, the child wins hands down. Given a choice between a fetus and a mother, the mother wins out. I do not see how that equates to racism. All people are equal. Their value to me is not.

No, I am fighting that father, mother AND child including the unborn are ALL equal too each other. Ones life isn't more important than the next. They are all unique and equal in their own regard, and they have the right to live like anyone else..

But you belie that statement when you tell the mother what she can and cannot do with her life in regards to abortion. She cannot live like anyone else for the duration of the unwanted pregnancy.

It needs to speak up?? Do you know how dumb that comment makes you look? Does that mean we should kill deaf/blind people too or people with disease who cannot communicate correctly?? "Oh if they can't tell us that they don't wanna die that must mean its ok to kill them"..

Which is why I prefaced it with 'To be just as silly as you are being.' I am aware that what I was saying is silly and absurd. You need to do the same.

really? Our tax dollars aren't forced to pay for abortions?? Ever hear of Title X?? President Bush has increased the Title X funding levels over $26,000,000 more than the last Clinton budget:

• • The Title X funding level for FY 2001, the last Clinton-influenced budget, was a total of $254 million, of which over $58 million went to planned parenthood
  • In FY 2002, George W. Bush's first full budget year, the Title X birth/population control and Planned Parenthood funding authorization increased over 11,000,000, to $265 million (HR 3061 for FY 2002, signed by President Bush on 1/10/2002)
  • In FY 2004, George W. Bush's most recently completed full budget year, the Title X birth/population control and Planned Parenthood funding authorization increased even more to $280 million, over $26,000,000 ($26 million) more than Bill Clinton's last budget year! (HR 2673 for FY 2004, signed by President Bush on 1/23/2004)

And no Title X funds can be used to pay for abortions. Care to try again?

act of violence increase the violence in society which has a ripple effect. The ripple effect abortion has has definatly increase the hurt of other people

So that would be a "No. I will not read anything that opposes my view point or might actually make me think outside of my comfort zone?"

IS universal, because it was all created by him.. Its dumb to think something is not murder just because its legal in a few countrys. Killing Jews was legal in Germany, Im sure you consider those murders don't you??

From a legal standpoint, I'm not sure what the law stated in Germany back then. If it were legal, then I would not consider it murder. Unethical killing, yes. Murder, no. Because murder is defined as an illegal killing. So if it is legal, it cannot be murder. See how that works?

 

[TexasSky]

Ohhhh...I just loved being lumped in with all the other pro-choice people and having my reasons why I am what I am explained to me. Unfortunately, China and there policy on this are much closer in, an ethical stance, to pro-life than to pro-choice. See, they do not offer a choice. See the difference? The actual, existing person's rights outweigh the potential person's rights. It is a little callous, but not so much as forcing a mother into 10 months of unwanted pregnancy or forced termination of a wanted pregnancy.

China's policy actually started out the same way - - as a "choice to abort" .. then it became a requirement.