I don't believe in evolution... (2)

[sdmsanjose]

Originally Posted by sdmsanjose http://www.christianforums.com/t7548635-83/#post57470943
Thank you Art!
I hope everyone that reads Clirus realizes that all Christians that have responded are opposed to Clirus except for Zongerfield. Clirus tries to manipulate scripture to make her ideology look credible.

We know that Clirus would let that person that does not believe like she does rot in the street. She would not dare touch that non-believer in Clirus's Christianity. Kind of reminds me of the Pharisees that would not touch the “unclean” and washed their self 7 times a day. Jesus ate and fellowshipped with sinners and had some of his strongest rebuke words for the self-righteous Pharisees.

Clirus responds
How could Jesus have fellowshipped with sinners?

II Corinthians 6:14 states, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with the unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Good grief Clirus, are you really that ignorant of the scriptures or are you just trying to save face and manipulate scriptures for your own ideology? Listed below is one of many scriptures that prove you are wrong.

Matthew 9
11And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Clirus, Jesus had fellowship with sinners and that scripture that states 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth may be something that you could learn about.

Jesus’ main mission was to call sinners like you to repentance. You take it upon yourself to point out judgments about whole groups of people. You might be able to have some influence if you changed your approach from judging to following Jesus’ example. You could start by realizing that you are a creature that “By the Grace of God there go I” and start being humble and have real compassion for Jesus' main goal rather than YOUR judgement of others.

Everybody that Jesus had fellowship were sinners.

1. Romans 3:23
   For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
   Romans 3:22-24 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter)
2. Romans 5:12
   Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

 

[sdmsanjose]

Originally Posted by clirus http://www.christianforums.com/t7548635-post57473468/#post57473468
Again another Straw Man Exaggeration.

I have never advocated Christians persecuting non-believers,
Let me refresh your memory:
I believe the State should have the right to refuse you employment in any leadership position such as teacher, judge, etc. because your views are not consistent with the Christian Lifestyle.

Atheists are usually socialists and pacifists, that oppose war and the death penalty, because they are the ones that should be executed. Opposition to the death penalty is a survival concept for evil people.

Are Christians to condone people that are infidels or should Christians support Civil Law that deals with infidels, even to the point of execution?

Execute-kill the infidels sound familiar. Clirus can you guess who you sound like? You can figure out who you sound like by reading the USA Today paper about someone that has somewhat of the same view as you. I am listing below a few quotes from the USA Today. Who are they talking about?



Trained in business and civil engineering, he launched his career by building infrastructure and creating jobs in the hardscrabble countries of Afghanistan and the Sudan. That was before he decided to devote his creative energy and entrepreneurial skill to destroying the "infidels."

"God says, 'You should pick up arms and kill those who are infidels,'"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-05-02-osama-bin-laden-dead_n.htm

 

[tulc]

How could Jesus have fellowshipped with sinners?

II Corinthians 6:14 states, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with the unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

...well, since He was the only non-sinner on Earth who else could He fellowship with except sinners?
tulc(just sayn')

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Another Straw Man Exaggeration.

Where is the strawman, Clirus? Stop pretending that you are being misrepresented. If you think you are, then show us where you've been misrepresented.

You just do not seem to be able to grasp the concept of separation of Church and State.

Oh, the irony.

Atheists try to make the execution of evil people to sound evil because the Atheists are evil people. I believe the execution of evil people is God's will, in order to prevent evil from overcoming good.

So now you are claiming that Atheists are unequivocally 'evil people'? If they are destined for God's wrath, then only God has the authority to exercise that wrath as he desires ('Vengeance is mine, says the Lord') Why are you trying to subvert that authority and place into the hands of fallen man?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

sdmsanjose quote

Good grief Clirus, are you really that ignorant of the scriptures or are you just trying to save face and manipulate scriptures for your own ideology?

Response

Well certainly one of us is ignorant of the scriptures.

Given that virtually no Christian has endorsed your particular interpretation of the Bible, I know where my wager lies.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The Clirus Drama

I believe Clirus saw CF as a platform which she could use to preach her own particular brand of religious belief intermingled with her political ideology. This included, but was not limited to, persecuting infidels by barring their access to positions of leadership in society. Forcing them back into the proverbial closet. Killing them even, and then claiming that they were not killed because they were executed. Killing civilian men, women and children and then claiming that they were neither civilians nor killed because their deaths were authorized in war.

In a sense, she stepped into a firestorm. But one of her own making. She expected to encounter some opposition from Atheists, whose comments she could simply ignore as the ramblings of obstinate unbelievers. But what she did not count on was the rebuke of fellow Christians who asserted that Clirusian ideology was antithetical to their Christ.

When this rebuke came, rather than defend her positions, she developed a modus operandi that allowed her to effectively ignore the critiques of fellow Christians and continue preaching her socio-political creed under the auspices of her religious beliefs. She would claim, for example, that she was the victim of repeated and ongoing misrepresentations, even though the alleged 'strawmen' were corroborated by a multitude of her own statements from across numerous threads on this board. She would then open a new thread and relay the same message, sometimes word for word, and mysteriously escape any accusation of spam. Inexorably, however, her ideology continued to be challenged, by Christians, by Atheists, by Agnostics, by Deists, by Pantheists, by Jews, by Muslims... And yet none of this, it appears, has done anything to shake the firmness with which she holds on to her opinions. No single theological reason, no one Scriptural verse, no particular well-thought-out argument has prompted her to reconsider those opinions. Not once can I recall her ever admitting that she was wrong about anything. And yet her abysmal failure to garner support from Christians should have been enough to prompt serious self-reflection.

 

[sdmsanjose]

The Clirus Drama

I believe Clirus saw CF as a platform which she could use to preach her own particular brand of religious belief intermingled with her political ideology. This included, but was not limited to, persecuting infidels by barring their access to positions of leadership in society. Forcing them back into the proverbial closet. Killing them even, and then claiming that they were not killed because they were executed. Killing civilian men, women and children and then claiming that they were neither civilians nor killed because their deaths were authorized in war.

In a sense, she stepped into a firestorm. But one of her own making. She expected to encounter some opposition from Atheists, whose comments she could simply ignore as the ramblings of obstinate unbelievers. But what she did not count on was the rebuke of fellow Christians who asserted that Clirusian ideology was antithetical to their Christ.

When this rebuke came, rather than defend her positions, she developed a modus operandi that allowed her to effectively ignore the critiques of fellow Christians and continue preaching her socio-political creed under the auspices of her religious beliefs. She would claim, for example, that she was the victim of repeated and ongoing misrepresentations, even though the alleged 'strawmen' were corroborated by a multitude of her own statements from across numerous threads on this board. She would then open a new thread and relay the same message, sometimes word for word, and mysteriously escape any accusation of spam. Inexorably, however, her ideology continued to be challenged, by Christians, by Atheists, by Agnostics, by Deists, by Pantheists, by Jews, by Muslims... And yet none of this, it appears, has done anything to shake the firmness with which she holds on to her opinions. No single theological reason, no one Scriptural verse, no particular well-thought-out argument has prompted her to reconsider those opinions. Not once can I recall her ever admitting that she was wrong about anything. And yet her abysmal failure to garner support from Christians should have been enough to prompt serious self-reflection.

Excellent summary Art!

But what she did not count on was the rebuke of fellow Christians who asserted that Clirusian ideology was antithetical to their Christ.

I believe that Jesus is who He says He is. I also believe that we Christians are to stand up to any Christian that is manipulating and misrepresenting the teachings of Jesus. I am not going to wink at any Christian that puts a bumper sticker of their car that says “Honk if you love Jesus” and give them a pass just because they say the word Christian all the time.



Frankly, I get more troubled by a person claiming to be a Christian who tries to use Christianity to promote their political agenda and their own ideology. I have more respect for the non-Christians if they do the same thing because they do not believe the teaching of Jesus the same way that believers do; however, I don't even see the non-Christians judging everyone like Clirus does.

I have noticed that the non-believers are much more rational, sensitive, open minded, and compassionate than Clirus. I for one do not want Clirus as representing Christians on this forum as to me she is an embarrassment.

Again Art, you gave a very good summary. Too bad Clirus will see all of it as the “Evil” persecuting her as she puts herself in the position of God and judges all kinds of groups of people.

 

[Charlie V]

I saw my father's legs. If you don't know what that means read my previous posts. That was a tragedy.

I will not cry over the Zongerfield tragedy, that someone on a message board disagreed with him. So sad though.

Charlie

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Anybody else notice that he started posting in the "Depression" board?

 

[Ringo84]

(Never mind)
Ringo

 

[Nathan Poe]

Anybody else notice that he started posting in the "Depression" board?

Why wouldn't he? His schtick works better with a more vulnerable audience.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Charlie
Your father suffered a GREAT injustice. You father also seems like a GREAT man!
I hope you know that Zongerfield is a sick man and his cutting comments to you and your father do nothing but contrast his lack of wisdom with the class and integrity that you and your father have.

At least we finally have a president that led the political march to give every American health insurance so that no American will have to suffer the heath injustice that your father did. In addition our President seems to be able to stand up to the big GREEDY corporations that have no mercy on working Americans. If Obama changes I will campaign against him but right now I give credit where credit is due.

I know there are some good corporations and that the free enterprise system has worked well in most cases. However, we need not think that mankind is immune to greed and so we need to have regulations to keep the people like John D Rockefeller from monopoly and the greedy Wall Street and financial institutions from raping the American economy like they did in the last few years.

Finally Charlie, it is encouraging to see a man like your father that kept his integrity until the end. It is also encouraging to see, in spite of your great pain, your ability to say the words below is quite remarkable.

Charlie to Zongerfield
I wish you enlightenment, and I forgive, and will pray for you.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Stop trying to be right, and try to find the light instead.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I believe that Jesus is who He says He is. I also believe that we Christians are to stand up to any Christian that is manipulating and misrepresenting the teachings of Jesus. I am not going to wink at any Christian that puts a bumper sticker of their car that says “Honk if you love Jesus” and give them a pass just because they say the word Christian all the time.

Frankly, I get more troubled by a person claiming to be a Christian who tries to use Christianity to promote their political agenda and their own ideology. I have more respect for the non-Christians if they do the same thing because they do not believe the teaching of Jesus the same way that believers do; however, I don't even see the non-Christians judging everyone like Clirus does.

I have noticed that the non-believers are much more rational, sensitive, open minded, and compassionate than Clirus. I for one do not want Clirus as representing Christians on this forum as to me she is an embarrassment.

Again Art, you gave a very good summary. Too bad Clirus will see all of it as the “Evil” persecuting her as she puts herself in the position of God and judges all kinds of groups of people.

That is, I believe, the most theologically damaging element of Clirus' ideology. It is premised on the belief that sinful man can rightly execute the wrath of God on sinners and unbelievers. That man can be the arbiter of God's justice system even though Scripture plainly states that God alone is the true and righteous judge of human hearts. The ideology supposes, therefore, that human beings can see into one anothers souls. But how is that possible? Surely only God's gaze can pierce the human heart and discern with veracious accuracy its content. Do we sinners have a God-like view of each others souls? Can we sinners be trusted to act as arbiters of God's wrath when, by virtue of being sinners, we have all earned that wrath? Is this not an example of the blind leading the blind?

 

[TerranceL]

Anybody else notice that he started posting in the "Depression" board?

Such drama.

 

[Assyrian]

Political Spectrum of Christian Forums in September 2010

Extreme Left (Socialism, Communism, ect.) - 19.74%
Liberal - 25.00%
Conservative - 11.84%
Libertarian (Constitutionalist, etc) - 17.11%
Extreme Right (Authoritarian, Fascist, ect) - 2.63%
Other (please explain) - 23.68%

Summary

Left wing 44.74%
Center 25.00%
Right wing 19.74%
Undecided 23.68%

Interesting perspective where liberal is left wing and socialism is extreme left. In the UK the conservatives are the main right wing party while the Liberal Democrats used to be in the centre before they shacked up with David Cameron and disappeared down the plughole.

So, from the perspective of, well, anywhere other than America we have
Left wing 19.74%
Center 11.84%
Right wing 31.58%
Other and Undecided 23.68%

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Sinful man cannot rightly determine good and evil, and that is why sinful man needs God to determine good and evil.

Using the definitions of good and evil as determined by God, and by having their sins forgiven, Christians can and must rebuke/execute evil people under Civil Law.

No human can see into anothers soul, but the outward action of any person can be judged relative the the good and evil as defined in the Bible.

No person should ever be executed for spiritual sin, but people who commit physical sin must be rebuked/executed under Civil Law in order to preserve society.

There is no righteousness unless evil people are punished for their evil actions. Ultimately God sends evil people to Hell for their evil, but society must also punish evil people to survive.

The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good people (Christians) to do nothing.

First, the Bible is not the only source of moral guidance.

Second, you have just admitted that you endorse a policy of Christians executing others through Civil Law. So much for that 'strawman exaggeration' you keep talking about.

Third, if you read your Bible you'll come across a passage that reads 'Vengeance is mine, says the Lord'. God is judge, and you are not an arbiter of his wrath on sinners.

And finally, if someone is to be executed in the name of preserving society, then there ought to be a legitimate reason for such an action. You've provided no such reason for the killing of Atheists, homosexuals, disobedient children or other sinners that you believe should be put to the sword. Your inner threat evaluation meter is broken.

 

[sdmsanjose]

sdmsanjose quote
At least we finally have a president that led the political march to give every American health insurance so that no American will have to suffer the heath injustice that your father did. In addition our President seems to be able to stand up to the big GREEDY corporations that have no mercy on working Americans. If Obama changes I will campaign against him but right now I give credit where credit is due.


Clirus repy
AND YOU ACCUSE ME OF HAVING A POLITICAL AGENDA!

No Christians should be vote for any Democrat because the Democratic Party supports Socialism and Atheism which are contrary to the Bible.

My comment about our current president was in response to Charlie’s post. Charlie’s dad did not have the funds to be treated and he died. Obama led the way for all Americans to some day have health coverage so that people like Charlie’s dad does not die. My statement was not so much a political agenda as it was to possibly give Charlie some hope that people like his dad may not have to die due to no funds for health care.

You are consumed by your political agenda. If you really want to be honest with yourself just check your posts and see how many posts you talk about your political agenda. You can check mine also and you will find that you have more than 10 times more posts about your political agenda than me even speaking about anything political

Quote of Clirus
At least, my political agenda is consistent with the Bible because I oppose Socialism (ObamaCare) and Atheism (repeal of don't ask, don't tell).

You lack wisdom and have very little understanding of the Bible. Jesus does not say that the people that "...oppose socialim" will "..inherit the kindom" but those that have compassion on the sick, the hungry, and the thirsty shall inherit the kingdom. REF: Matthew 25

The difference in your political agenda and my statement about health care is that I give credit to whoever does good regardless on political party. You political agenda concentrates on your judgment as to who the state should execute. To add insult to injury you try to manipulate scriptures to make your executions look like they have God’s blessings. Your political agenda comes first then you try to manipulate scriptures.

My political statement was about how our government is trying to help people and your political agenda is how the government should execute people according to your ideology.

Clirus, instead of having a little compassion for Charlie you took this opportunity to preach your political ideology about socialism. Your spirit seems to really get excited about judgments and executions. Please do not post the same old line that you are presenting God’s righteousness. Clirus, who appointed you to take God’s place and judge so many groups of people as detriments to society or worthy only of execution?

 

[Charlie V]

Unsubscribing now... thanks to those who supported me, forgiveness and prayers for those who didn't.

Charlie

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I do rely on an inner threat evaluation, but rather on the Bible.

You rely on your interpretation of the Bible to justify your inner threat evaluations, but that interpretation is certainly not flawless. So yes, you do have an inner threat evaluation, and it is terribly misaligned with the actual threat that certain persons and groups pose.

 

[DaisyDay]

Political Spectrum of Christian Forums in September 2010

Extreme Left (Socialism, Communism, ect.) - 19.74%
Liberal - 25.00%
Conservative - 11.84%
Libertarian (Constitutionalist, etc) - 17.11%
Extreme Right (Authoritarian, Fascist, ect) - 2.63%
Other (please explain) - 23.68%

Summary

Left wing 44.74%
Center 11.84%
Right wing 19.74%
Undecided 23.68%

Is that honest?