I don't believe in evolution... (2)

Zong has been ignoring my posts! What a shame. I guess a small-time atheist such as myself isn't as big a catch as Poe. Zong probably wants to add "the guy who invented Poe's law" next to Walt in his collection of salvation stories.

Zongerfield said:

I assumed he was an American living in Norway.

It's bad to assume, but now it makes perfect sense to me. I know why he is the way he is, and feels the way he does about politics.

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You still know nothing, and are too proud to admit this.

(Zongerfield appreciates this, but still has not forgiven you for your earlier attempts to get under his skin. And for getting others to turn on him. But eventually Zongerfield will forgive as he does all those who harbor animosity toward him).

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(Poe finds it very telling that Zongerfield is too proud to admit or even realize that he is the author of his own animosity. Poe finds it even more telling that Zongerfield is unable/unwilling to accept responsibility for his own actions, instead preferring to portray himself as the victim. Poe finds it most telling of all that Zongerfield would rather dispense his own meaningless sham of "forgiveness" than ask for some of the real thing from the others he has offended.)

Lion Hearted Man said:

Zong has been ignoring my posts! What a shame. I guess a small-time atheist such as myself isn't as big a catch as Poe. Zong probably wants to add "the guy who invented Poe's law" next to Walt in his collection of salvation stories.

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But of course, Lion -- no offense, but I'm the big fish here; only my conversion will bring Zongerfield a level of glory he thinks he deserves.

A pity he's too proud to realize that he's not up for the task. I wonder how many of Walt's friends he insulted before getting that "success"?

Zongerfield said:

I assumed he was an American living in Norway.

It's bad to assume, but now it makes perfect sense to me. I know why he is the way he is, and feels the way he does about politics.

Click to expand...

I suspect you really don't, but I'm hoping you will eventually.

(Zongerfield appreciates this, but still has not forgiven you for your earlier attempts to get under his skin. And for getting others to turn on him. But eventually Zongerfield will forgive as he does all those who harbor animosity toward him).

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Gee...I was under the impression you'd already "forgiven" everyone for all those imaginary slights you seem to see whenever anyone disagrees with you, a long time ago. Was that not true?
tulc(will now drown his sorrow in a big cup of coffee)

Lion Hearted Man said:

Zong has been ignoring my posts! What a shame. I guess a small-time atheist such as myself isn't as big a catch as Poe. Zong probably wants to add "the guy who invented Poe's law" next to Walt in his collection of salvation stories.

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DANG!

Zongerfield said:

I've been the only one trying to bring people together. I was the one who established the prayer poll. I was the one who pleaded with others to get them to pray and reflect on the words they use, the things they say, to other people.

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And I applaud such an effort if sincere. Which is why I have pointed at poorly phrased statements you have used and repeated. Such as your signature and your constant forgive and pray statements. Maybe you mean well, but it is not received well.

Zongerfield said:

I didn't refuse the offer to pray, I just - out or respect for Poe - suggested that we wait until he is ready to pray. I am for inclusion, not exclusion. Poe was willing to pray at one point, but we were too aggressive with our Christian sub-dialect and he became disaffected. I've been working hard to restore his trust in Christians.

Click to expand...

Okay. Will you pray with me?

Zongerfield said:

You say you are a Christian, I believe you. I have no reason not to believe you. What I do know for sure, is that God loves you regardless of your political beliefs.

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Good. Let me ask you a followup question not REALLY related, but still. What characterizes a true follower of Jesus Christ?

Zongerfield said:

I don't know whether or not you are a liberal wastrel. Although, if you want to find out, ask yourself the following questions:

1. Are you unemployed, if so, for how long?
2. Do you accept unemployment benefits, if so, for how long?
3. Are you on welfare, if so, for how long?
4. Do you support gay marriage?
5. Do you use medicaid/medicare?
6. What tax percentage is fair for the rich?
7. What's your stance on illegal immigration?
8. Should the government pay for college?
9. Should we implement cap and trade?

Click to expand...

1. Nope. I have been, for about 6 months back in 04-05. Now I'm a student, former IT consultant. Now working on a master's of science and technology. Focus: Bionanotechnology. I am yet to select a specific field for my thesis. Loooong story short: I still have three years left of my pre-defined programme, which is so new no-one has completed it yet. I don't like to boast, but I am immensely proud to be a part of the programme. Over a thousand applicants each year for 30 places. All the most qualified students in Norway, above even medicine (which my wife is studying btw). And: I got a place, I even had a not insignificant qualification margin.
2. I have, after I finished my first degree. I went to the army - became a corporal and enjoyed my time there, but jumped back to civilian life and after that I couldn't get a job for a while. No real market. I accepted benefits for about half a year.
3. no. My mother is though. And one of my sisters. I guess you're not interested in why, but here goes: Mom: Cancer. She survived, but can't work now, she is not at all well though she is cancer free. Sister: Got severely sick after eating the wrong stuff during aid work in Costa Rica. Hence: I DO support the system.
4. I do not support forcing religious organizations to perform wedding ceremonies for people they do not want to perform them for. Provided both are consenting human adults who are not forced into marriage I do not oppose the rights of an organization to marry them. I have a problem with arranged marriage, or marriage between people who cannot give their consent legally. Other than that...
5. Define rich. I'll probably end up at the cap after my degree: 50%. I have no problem with that and happily pay it. IN part because I know the money will be well spent on other people, not a war machine.
6. The norwegian equivalent, yes. Everyone [here] does. And it's great Perfect? No. But still pretty awesome. Universal healthcare ftw! I'm also privately insured through my union. (Yes, even students can join unions here, if they can't in the US)
7. Laws should be followed. But when someone is in dire need a human life is more worth than bureaucracy.
8. Yes! Most emphatically YES!
9. Cap and trade? It's a decent thing, aye. Not enough by far, but a step in the right direction. Answer: Yes!

So... What's the verdict? Yes? No?

Zongerfield said:

I assumed he was an American living in Norway.

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Nope. Married to one though. Also studied at a US school for a while.

Zongerfield said:

It's bad to assume, but now it makes perfect sense to me. I know why he is the way he is, and feels the way he does about politics.

Click to expand...

I sincerely doubt you know that Zongerfield. In fact I'm quite sure you don't.

Now, if you do the following you'll possibly have grounds to understand it:

1. Live in South America or Asia for a while (n years). Work among the poorest of the poor. See how they live, and know the lifestyle which is all they can afford will likely kill you. I know several people who have gotten permanent problems from aid work. My best and first tip: Do NOT(!) eat food you're uncertain about. EVER. My sister is one example, my wife another, a couple of friends as well. All with varying degrees of damage, all damaged. And: Don't think they (the natives) get through life without the same problems my friends and family got from it.
2. Read history concerning the actions of the west in said continent, also check actions of the wealthy elite.
3. Read the history of success nations to determine how they gained their success: Suggested loci: Scandinavia, England, France, Spain. Interesting possible subfocus: The effect of sudden wealth influx to Spain during colonial times, and the method by which said wealth was received. Consider other nations with similar influx of wealth such as Norway during the 60s or other nations both in Latin America and the middle east. Observe which models were employed and their effects.
4. Sit down and monitor statistics for nations of interest. Look for correlation between policies, freedoms for the people, rights for the people, national stability and progress for the entire nation, not just the elite. Also check for rich-poor gap by a fixed definition for both. Also monitor consumption patterns, wealth distribution, charity both public and private.

Do that, Zongerfield, then you will be on your way to understand why I think the way I do concerning politics. I have not included bible verses in this text but be assured: I can bring plenty to bear.

Zongerfield said:

(Zongerfield appreciates this, but still has not forgiven you for your earlier attempts to get under his skin. And for getting others to turn on him. But eventually Zongerfield will forgive as he does all those who harbor animosity toward him).

Click to expand...

Faith Guardian wonders why Zongerfield won't apologize to Tulc, Poe, Terrance and others.

Quote of Zongerfield
I don't know whether or not you are a liberal wastrel. Although, if you want to find out, ask yourself the following questions:

Are you unemployed, if so, for how long?
Do you accept unemployment benefits, if so, for how long?
Are you on welfare, if so, for how long?
Do you support gay marriage?
Do you use medicaid/medicare?
What tax percentage is fair for the rich?
What's your stance on illegal immigration?
Should the government pay for college?
Should we implement cap and trade?

Click to expand...

Do you use medicaid/medicare?

WOW, Zongerfield you just called the elderly and disabled a liberal wastrel (Lazy and wasteful).

Zongerfield, you are more interested in your sick political ideology than having any compassion on the elderly, sick, and disabled. You call yourself Christ like? How pathetic your hypocrisy is!

Zongerfield said:

Forgiveness is what the Lord teaches us. I am not trying to insult people. Please think about things from my perspective.

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You use condescending terms like 'liberal wastrel' to generically describe those with whom you disagree with and you aren't here to insult people?

Zongerfield said:

The road to hell was paved with good intentions.

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Hm. Perhaps.

Zongerfield said:

NO, you've been hostile towards me on several occasions. I'm feeling depressed and I can't find it in my heart right now to forgive anyone. I can't sleep. It's 2 am my time. I just had a drink for the first time in years.

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I cannot see how I have been unduely harsh to you Z. If I have, show me where and I can either apologize if I have done wrong or elaborate on why I said what I did to rectify any misinterpretation. You're a brother in the faith and you say you are my friend. Well, friends do give advice even when such advice is not wanted. My friends help me on my journey in life and I intend to help them. How can I do less for those who are near my heart? I have in fact tried to do this with you, but you just insult me and the others here.

Maybe you just should have asked forgiveness? It could be you're feeling guilty Zongerfield.

Now I should add, given that last line: If being on here drives you to drink and you have a drinking problem: GET OFF-LINE NOW! This forum is actually kinder than several I've been to and I can practically guarantee you'll be faced with far harsher behavior in many to most other boards. So: If you have a drinking problem: GET OFF-LINE! I could moderate myself (I will never agree with you but I could stop responding and ignore you) but there are many people here and you'll always regardless of what I do meet people who will call you on your behavior. So, with that in mind my one and only suggestion is to GET OFF-LINE IF YOU HAVE A DRINKING PROBLEM!
Alright buddy? Don't want anyone back into drinking here. Alright? Better to not be here at all in that case. I don't mind a drink myself (I stop at one though) but alcoholism is not something I would like to see. Whatever drinks you have are drunk because you choose to though Z. Don't push that blame on others.

Zongerfield said:

A. Bears witness and accepts Jesus as his/her Lord and Savior.

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Hm. I would probably answer that a little differently: What about the fruits of the spirit? What about loving one's enemies?

I like Keith Green's somewhat simple definition:
Someone who loves the Lord with all his heart and who loves everybody else as much as he loves himself. I think Keith also said "Someone who's bananas for Jesus". I know plenty of people who are very loudly proclaiming their faith as 'bearing witness' but don't show the fruits of the spirit, much as described in Matthew 25.

Zongerfield said:

A. No. You served your country. Your a lib, but not a wastrel.

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Thank you. Sort of. I guess.

Zongerfield said:

I was right. Revisionist's history, Gini coefficient, antipathy for the wealthy and a overwrought sympathy for third world Asia. No shocker there.

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You haven't checked a thing, have you? And you just conclude that from no basis whatsoever. Revisionist history? How would you even say that when you don't know what I have read Zongerfield?

Zongerfield said:

I am keenly aware of how you've come to your conclusions.

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Okay. Again, I really don't believe you are. But hey, I'll bite: How have I come to that conclusion? Come on, tell me. Please.

Zongerfield said:

I showed this thread to a friend and he made it very clear that I am being attacked, that I am being bullied, laughed at - which is maybe why I can't sleep. I don't know. I see darkness.

Click to expand...

Perhaps it's guilt, Zongerfield. Maybe I've been too harsh, and if so I apologize. It has not been my intention to be overly harsh but to be a brother pointing out where a brother has stumbled and fallen Zongerfield. In would expect any Christian to listen to his or her fellow believers when criticism of behavior and stance are brought to bear. When people criticize me and I find it to be valid criticism I do my best to change. I trust this will continue, and I have an open invitation to please tell me what I do wrong if I do something wrong.
You know, it's OK to reject said criticism, if it's found flawed, but one should certainly listen. I try to do so myself and I expect no less from others.

And here's one problem I have with your posts. You keep on forgiving everyone for an animosity I don't see. Maybe I am being rude, or a bad person. If I am I don't see it. If and when someone points it out to me that I have failed or sinned I try to rectify that and apologize. However; Several posters here pointed to where you hurt their feelings and how you've done them wrong. Yet you have not apologized, you have not attempted any form of reconciliation Zongerfield. Or if you have I've missed it. In fact in response to the criticism you actually added insult to injury by adding your offending text to your signature to be there for every post from then on. In addition to what's in your posts. Again: I don't think your intentions were impure, but like you yourself said: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Here's an example of you misinterpreting wildly. Take my encouraging you to seek someone who are skilled at communication and you then falsely ranting about being drugged down by a psychiatrist, and also adding atheism and socialism and homosexuality. Where did that come from? So at least as far as that post goes you've been deeply insulted by something that was neither intended nor said. I'm sorry about that misinterpretation and I hope it's clear now what I intended to say. But it was not at all an attack. It was intended as a friendly suggestion to save all who encounter you from hurt.

And by the way, it's not something I'm suggesting that I wouldn't do myself. I've had several courses on presentation techniques and communication in specific situations. So if you're wanting some help in presenting data to a crowd or presenting something or other in a non-religious setting I can actually teach you as I've taught others. But this kind of informal communication stuff... I'm not too good at it so I won't offer my own services there.

Zongerfield said:

The road to hell was paved with good intentions.

Click to expand...

And that is the road you're currently on.

NO, you've been hostile towards me on several occasions. I'm feeling depressed and I can't find it in my heart right now to forgive anyone. I can't sleep. It's 2 am my time. I just had a drink for the first time in years.

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You don't take failure well, then.

I showed this thread to a friend and he made it very clear that I am being attacked, that I am being bullied, laughed at - which is maybe why I can't sleep. I don't know. I see darkness.

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Your "friend" has convinced you that you're a victim, thus giving you an excuse not to take responsibility for your own mistakes.

clirus said:

Zongerfield quote

I showed this thread to a friend and he made it very clear that I am being attacked, that I am being bullied, laughed at - which is maybe why I can't sleep. I don't know. I see darkness.

Response

Having had your first battle with the forces of evil, it is understandable that you are feeling depressed. A common tactic used by evil people is bulling. They think that numbers equals truthfulness. All it indicates to me is that Heaven will not be crowded (maybe 166,000 is the correct number).

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Well, there you have it, Zongerfield -- tulc, FG, me... we're all evil.

clirus would love nothing more than to feed your victim mentality -- but in the end, it's your choice whether you let her or not.

Clirus:
You say he has had a battle with evil.
I am concerned by this because it appears you label everyone outside yourself evil if they do not agree with you. I wonder if you have considered the uncomfortable truth that all of us have evil sides to ourselves, evil which we must recognize, help each others see and duly excise from our lives.

Yes, doing so is uncomfortable, even painful. But it is a process we must renew daily, and it is even more painful the more we refuse to deal with it.

You call yourself hated because your brothers and sisters in the faith point to inconsistencies and problems with your viewpoint. Big problems. And I wonder, have you ever once thought "I am a sinful human being, maybe I am sinning? Maybe I am wrong?

Clirus, what if you are? Have you considered doing as I - and others - have asked and go to see a priest about this? I would recommend trying two or three from widely different congregations to see if your stance has hold. That is one thing I did when I battled with creationism. I approached several clergymen and women from different backgrounds and asked them.

Yes, it's painful to accept the sinful nature of us humans. But it must be done. Like I said, if I have been unduly harsh Zongerfield has my apologies. But the core of my message stays the same: He - and you - have sinned. There's nothing extraordinary in that and it hardly places you below any other human being. BUT: It is something which must be dealt with. Painful? Aye. It can be. And that's unfortunate. Surgery is also painful, but when said surgery can excise an evil which will kill, for example a cancer tumor, it is absolutely vital that it be done nevertheless. Pain or no pain.

I wonder at this because it seems to me, and feel free to correct me, that you're not even open to the possibility that you might have done wrong. To me this seems very much like what I was told during the time I worked with satanists: Don't worry and just do whatever you please. There is nothing you can do that is wrong if your basis is your own pleasure".
I don't like that approach, at all.

clirus said:

Having had your first battle with the forces of evil, it is understandable that you are feeling depressed. A common tactic used by evil people is bulling. They think that numbers equals truthfulness. All it indicates to me is that Heaven will not be crowded (maybe 166,000 is the correct number).

Click to expand...

You are implying that some of your fellow Christians, those who disagree with you, are part of the 'forces of evil' and that they are 'evil people'?

By the way, you continue to dodge my question. What's so difficult about it that you feel the need to avoid it?

Art Vandelay said:

You are implying that some of your fellow Christians, those who disagree with you, are part of the 'forces of evil' and that they are 'evil people'?

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And let's never forget what clirus feels needs to be done with "evil people."

Clirus: It's not for Jesus' sake people disagree with you. It's the opposite. Precisely because your stance and Jesus' stance aren't the same at all.

And what's this about BB and ToE. You haven't shown us you know what either IS.

You see, if you WERE persecuted for being a christian then it would be for speaking up for the poor. For caring for the sick. For advocating mercy, compassion, love in a world which doesn't want it.

You're advocating mass murder. Hardly loving one's enemy. Hardly humble. Hardly peaceful.

What fruits of the spirit are you showing, Clirus? Please, show us which ones you exhibit?





You want us dead. I am assuming that you are consistent enough to want me dead for the sin of being a socialistic liberal "evolutionist". So:
You want us dead. Are you surprised that we don't agree with that?

clirus said:

To faith guardian

You and I have major disagreements.

I believe your attitude on homosexuality is a "soft on sin" approach.

I believe your attitude on poverty is a "soft on sin" approach. In our previous discussions about the poor people in South America you tried to justify the poor and justify that they ate cocoa leaves, drank white rum and worshiped other gods.

I pray for a Damascus Road experience for you, because I believe God could use you in a mighty way.

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And, as I recall, you denied the very existence of the faithful poor, claiming that there are no Christians in the world who are at this very moment suffering from poverty. That isn't a 'hard on sin' approach; that is ridiculousness.

But never mind these past absurdities, the fact of the matter is that you are currently refusing to answer my question: Post #643: You never answered my question, from a while back, about what you would do if an Atheist were in a burning house and you, and only you, could save them. Since you believe that feeding sick and hungry Atheists is evil, then what do you believe about saving his life?

clirus said:

To faith guardian

You and I have major disagreements.

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That's to put it mildly. You want me dead, right? I don't want to be killed.
And what's actually more important to me: You want others dead, I don't want those for whom Jesus gave His life to die. Jesus loves them, and so should we. You know Clirus, that's one major difference between you and me. You'd kill others. When I joined the army - I remember specifically when I made the decision: Standing by a mass grave which formerly held hundreds of men and women killed by the nazis I decided that yes. Some things are worth dying for. Preventing THIS is worth giving one's own life for. Picking up my assault rifle from then on became a statement to me: Never again.

I believe your attitude on homosexuality is a "soft on sin" approach.

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My attitude on homosexuality is the same as it is for most things: Is the person in question in need of Jesus? Yes. Is said person someone for whom Jesus gave His life? Yes. So who am I to show them anything but love?

Yeah, God is a God of righteousness. That's very true. But what you promote as such isn't righteousness Clirus. I'm not sure what it is precisely, but it's not righteousness.

clirus said:

I believe your attitude on poverty is a "soft on sin" approach. In our previous discussions about the poor people in South America you tried to justify the poor and justify that they ate cocoa leaves, drank white rum and worshiped other gods.

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Cocoa leaves? Coca, Clirus. And as I tried to explain in moderation they aren't dangerous, no more than a strong cup of coffee with less sideeffects. In excess however... That's another story. It can let you push your body until it breaks because you drain reserves too far. And that's where the problem arises. Nothing is good in excess though.

And Clirus, I did not justify it. I explained why. I told you a little about how business owners forced rum on their employees, got them into debt, got them alcoholized as deliberate control measures intended to create de-facto slavery. All in the name of profit. I can tell you more. There are cases where soldiers have gone in and killed hundreds of workers for nothing more than to set an example. At the behest of corporations based in the US or Europe mass murder has happened. It's a long time ago, but nevertheless. Even in the 80s Texaco knowingly dumped toxins and residue into local water supplies killing several locals. Why? To save on storage and safe disposal. Is being enfuriated over that being "soft on sin"? Clirus, what crime did the poor people whose water was poisoned do? For what sin did they die? Their own? Or perhaps the monster who wanted some more money at the expense of some poor peoples' lives?

As for other gods, Clirus, they're Christians. Often devout. Over 90% are Christians, where do you get 'other gods' from?

Funny thing, the business owners are usually also "christians". From the US, or Europe. Or they are sometimes domestic. But to me it seems their god is money, not God.

clirus said:

I pray for a Damascus Road experience for you, because I believe God could use you in a mighty way.

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And you want a reverse damascus? To ensure that God will use me to further your case of slaughter and damnation Clirus?