I desperately need valid proof of creationism.

Justatruthseeker

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Hello,

Creationists often say that the entire universe was created in six literal 24-hour days some 6,000 years ago. With teachings like this, they misrepresent the Bible, which says that God created the heavens and the earth “in the beginning”—at some unstated point before the more specific creative “days” began. (Genesis 1:1) Significantly, the Genesis account shows that the expression “day” is used in a flexible sense. At Genesis 2:4, the entire period of six days described in the preceding chapter is spoken of as only one day. Logically, these were, not literal days of 24 hours, but long periods of time. Each of these epochs evidently lasted thousands of years. Also in Genesis 2:3 God states that he proceeded to rest and has been since the seventh day began. So when the Bible uses the words "days" in the Genesis account, it isn't referring to a literal day but to an extended period one. Example is when someone says "Back in my day..." They aren't referring to a specific day but to a period that encompassed a long period of time. The Bible and Science don't contradict each other as many like to think. The Bible has just been misrepresented in many cases. Creationists, sometimes known as Fundamentalists, do not concord with what the Bible teaches in the Genesis account.

They also have a habit of believing those days were not representative of creative acts. Hence all one needs do is look up the meaning of the Hebrew word "hayah" the second word of the second verse of the Bible. There have been 6 creations and 5 destruction's, man part of the sixth creation. Soon there will be a sixth destruction and a seventh and final creation. The water and darkness that enveloped the earth before the creation of man led to the destruction of the dinosaurs.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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First of all, not sure what you mean by "aware". Aware of what? I was "aware" that "evolution is a fact" for most of my life (as well as being an atheist) until relatively recently when I decided to take a step back and take another look at the issue. I could say that you're the one who's not "aware" but that would be condescending and arrogant so I won't.

Also, regarding "quote mining": It's a completely legitimate tactic to use the statements of one's opponents to make a point. Everyone does it. And if you're a creationist, you're almost forced to do it regularly since the great majority of researchers in the sciences are evolutionists. Of course, you can use the quotes of creationists as well, but then people will say they don't matter because they're not "real" scientists. You can't win lol. More often than not, accusations of "quote mining" are simply bizzare.

The problem would be quoting out of context. But I maintain that this is definitely not true for the case in point. And the expanded quote you show only further strengthens the point. Embarrassment, uncomfortable paradox...It's not hard to see there's something important going on here...Gradualism not "seen" in the rocks...So where exactly am I guilty of this "quote mining" you speak of?

But here's something interesting...You claim that the modern theory of evolution does not require gradualism (that's probably why "evo devo" and the so-called third way of evolution is gaining in popularity as an alternative theory). Not only that, but apparently the fossil record is exactly what you'd expect it to be.

Here is how I see it, and how anyone not committed to evolution is bound to see it: You didn't find the fossils you were looking for, the missing fossils Darwin saw as a problem but expected would show up sooner or later. But lo and behold, there's something called the modern theory of evolution which actually doesn't require those particular fossils. In fact, the lack of those fossils is actually evidence of evolution! And since you already know evolution is true (you didn't explain how you know this) and evolution is happening (again, you didn't tell us how), this theory must be the right one, obviously. It's exactly what you'd expect. Statis? Evidence of evolution. Abrupt change? Evidence of evolution. Absence of evidence becomes...evidence. All you need is a new, ad hoc revision of your theory.

When you have a theory such that every imaginable fact can fit into it, you've got a problem. And as far as the fossil record showing evolution, I beg to differ. It's not just a lack of fossils that's the problem. The fossils are totally out of whack. Here are just a few problems:

- the famous Tiktaalik: "Trackways said to be 18 million years older than Tiktaalik, showing digits and alternating steps...These results force us to reconsider our whole picture of the transition from fish to land animals..." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100107114420.htm

- “although most textbooks include some sort of speculation on the evolutionary origin of feathers ... [a] morass of contradictory theories and muddy thinking ... occurs in ... much of the literature on this subject” - Dr. Klotz

- "Until now we had assumed that more complex fully roofed nests had evolved from those without roofs. This study demonstrates that in fact it was the opposite, in that these simple nests evolved several times independently, and the bird families that made this switch to simple nests are some of the most species-rich bird families today, such as the Australian honeyeaters.” More Collapsed Darwinian Expectations | CEH

- Mechanism for photosynthesis already existed in primeval microbe https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170131124132.htm

- "India gradually drifted away from Africa and Madagascar towards the north and collided with the Eurasian plate. Scientists assumed for a long time that the subcontinent was largely isolated during its long journey through the ocean and unique species of plants and animals were therefore able to develop on it. However, paleontologists at the University of Bonn are now showing using tiny midges encased in amber that there must have been a connection between the apparently cut off India and Europe and Asia around 54 million years ago that enabled the creatures to move around. The surprising results are now presented in the journal PLOS ONE." https://phys.org/news/2017-01-india-isolated-thought.html

This is just a tiny sample of a whole mountain of problems. Does evolution have any predictive power at all?

When you are at a stage where you are being "forced to reconsider your whole picture" in pretty much all the relevant areas, I think it's time to admit that what you have is not a "fact". It's a research project. And repeating something like a mantra doesn't make it true. This is the very least a rational, honest evolutionist would do.

And if you want to base your acceptance of evolution on "evolution in action", you have an even bigger problem. The changes we observe have to do with rearrangement of already existing genetic information. We've never observed a change where new information is added. It's not just that the changes are too small (in fact, sometimes they're quite big), it's that they're not the right type of change. People should keep this in mind whenever they see the mainstream media bloviating about "evolution in action".

And here's something about natural selection + mutation: "We find that even in enormous populations, natural selection is often very inefficient at distinguishing between mutations that are beneficial and deleterious on average. In addition, substitution rates of all mutations are dramatically increased by variable selection pressures. This can lead to counterintuitive results. For instance, mutations that result in a trade-off but are predominantly deleterious during their lifetime can be much more likely to fix than mutations that are always neutral or even beneficial." Fate of a mutation in a fluctuating environment

Oh and by the way, since you're a geologist, you might be interested in this: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.13182/NT16-98
Yah sort of like when they found 2 billion year old bacteria that didnt evolve at all proved evolution. Everything proves evolution, even lack of evolution.

But thats because they ignore the world around them. See my post here.

I desperately need valid proof of creationism.

They simply incorrectly classify the fossil record, just as if they had never once seen dogs in real life, they would classify them all as separate species. That they have simply classified subspecies incorrectly as separate species is the only fossil support they have.

Which isnt saying much, since their own evolutionary paleontologists has used the science of bone growth to show they cant even get babies and adults of the same species correct.

Where are the baby dinosaurs?

To think that they then have the even harder task of getting subspecies correctly identified is beyond any hope whatsoever, being they start from a biased perspective.

Like you i once had that biased perspective for most of 30 years, but like you i began to question these facts that in the end upon close examination turned to be not so factual at all and actually supported my growing belief in creationism.
 
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SkyWriting

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Why can't creationists come up with good rebuttals to evolutionists' claims and rebuttals?
Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made ...

... Yes, the perpetual mountains were shattered, The ancient hills collapsed. ... The ancient
mountains disintegrate; the primeval hills are flattened. ...
//biblehub.com/habakkuk/3-6.htm - 18k


Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains ...

with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...
//biblehub.com/deuteronomy/33-15.htm - 17k


Genesis 49:26 Your father's blessings are greater than the ...

... May the blessings of your father surpass the blessings of the ancient mountains,
reaching to the heights of the eternal hills. May ...
//biblehub.com/genesis/49-26.htm - 19k


Psalm 76:4 You are radiant with light, more majestic than ...

... You shine brightly and reveal your majesty, as you descend from the hills where
you killed your prey. ... You are more majestic than the ancient mountains. ...
//biblehub.com/psalms/76-4.htm - 16k
 
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lismore

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Next, pray "Lord, if this is true show me. I want to know the truth."

Hi Vaccine! Good post. One encounter with God will change everything, your very perspective on everything. As the bible says, not with wise and persuasive words but with demonstration of the Spirit's power. And, you will seek me and you will find me if you seek me with all your heart. God Bless :)
 
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JacksBratt

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Never thought I'd see the day when so many people who call themselves Christians would replace God's word with Darwinian evolution. Amazing.

Makes me wonder how they justify the death and resurrection of Christ, or if they've also reduced Jesus to symbolism as well.
I have thought the same thing.

Many times I have said that if turning water to wine, healing the deaf, healing the crippled, healing the blind, healing from a distance, feeding more than 5000 people with five loaves and two fish, walking on water, putting an ear back on a soldier, were not true and the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ was not necessary for salvation... they would call it a parable or allegorical or metaphorical story too.

The only reason that they hold on to such miracles as the gospel account portray... is... if they didn't... they would not have salvation.
 
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ouranopolis

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There are many good books out there. The probability of life arising by chance is so I infinitesimally small that it should leave you in no doubt.
Also do not believe the common lie that all scientists reject creationism. My father is a physics professor in very high standing. He absolutely states that evolution is frankly a ridiculous theory. He is also an agnostic. He also states that if he were too public with his views then his career would certainly be in jeopardy. He names several of his friends all professors of the sciences who find evolution laughable.
Trust God's word, study and actually stop and think k if it is reasonable that humans could have arisen from a lump of rock floating in space without a divine creator, merely by chance! Even the idea is insane
 
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Andy centek

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Hello everyone,

I'm assuming that this is the correct subforum in which to post this topic, but if not, forgive me. Basically, I've grown up in a home that believes in 100% biblical inerrancy and that's what I've believed, but recently I've been having a lot of doubts about creationism in particular. There are a few articles and websites that I have read that seem to completely and almost convincingly refute the idea of creationism. I'll link them below.

Ken Ham's 10 facts that prove creationism - Debunked

Evidence against a recent creation - RationalWiki

An Index to Creationist Claims

Falsifiability of creationism - RationalWiki

How am I, as a Christian, supposed to keep my belief in biblical inerrancy when there are all of these rebuttals that seemingly debunk creationism? Why can't creationists come up with good rebuttals to evolutionists' claims and rebuttals? If the creation story and the fall of man aren't true then is there no original sin by Adam? If there wasn't then why did God even have to send Christ to die for us, or did He? Was there even divine intervention in the universe's creation or formation? Is my faith just weak? I don't mean to cause controversy, I just really need some answers. I'm so tired of doubting my whole life. If these can't be answered, I'm afraid I may start to slip away to agnosticism. So, if anyone has answers, please share them.

Thank you!
 
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Andy centek

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loveGodhatesin:

Blessings and incouragement. Struggles can lead to better things.
You might try reading my book that I posted called --The God __ circle. I think that will show You many things about creation; as to, what causes it.

Andy Centek
 
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DreadCthulhu

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There are many good books out there. The probability of life arising by chance is so I infinitesimally small that it should leave you in no doubt.
Also do not believe the common lie that all scientists reject creationism. My father is a physics professor in very high standing. He absolutely states that evolution is frankly a ridiculous theory. He is also an agnostic. He also states that if he were too public with his views then his career would certainly be in jeopardy. He names several of his friends all professors of the sciences who find evolution laughable.
Trust God's word, study and actually stop and think k if it is reasonable that humans could have arisen from a lump of rock floating in space without a divine creator, merely by chance! Even the idea is insane
Just because something seems improbable, doesn't mean that it cannot happen.
 
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JacksBratt

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Just because something seems improbable, doesn't mean that it cannot happen.
You are correct. That's what "improbable" means.

I would place an event of life coming out of nothing and starting spontaneously....."impossible"... not improbable.

Given the fact that scientists cannot even do it in a lab with controlled conditions.... it's not going to happen on it's own.

All life comes from God. Nobody else can create it, even Satan.... and it certainly is not going to happen spontaneously.
 
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Andy centek

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OURANOPOLTS:

Well your father can believe what he desires to, just as all can. However, the ones that understand about The Creator, called God in the English, believe in Him as The Creator of all that was, is, and will be.
If you desire some very good other information about all this, I suggest you read (on the inner-net) The Book Of Urnatia.

As for my humble opinion. All one has to do is look at all that is in nature and see the designs that they show a creator. Everything is in it's perfect environment. Everything has it's purpose.
The math behind all creation shows a Creator. As well as math itself.
You may want to look at by writing -- God Circle -- which I put on this site.

One has choice, your dad made his; at least at this point. I happen to think that science is correct in many things they claim; especially about creation. They however, have not put it all together yet. I hope this helps you.

Andy Centek
 
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ouranopolis

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OURANOPOLTS:

Well your father can believe what he desires to, just as all can. However, the ones that understand about The Creator, called God in the English, believe in Him as The Creator of all that was, is, and will be.
If you desire some very good other information about all this, I suggest you read (on the inner-net) The Book Of Urnatia.

As for my humble opinion. All one has to do is look at all that is in nature and see the designs that they show a creator. Everything is in it's perfect environment. Everything has it's purpose.
The math behind all creation shows a Creator. As well as math itself.
You may want to look at by writing -- God Circle -- which I put on this site.

One has choice, your dad made his; at least at this point. I happen to think that science is correct in many things they claim; especially about creation. They however, have not put it all together yet. I hope this helps you.

Andy Centek

I fully agree Andy. My point t wasn't that he is right just that he doesn't believe in evolution and yet is a top scientist, and not a Christian. Ie I mean he has no agenda, and yet still thinks evolution is nonsense as do I.

I pray one day he becomes a believer. If you read my post this point is quite clear.. I think k u may be confused
 
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112358

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Hello everyone,

I'm assuming that this is the correct subforum in which to post this topic, but if not, forgive me. Basically, I've grown up in a home that believes in 100% biblical inerrancy and that's what I've believed, but recently I've been having a lot of doubts about creationism in particular. There are a few articles and websites that I have read that seem to completely and almost convincingly refute the idea of creationism. I'll link them below.

Ken Ham's 10 facts that prove creationism - Debunked

Evidence against a recent creation - RationalWiki

An Index to Creationist Claims

Falsifiability of creationism - RationalWiki

How am I, as a Christian, supposed to keep my belief in biblical inerrancy when there are all of these rebuttals that seemingly debunk creationism? Why can't creationists come up with good rebuttals to evolutionists' claims and rebuttals? If the creation story and the fall of man aren't true then is there no original sin by Adam? If there wasn't then why did God even have to send Christ to die for us, or did He? Was there even divine intervention in the universe's creation or formation? Is my faith just weak? I don't mean to cause controversy, I just really need some answers. I'm so tired of doubting my whole life. If these can't be answered, I'm afraid I may start to slip away to agnosticism. So, if anyone has answers, please share them.

Thank you!
Logic demands the creation account. Something cannot rise from nothing under the laws of nature. If the universe exists (the effect) then there must be a cause. The only plausible cause for the effect of the universe is the supernatural creation of that universe. It really is that simple.
 
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Samaritan Woman

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LoveGodHateSin -
Thank you for your candor regarding your struggle which, by the way, is understandable given the age we live in. To give you a head's up, I am an Old-Earth Creationist (OEC) who most definitely believes in the inerrancy of the Bible. I looked at these websites you provided the links to and have some replies; I apologize for the length of my post in advance.

First, Young Earth Creationists (YEC) have their beliefs rooted in the teachings of a 17th century bishop named James Ussher; he arrived at the earth age of approximately 6,000 years by counting back from the fall of Jerusalem in 588 BC and then adding up the number of years people lived according the Biblical genealogies in Genesis chapters 5 and 11. YEC do not understand that ancient Hebrew differs greatly in its composition style of genealogies compared to modern-day styles – any scholar of biblical Hebrew will tell you that these lists provide only the highlights and are not necessarily a complete record of every generation; only the names deemed important were recorded. In fact, it is suggested that the Mosaic genealogies are perhaps only 20%-40% complete and possibly exclude descendants centuries removed. Keep in mind that biblical Hebrew has only about 8,700 unique words whereas English has around 200,000 (excluding technical and medical terms). Because of this limitation, when the OT states “son”, it can actually mean “grandson”, “great-grandson”, etc. or “descendant” , or “ancestor”. Also, the word “begat” doesn't always connect direct generations.

Second, you asked if divine intervention created the universe. While I am no scientist, I will provide some insight into the Genesis account to support an OEC belief. In Gen. 1:1 “beginning” in Hebrew (HBW) refers to an indefinite period of time and does not allow for an instantaneous creation; rather it suggests a period time of unstated length. “The heavens and the earth” in HBW means all the raw materials to make the sun, planets, stars, universe, and cosmos. “Day” in HBW has several different meanings such as a season, unspecified length of time, long period of tine, not just a simple 24 hour day.
Third, OEC embrace micro-evolution, just not macro-evolution. In other words, changes do occur effecting genes, and other minor changes do occur within a species; however, we do not believe that life originated from primitive one-celled organisms that ultimately evolved into the broad diversity of plants and animals now populating the earth. The fossil record reflects God's creation of life which is evidenced in the Cambrian Explosion 545 million years ago. Also, animal death was part of His creation long before Adam's creation and is unrelated to man's sin, salvation, or Christ's atoning work.

I could go on longer...One thing of note – I noticed some of Talk Origins claims they are refuting were sourced from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, aka Jehovah's Witnesses. This is an aberrant, cult-like authoritarian and controlling group whose NT translation has been debunked by secular and religious Greek scholars alike. The fact that TalkOrigins.org cites JW documents as sources should make you circumspect of TO discernment regarding biblical issues.

Hope this helps! Let me know if you need anything else.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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LoveGodHateSin -
Thank you for your candor regarding your struggle which, by the way, is understandable given the age we live in. To give you a head's up, I am an Old-Earth Creationist (OEC) who most definitely believes in the inerrancy of the Bible. I looked at these websites you provided the links to and have some replies; I apologize for the length of my post in advance.

First, Young Earth Creationists (YEC) have their beliefs rooted in the teachings of a 17th century bishop named James Ussher; he arrived at the earth age of approximately 6,000 years by counting back from the fall of Jerusalem in 588 BC and then adding up the number of years people lived according the Biblical genealogies in Genesis chapters 5 and 11. YEC do not understand that ancient Hebrew differs greatly in its composition style of genealogies compared to modern-day styles – any scholar of biblical Hebrew will tell you that these lists provide only the highlights and are not necessarily a complete record of every generation; only the names deemed important were recorded. In fact, it is suggested that the Mosaic genealogies are perhaps only 20%-40% complete and possibly exclude descendants centuries removed. Keep in mind that biblical Hebrew has only about 8,700 unique words whereas English has around 200,000 (excluding technical and medical terms). Because of this limitation, when the OT states “son”, it can actually mean “grandson”, “great-grandson”, etc. or “descendant” , or “ancestor”. Also, the word “begat” doesn't always connect direct generations.

Second, you asked if divine intervention created the universe. While I am no scientist, I will provide some insight into the Genesis account to support an OEC belief. In Gen. 1:1 “beginning” in Hebrew (HBW) refers to an indefinite period of time and does not allow for an instantaneous creation; rather it suggests a period time of unstated length. “The heavens and the earth” in HBW means all the raw materials to make the sun, planets, stars, universe, and cosmos. “Day” in HBW has several different meanings such as a season, unspecified length of time, long period of tine, not just a simple 24 hour day.
Third, OEC embrace micro-evolution, just not macro-evolution. In other words, changes do occur effecting genes, and other minor changes do occur within a species; however, we do not believe that life originated from primitive one-celled organisms that ultimately evolved into the broad diversity of plants and animals now populating the earth. The fossil record reflects God's creation of life which is evidenced in the Cambrian Explosion 545 million years ago. Also, animal death was part of His creation long before Adam's creation and is unrelated to man's sin, salvation, or Christ's atoning work.

I could go on longer...One thing of note – I noticed some of Talk Origins claims they are refuting were sourced from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, aka Jehovah's Witnesses. This is an aberrant, cult-like authoritarian and controlling group whose NT translation has been debunked by secular and religious Greek scholars alike. The fact that TalkOrigins.org cites JW documents as sources should make you circumspect of TO discernment regarding biblical issues.

Hope this helps! Let me know if you need anything else.

Also let's note that God is described to have worked creation like an artist works a painting. No artists daubs his brush onto the canvas and proclaims it is done. Instead he labors for a period, then steps back and contemplates his work, before once again returning to the canvas to begin painting some more.

Also "hayah" is the most conclussive evidence of an old earth.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1961.htm

"hayah: to fall out, come to pass, become, be"

And the earth "became - hayah" desolate and waste; and darkness "became" upon the surface of the deep.....

Hence the dinosuars died out in this catastrophe that made the earth desolate and waste. The rest of creation is only concerned with the creation of man.... the entire point in the Bible, not the creation of the earth itself. The earth was in a state of disorder and ruin after the catastrophe....

The same word is used when naming Eve. Eve at this time "was" not the mother of all living, but "became" the mother of all living....

it is a trans-formative verb showing a change from one state to the next, not a pre-existing state.... It is the falling out of one state of being into another. It came to pass that the earth was desolate and waste, not that it was created desolate and waste..... Isiah makes this clear when it declares God did not create the earth to be void......

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; he is God; that formed the earth and made it; he established it, he created it not a waste, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."
 
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Andy centek

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Creation -- Of the heaven and earth. It does not say of the heaven and Earth. Earth is a proper noun that says the planet Earth, earth is a general term that can mean, a land, an area on the earth, or a area provided on the Earth, in the earth.
Think on that !
Andy Centek
 
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tdidymas

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Creation -- Of the heaven and earth. It does not say of the heaven and Earth. Earth is a proper noun that says the planet Earth, earth is a general term that can mean, a land, an area on the earth, or a area provided on the Earth, in the earth.
Think on that !
Andy Centek
In other words, the sky and the ground. I get it.
TD:)
 
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Andy centek

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In other words, the sky and the ground. I get it.
TD:)
Blessings:

Yes, the sky and the ground, but, not just any ground. Consider closely what land Jesus Christ came into and why. Consider who Jehovah Elohim gave His Law to and why. Then start puting this together.
I am currently writing a book on Genesis that will cover all these things in an understandable way. I have been at it some 5 months so far. Then come the editing!
Andy Centek
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Blessings:

Yes, the sky and the ground, but, not just any ground. Consider closely what land Jesus Christ came into and why. Consider who Jehovah Elohim gave His Law to and why. Then start puting this together.
I am currently writing a book on Genesis that will cover all these things in an understandable way. I have been at it some 5 months so far. Then come the editing!
Andy Centek
Why would you think the ground created in Genesis is the same ground in latter days? During the time the flood receded mountains rose and valleys fell, transforming the entire surface of the earth.

Psalms 104:8-9

That’s why we find extinct sea life and corals on mountain tops. They were once sea, but rose to become mountains after the flood. Which means that what was once land is now sea floor. The geography of our entire planet was reshaped.
 
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