I Challenge all Believers to...

[PsychoSarah]

But doesn't the bible state that all people have original sin, thus aren't pure in any way? If we went by your requirements, no human should pray.

 

[grasping the after wind]

But doesn't the bible state that all people have original sin, thus aren't pure in any way? If we went by your requirements, no human should pray.

They're not my requirements so I don't feel required to follow them or to enforce them. I think by " a pure heart" they might actually mean being sincere and not being sinless as you are correct to point out we all are born sinners. I don't necessarily subscribe to the requirements given as the only way to pray either. It was the definition of prayer in the first paragraph that I was interested in. The second paragraph was there when I copied it and I left it there. I also have to remedy the fact that I neglected to reference the source.
Prayer | What is Prayer? | Define Prayer | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[grasping the after wind]

Well if (according to you) god wants his people to stop asking things of him...then my challenge should be one every christian accepts!

Just out of curiosity, did you happen to read the post a page or two ago where another christian claimed that god does indeed want you (christians) to ask him for things? It seems there's more than one christian position on this issue

Christians are a diverse bunch with diverse opinions.

 

[peaceandquiet]

You are probably falling victim to a common human bias; noticing when you get what you pray for and forgetting the stuff you don't get.

That is very presumptuous of you.

 

[PsychoSarah]

That is very presumptuous of you.

It is extremely common for people to make that mistake.

 

[peaceandquiet]

It is extremely common for people to make that mistake.

You are entitled to your opinion. And I am of the opinion that no one can rightfully call a person's interpretation of God's answer to their prayer a "mistake".

Speaking for myself, I'm trying to learn to be grateful when my prayers are answered in the way I was hoping, and understanding that God knows what is best for me in this life and the next, when the answer is not what I was hoping for.

Anyway, back to the original topic, and I apologize if this has already been addressed, but what is your theory or expectation of what might happen if someone were to stop praying for a year?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Let me clarify: God does not like vanity.

Vain prayers.

Vain oblations.

Vain swears.

Vain requests.

He is a Parent, so of course He expects and delights in our requests prayers, but praying for a Lambourgini every day is not His spiel. Sure, pray for "stuff," but that is not the point of prayer. He said He will give everything to us if we follow Him first, so prayer for "stuff" is quite inept if your intention is to receive something only.

My parents told me as a kid to ask them for whatever I want; they can either say "yes," or "no." God, likewise. My parents also told me in my college years they would like to hear from me without me calling asking for money. God, likewise. Pray to God for things! But, as He said, don't pray for things that will feed your lusts and selfishness. Also, pray to Him to talk to Him, don't just call Him when you need "money." In my opinion, God wants us to want Him to be part of our lives, instead of seeing Him as a "sky Daddy that zaps sinners, and grants wishes." His name is not Ouranus.

Cool story.

So would you accept the challenge?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I was not a faithful Christian. I did not have a habit to "ask for" things from God until a few years ago. I thought it is not a useful way of praying. More likely, I was reasoning with God. Just like what Job did in the Book of Job.

I changed my attitude dramatically now. Because I finally asked for something, and I got it and am continuously getting it. It is simply amazing.

Well you know what? You're the perfect person to take up this challenge!

Since you personally think your prayers are being answered, it's a unique opportunity to find out if that's true or not. It's really not that hard...just stop praying for stuff for a year or so, and find out if there is a noticeable effect. Think to yourself, "would I be praying for "x" to happen?" and if you would be praying for it...take notice of whether or not it happens without prayer or it doesn't.

 

[Albion]

But doesn't the bible state that all people have original sin, thus aren't pure in any way? If we went by your requirements, no human should pray.

What you mean to say it that all people once HAD original sin. Most Christian have done something about it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You have moved the goal posts and asked a completely different thing , i.e. not to stop praying but rather to refrain from asking God for things. Asking for things is not the point of prayer. Communicating with God is the point of prayer. Some of that communication could be asking for things but what kind of a relationship do you have with the ones you love? Are all your communications with them centered around you asking them to do things for you? If not , then why do you seem to assume that Christians communicate with someone we love in a completely different way than you communicate with those you love?

Actually, I haven't moved the goalposts at all. I haven't even misused the word "prayer". The definition of prayer I used was in fact the first definition of prayer on most dictionaries I looked up. For example....

prayer - definition of prayer by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

From that page...

1.a. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.

And it's really quite amusing to watch the believers here act like they've never heard this definition for prayer or it's somehow wrong to them. You've seen it a hundred times....right here on CF. I could probably just pull examples of people (christians) using the word "prayer" exactly as I used it and I'd never run out of examples. They would have to split this thread before I ran out of examples of christians using the words prayer exactly as I have.

Now, of course there are other definitions of the word "prayer"...I get that, thank you for pointing it out. Can we be honest here for a moment though? The problem isn't that I used prayer in a way that you didn't understand...you understood it exactly the way I meant it. It isn't that not making requests of god is a bad thing to do and it's somehow "against"christianity...I see christians telling other christians they shouldn't treat god like he's just there to grant wishes all the time. The problem, is that this is an entirely reasonable challenge...you could easily do it, even if you went to church the whole time. You could easily spend a year not asking god for a single thing. My guess is that you're scared to do it because you might find out that you notice exactly no difference in your life whatsoever.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Then you haven't read my post >

http://www.christianforums.com/t7823069-2/#post65633160

In prayer I request that God corrects me to get real with Him in how He has me loving, that He changes me to become more like Jesus, that He changes my character so I discover how it is to be really honest with Him. I would not stop making this request; because I obviously still need this, much more!!!! lolololololololol

But about making requests for things like food and clothes . . . I don't ask for these things, but I trust God to provide for me, however He pleases, and that I will be obedient and good about whatever He wants me to have > "be content with such things as you have" (in Hebrews 13:5).

And I pray with my lady friend about if and how long we will keep her truck which we use for doing things we very appreciate being able to do. So, our prayer for our truck is really a request that we can keep doing the loving things we value doing.

So, it would not be natural for us to stop making requests for material things, because our loving people is connected with having things for loving others and having the health and means of transportation to reach certain people, and to share with each other at different locations.

And, "of course", with our requesting we also are thanking for all He has already done and is doing and will do.

And Philippians 4:6-7 includes "make your requests known to God". So, we need to not stop obeying this. If we stop making requests to God, we are disobeying Him and His word.

And so, who would want us to do an experiment of not doing something God wants, for a full year? Who is the one who "dares" us to try something that God does not want?

Our requesting is included in our relating with our Father and Jesus.

In case you mean something else, then we aren't doing what you mean, anyway So, how can we stop what we're not doing?

And maybe to answer your question, even so - - - each day, a number of us find out . . . the hard way . . . what becomes of us if we do not pray all through the day. When we get away from being prayerful, we get in messes in our emotions and feelings and strayed thinking which brings stinking and trouble and confusion and frustration and hurts and unforgiveness . . . because we got away from being prayerful "in love". We need God, every moment; prayer is keeping in touch

And church is a time when I am sharing with my brothers and sisters in Jesus. It is not only a practice with copy-catting. My people help me get correction and their example so I can find out more how to love. I would not want to be away from these people and the way I can become by myself. I spend time by myself, each day, and it can be messy.

But I think, in my church, we need to be more into praying with each other; this I am concerned about. The prayer that we do do together is not really requesting, but trusting, and claiming how we need correction and more growth in love, asking for how we relate more and more intimately with God and each other and show His love to any and all people; this is what we pray and hear in our preaching; I definitely need to be there to be confronted with this, reminded of this, and encouraged to keep after this, and to be sharing with others who are into this, too. So, going a year without this . . . no way!!

Though they are not perfect about having prayer together, but they are so good for me, as my example of being real with God and relating with people caringly with unconditional love. So, I desperately need to spend time with them. But during the week they have families and lives and jobs to take care of; so Sunday is my practical time to be with them.

God is our Father > His name shows He is about family. So, He does want us to spend time with each other, as family. Sunday church is an opportunity for us to be family with each other. Our requesting things in prayer, then, is something we can share in doing, as family. We care about each other, in prayer, not only about ourselves. So, the caring of our requesting is important; it would not be good to stop caring in prayer, for a year.

You said this...

"In prayer I request that God corrects me to get..."

So you used the word "prayer" exactly how I did....as a request.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Perhaps you simply misunderstand what Christian Prayer is ? Here is a definition of Christian Prayer from a Christian organization which might explain it better than a general definition of prayer as seen by the writers of a secular dictionary.



Prayer


A privilege and an obligation of the Christian where we communicate with God. It is how we convey our confession (1 John 1:9), requests (1 Tim. 2:1-3), intercessions (James 5:15), thanksgiving (Phil. 4:6), etc., to our holy God. We are commanded to pray (1 Thess. 5:17).

Some personal requirements of prayer are a pure heart (Psalm 66:18), belief in Christ (John 14:12-14), and that the prayer be according to God's will (1 John 5:14). We can pray standing (Neh. 9:5), kneeling (Ezra 9:5), sitting (1 Chron. 17:16-27), bowing (Exodus 34:8), and with lifted hands (1 Tim. 2:8).

No offense, but all that matters is how I used it in the OP. Now that it's clear, you can accept the challenge or not.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You are entitled to your opinion. And I am of the opinion that no one can rightfully call a person's interpretation of God's answer to their prayer a "mistake".

Speaking for myself, I'm trying to learn to be grateful when my prayers are answered in the way I was hoping, and understanding that God knows what is best for me in this life and the next, when the answer is not what I was hoping for.

Anyway, back to the original topic, and I apologize if this has already been addressed, but what is your theory or expectation of what might happen if someone were to stop praying for a year?

No apologies needed. I think it was addressed, but addressed indirectly. It's rather simple really...

If you think that your prayers have a noticeable difference on your life, that is, if you think you can tell when god fulfills your requests...then when you stop praying you should notice that the "difference" your prayers had on your life is gone. Let me give you some practical examples...

Let's say you're a person who prays...you pray for all sorts of things. Let's say for example, that your mom is sick, your brother is looking for a job, and you have a very important physics exam you need to pass....

You pray to god to heal your mother, to help your brother find a job, and to help you pass the exam (idk if these are things you might actually pray for, I'm just using them as examples). The very next week, your mother gets better, your brother doesn't find a job, and your exam is postponed another week giving you more time to study. You might think that god has healed your mother, he's not helped your brother find a job, and he's given you more time to study...so maybe he helped you with the exam in a way you didn't expect. In other words, you've noticed the "differences" your prayers have made.

Let's now say that this is the year you aren't praying in order to find out what effect it has. You run into the exact same situation, your mother is sick again...your brother is looking for a new job...and you have another big test to pass. You might think, "well since I'm not praying god isn't going to affect these things...because I haven't asked him to." but what I'd like you to do during that year of not praying is to think about what you would be praying for. You'd be praying for all of the same things, right? Then, once you've decided what you would've been praying for...see if the results are any different now that you aren't praying from what you would expect if you had prayed.

 

[peaceandquiet]

No apologies needed. I think it was addressed, but addressed indirectly. It's rather simple really...

If you think that your prayers have a noticeable difference on your life, that is, if you think you can tell when god fulfills your requests...then when you stop praying you should notice that the "difference" your prayers had on your life is gone. Let me give you some practical examples...

Let's say you're a person who prays...you pray for all sorts of things. Let's say for example, that your mom is sick, your brother is looking for a job, and you have a very important physics exam you need to pass....

You pray to god to heal your mother, to help your brother find a job, and to help you pass the exam (idk if these are things you might actually pray for, I'm just using them as examples). The very next week, your mother gets better, your brother doesn't find a job, and your exam is postponed another week giving you more time to study. You might think that god has healed your mother, he's not helped your brother find a job, and he's given you more time to study...so maybe he helped you with the exam in a way you didn't expect. In other words, you've noticed the "differences" your prayers have made.

Let's now say that this is the year you aren't praying in order to find out what effect it has. You run into the exact same situation, your mother is sick again...your brother is looking for a new job...and you have another big test to pass. You might think, "well since I'm not praying god isn't going to affect these things...because I haven't asked him to." but what I'd like you to do during that year of not praying is to think about what you would be praying for. You'd be praying for all of the same things, right? Then, once you've decided what you would've been praying for...see if the results are any different now that you aren't praying from what you would expect if you had prayed.

Hmm. I don't know if this experiment would work at all. God knows the desires of my heart anyway!

 

[Lollerskates]

.

 

[juvenissun]

Well you know what? You're the perfect person to take up this challenge!

Since you personally think your prayers are being answered, it's a unique opportunity to find out if that's true or not. It's really not that hard...just stop praying for stuff for a year or so, and find out if there is a noticeable effect. Think to yourself, "would I be praying for "x" to happen?" and if you would be praying for it...take notice of whether or not it happens without prayer or it doesn't.

If you asked toys from your dad and every time you asked, you got something.
Would you willing to stop it for a week just to check if your dad was really giving you things?

This suggestion can only come from one who does not have that experience. You are testing. And I have passed that stage. I do not need to test it any more.

 

[grasping the after wind]

No offense, but all that matters is how I used it in the OP. Now that it's clear, you can accept the challenge or not.

Doesn't appeal to me. If someone I know is in need of comfort I simply cannot sit by and not ask for help. It would be fairly easy to refrain from asking God for things i.e. stuff, like money ,power, material possessions as I almost never request those things as it is apart from "daily bread" and never having lacked daily bread to refrain from asking for it is not exactly a sacrifice on my part but I cannot see myself staying quiet and ignoring the real needs of myself and others for a year. I do not see that I am capable of that level of commitment to something I would consider completely frivolous and when I see nothing in doing so that is in any way of use to anyone. Seems as useless a process as asking a committed atheist to attend worship services. What would be the point?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I already did "your challenge" multiple times. That is why I am who I now, and why I pray to talk instead of begging for trinkets.

It isn't fun, and I wouldn't recommend any believer do your challenge because it is vain. It does not glorify God in any way (quite the contrary.) That goes for anyone's faith.

I don't see anything vain in searching for truth. I don't see why your god would be upset with that either.

So you've already done my challenge? That's interesting. How did it turn out? Did you notice a difference when you stopped praying?

 

[Ana the Ist]

If you asked toys from your dad and every time you asked, you got something.
Would you willing to stop it for a week just to check if your dad was really giving you things?

This suggestion can only come from one who does not have that experience. You are testing. And I have passed that stage. I do not need to test it any more.

That's a poor analogy. In your analogy there's proof. There's the thing my father bought me, and I'm assuming I witnessed him giving it to me.

Whether or not something happening is the "answer" to a prayer is debatable...even amongst christians. Even if all agreed it was an "answer" you would still have no way of knowing who did the answering.

I'm not sure what you mean by "you are testing". If you mean I'm doubtful about prayer, I'm not. Like most atheists (I would guess) I stopped praying long ago. It had no noticeable impact on my life at all....which was really no different from when I was praying, I noticed no answered prayers at all. That's not really important though...

You said, "I don't need to test it anymore" which I took as meaning that like Lollerskates you've done the challenge before as well (it's amazing this sudden change in the christians who responded to this thread, so many who insisted this challenge wasn't possible to do now insist they've done it, it's incredible what a little clarity changes lol) so I'll ask you the same questions.

What was the result? Did you notice a difference when you stopped praying/asking god for things? Please let me know because I really am curious how it turned out.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Doesn't appeal to me. If someone I know is in need of comfort I simply cannot sit by and not ask for help. It would be fairly easy to refrain from asking God for things i.e. stuff, like money ,power, material possessions as I almost never request those things as it is apart from "daily bread" and never having lacked daily bread to refrain from asking for it is not exactly a sacrifice on my part but I cannot see myself staying quiet and ignoring the real needs of myself and others for a year. I do not see that I am capable of that level of commitment to something I would consider completely frivolous and when I see nothing in doing so that is in any way of use to anyone. Seems as useless a process as asking a committed atheist to attend worship services. What would be the point?

Well, to be honest, you really don't have to ignore yours or anyone else's needs for a year. Honestly, it's not as if when you need something you pray for it then you're done...is it? I'm sure other's would appreciate you actually helping them in their needs as well...not just praying.

What's the point? To see if you know. I'm sure you believe, I don't doubt you think you know...but these aren't the same as having proof.