I Challenge all Believers to...

[Ana the Ist]

The "problem" is, I think, that it wouldn't test if something is true so much as it would test how well you could do without something that churchgoers consider close to essential. They do not see "church" as just an emblem, like hanging a crucifix on one's wall or wearing green on St. Patrick's Day. An atheist who attends church against his preference is just annoyed by it. While it might possible change something in the way he thinks, he's not compromising his belief system by being there...but the churchgoer who cannot attend worship services is.

Asking god for things is essential?

 

[Ana the Ist]

The "problem" is, I think, that it wouldn't test if something is true so much as it would test how well you could do without something that churchgoers consider close to essential. They do not see "church" as just an emblem, like hanging a crucifix on one's wall or wearing green on St. Patrick's Day. An atheist who attends church against his preference is just annoyed by it. While it might possible change something in the way he thinks, he's not compromising his belief system by being there...but the churchgoer who cannot attend worship services is.

This would be a terribly detrimental thing for a believer to do. We call church involvement, prayer, bible reading, etc "means of grace". God's presence with us is easy to forget or close our "spiritual eyes" to because it's not physically sensible. The church, prayer, scripture, and sacrament are the ways that believers get a sense of God's actual presence. They maintain and sustain faith. If we were to dispense of them then our faith would shrivel up and die.

Again, I didn't realize that casual conversation with god was considered prayer as well. I meant it in the common usage of the word meaning-to petition/ask something from god. I don't see any need to end your talks with god about the weather (unless you're asking him to change it lol). Certainly asking god for stuff isn't required to have faith, is it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

It is exactly what you have proposed.

I don't think it is. You can have a relationship with god without asking things of him, can't you?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, I stopped the format of praying.
I did not really care about that.

Your point is not valid. If a Christian turned into a non-Christian due to the lack of religious formalities, then the person is probable never a Christian. Human's recognition does not change so easily. There are many people who were not Christians for tens of years and become Christian suddenly or gradually.

A true Christian never go backward regardless the living environment. I could live in Lhaza many years. But I will go right back to a church when I left there.

This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you remain christian. I don't know what you mean by "I stopped the format of praying." can you explain?

Just out of curiosity, why did you stop going to church/praying? Did it have a noticeable effect on your life?

 

[brightlights]

Again, I didn't realize that casual conversation with god was considered prayer as well. I meant it in the common usage of the word meaning-to petition/ask something from god. I don't see any need to end your talks with god about the weather (unless you're asking him to change it lol). Certainly asking god for stuff isn't required to have faith, is it?

In the Lord's Prayer Jesus tells us that we should ask for our daily bread. Why ask for daily bread? Surely this is something we can get on our own, right? Plenty of people don't pray and they still get daily bread. So why ask for it? Asking for anything, even something as simple as bread, is part of faith because it's recognizing that everything we receive ultimately comes from God. So what do we gain by asking him? We don't gain the thing itself because that apparently will come to us anyway. We gain an awareness of his love and a thankfulness for his gift. When asking for food, the reception of food becomes more than food, it becomes a sign of God's love. We have this food because God loves us enough to provide it. So yes, asking is part of faith.

 

[Ana the Ist]

In the Lord's Prayer Jesus tells us that we should ask for our daily bread. Why ask for daily bread? Surely this is something we can get on our own, right? Plenty of people don't pray and they still get daily bread. So why ask for it? Asking for anything, even something as simple as bread, is part of faith because it's recognizing that everything we receive ultimately comes from God. So what do we gain by asking him? We don't gain the thing itself because that apparently will come to us anyway. We gain an awareness of his love and a thankfulness for his gift. When asking for food, the reception of food becomes more than food, it becomes a sign of God's love. We have this food because God loves us enough to provide it. So yes, asking is part of faith.

First of all, let's not confuse "thanking" with "asking". They aren't the same and one can certainly do one without doing the other. Secondly, I'm really surprised I haven't heard this before. You're required to ask things of god to be christian? This doesn't seem right...

Surely it's not a sin to not ask things of god...what I mean is that in any legalistic sense, not asking isn't breaking any rule is it? Furthermore, isn't there some passage about god helping those who help themselves? Perhaps I'm thinking of something else, but I'd swear I remember that in the bible somewhere.

So my point is, if it's not required of you as a christian, why wouldn't you be able to stop doing it for just awhile?

 

[juvenissun]

This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you remain christian. I don't know what you mean by "I stopped the format of praying." can you explain?

Just out of curiosity, why did you stop going to church/praying? Did it have a noticeable effect on your life?

I lived in a small village at that time, and I did not like the only church in the village. So I stopped going. Yes, I did not like it. So I moved at the end.

Pray is a way of communication. I don't have to bow or to knee and close my eyes to do that. So, if I am thinking of things related to God, I am praying. How do you expect me to stop such a communication? Impractical.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

That's not really the same.

How would you know?

You are an atheist.

And I say that with all respect.

Nor would I do what you have invited me to do.

For one, it would not be God's will. Which in itself is sufficient for me to refrain.

 

[Albion]

Asking god for things is essential?

I was referring to attending church services, Ana. That was the proposal you made in the OP, remember? Well, that means more than simply a place where people pray.

To avoid it for a year is to cut out a major part of the believer's life; for the atheist to be forced to attend, on the other hand, doesn't do anything to upset his philosophical orientation. It would just be an annoyance or superfluous, and presumably of no consequence to him or her. IOW, the two ideas are not parallel.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

When the OP was posted, I was automatically reminded of this video here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX_CFt1P1CI

 

[Lollerskates]

.

 

[Ana the Ist]

How would you know?

This is an easy question to answer, so I'll start here. How would I know? Because what he said and what I'm asking are two different things. Here's what he said...

"Would you agree to ignore and cut off all communication with someone you have an extremely close and loving relationship with for a year just as an experiment for the amusement of a stranger on the internet? I guess, No I would not."

Did I say ignore and cut off all communication? Absolutely not. I said stop praying. I meant "praying" in the common meaning of the term (you know, the meaning that's used 99% of the time here on CF) which is "to request/ask/petition for something of god". It seems that suddenly all of the believer respondents have decided I meant something else entirely...so I'm clearing that up now.

I'm not asking you to stop communicating with god. You can talk about whatever you like with him. I'm asking you to stop making requests of god. The only reason I brought up not going to church is because I thought it would be much much easier to not ask things of god if you didn't go. If however, you can attend church without requesting things of god, by all means...attend.


Do you see the difference now? He read the challenge in the OP, then he refused to try and do something else entirely....something that had nothing to do with the challenge at all. I hope this clears things up...with all respect.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I lived in a small village at that time, and I did not like the only church in the village. So I stopped going. Yes, I did not like it. So I moved at the end.

Pray is a way of communication. I don't have to bow or to knee and close my eyes to do that. So, if I am thinking of things related to God, I am praying. How do you expect me to stop such a communication? Impractical.

I realize that not everyone reads the responses to other people's posts...some people only read the responses to their post. I'm guessing you're the latter because I've already answered/clarified this for you. Since I'm a nice guy though, I'll clarify it again just for you...

Did I say ignore and cut off all communication? Absolutely not. I said stop praying. I meant "praying" in the common meaning of the term (you know, the meaning that's used 99% of the time here on CF) which is "to request/ask/petition for something of god". Now, since I created this thread, I've learned that "praying" can also mean simple communications where no requests are made at all. I'm not asking you to stop those communications though....just the ones where you request something of god.

You'll have to forgive my mistake and I hope you can see how easy it was to make. I've only ever seen anyone on CF (christians and non-christians alike) use the word "prayer" to mean..."a request made to god". Whenever I've seen a believer talk about holding a casual conversation with god (I had a middle aged christian woman tell me that god helps her pick out clothes at the store) they simply say it as "I spoke to god..." or "I was discussing this with god....". They never refer to such conversations as "prayers".

I hope that clears things up.

 

[Ana the Ist]

God wants His people to stop asking to favors under the guise of prayer. The cliche example is a parent that longs for their child to tell them about their day, instead of asking for money for college.

God wants us to talk to Him, not prayers when we are in trouble. Prayer is more than, "zOMG I need help because of circumstances." Imagine the disconnect of people that only call on God when they are in trouble!

Your OP is much more complex than you may realize.

Well if (according to you) god wants his people to stop asking things of him...then my challenge should be one every christian accepts!

Just out of curiosity, did you happen to read the post a page or two ago where another christian claimed that god does indeed want you (christians) to ask him for things? It seems there's more than one christian position on this issue

 

[Lollerskates]

.

 

[juvenissun]

I realize that not everyone reads the responses to other people's posts...some people only read the responses to their post. I'm guessing you're the latter because I've already answered/clarified this for you. Since I'm a nice guy though, I'll clarify it again just for you...

Did I say ignore and cut off all communication? Absolutely not. I said stop praying. I meant "praying" in the common meaning of the term (you know, the meaning that's used 99% of the time here on CF) which is "to request/ask/petition for something of god". Now, since I created this thread, I've learned that "praying" can also mean simple communications where no requests are made at all. I'm not asking you to stop those communications though....just the ones where you request something of god.

You'll have to forgive my mistake and I hope you can see how easy it was to make. I've only ever seen anyone on CF (christians and non-christians alike) use the word "prayer" to mean..."a request made to god". Whenever I've seen a believer talk about holding a casual conversation with god (I had a middle aged christian woman tell me that god helps her pick out clothes at the store) they simply say it as "I spoke to god..." or "I was discussing this with god....". They never refer to such conversations as "prayers".

I hope that clears things up.

I was not a faithful Christian. I did not have a habit to "ask for" things from God until a few years ago. I thought it is not a useful way of praying. More likely, I was reasoning with God. Just like what Job did in the Book of Job.

I changed my attitude dramatically now. Because I finally asked for something, and I got it and am continuously getting it. It is simply amazing.

 

[com7fy8]

I've only ever seen anyone on CF (christians and non-christians alike) use the word "prayer" to mean..."a request made to god".

Then you haven't read my post >

http://www.christianforums.com/t7823069-2/#post65633160

In prayer I request that God corrects me to get real with Him in how He has me loving, that He changes me to become more like Jesus, that He changes my character so I discover how it is to be really honest with Him. I would not stop making this request; because I obviously still need this, much more!!!! lolololololololol

But about making requests for things like food and clothes . . . I don't ask for these things, but I trust God to provide for me, however He pleases, and that I will be obedient and good about whatever He wants me to have > "be content with such things as you have" (in Hebrews 13:5).

And I pray with my lady friend about if and how long we will keep her truck which we use for doing things we very appreciate being able to do. So, our prayer for our truck is really a request that we can keep doing the loving things we value doing.

So, it would not be natural for us to stop making requests for material things, because our loving people is connected with having things for loving others and having the health and means of transportation to reach certain people, and to share with each other at different locations.

And, "of course", with our requesting we also are thanking for all He has already done and is doing and will do.

And Philippians 4:6-7 includes "make your requests known to God". So, we need to not stop obeying this. If we stop making requests to God, we are disobeying Him and His word.

And so, who would want us to do an experiment of not doing something God wants, for a full year? Who is the one who "dares" us to try something that God does not want?

Our requesting is included in our relating with our Father and Jesus.

In case you mean something else, then we aren't doing what you mean, anyway So, how can we stop what we're not doing?

And maybe to answer your question, even so - - - each day, a number of us find out . . . the hard way . . . what becomes of us if we do not pray all through the day. When we get away from being prayerful, we get in messes in our emotions and feelings and strayed thinking which brings stinking and trouble and confusion and frustration and hurts and unforgiveness . . . because we got away from being prayerful "in love". We need God, every moment; prayer is keeping in touch

And church is a time when I am sharing with my brothers and sisters in Jesus. It is not only a practice with copy-catting. My people help me get correction and their example so I can find out more how to love. I would not want to be away from these people and the way I can become by myself. I spend time by myself, each day, and it can be messy.

But I think, in my church, we need to be more into praying with each other; this I am concerned about. The prayer that we do do together is not really requesting, but trusting, and claiming how we need correction and more growth in love, asking for how we relate more and more intimately with God and each other and show His love to any and all people; this is what we pray and hear in our preaching; I definitely need to be there to be confronted with this, reminded of this, and encouraged to keep after this, and to be sharing with others who are into this, too. So, going a year without this . . . no way!!

Though they are not perfect about having prayer together, but they are so good for me, as my example of being real with God and relating with people caringly with unconditional love. So, I desperately need to spend time with them. But during the week they have families and lives and jobs to take care of; so Sunday is my practical time to be with them.

God is our Father > His name shows He is about family. So, He does want us to spend time with each other, as family. Sunday church is an opportunity for us to be family with each other. Our requesting things in prayer, then, is something we can share in doing, as family. We care about each other, in prayer, not only about ourselves. So, the caring of our requesting is important; it would not be good to stop caring in prayer, for a year.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I was not a faithful Christian. I did not have a habit to "ask for" things from God until a few years ago. I thought it is not a useful way of praying. More likely, I was reasoning with God. Just like what Job did in the Book of Job.

I changed my attitude dramatically now. Because I finally asked for something, and I got it and am continuously getting it. It is simply amazing.

You are probably falling victim to a common human bias; noticing when you get what you pray for and forgetting the stuff you don't get.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I don't think it is. You can have a relationship with god without asking things of him, can't you?

You have moved the goal posts and asked a completely different thing , i.e. not to stop praying but rather to refrain from asking God for things. Asking for things is not the point of prayer. Communicating with God is the point of prayer. Some of that communication could be asking for things but what kind of a relationship do you have with the ones you love? Are all your communications with them centered around you asking them to do things for you? If not , then why do you seem to assume that Christians communicate with someone we love in a completely different way than you communicate with those you love?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Perhaps you simply misunderstand what Christian Prayer is ? Here is a definition of Christian Prayer from a Christian organization which might explain it better than a general definition of prayer as seen by the writers of a secular dictionary.



Prayer


A privilege and an obligation of the Christian where we communicate with God. It is how we convey our confession (1 John 1:9), requests (1 Tim. 2:1-3), intercessions (James 5:15), thanksgiving (Phil. 4:6), etc., to our holy God. We are commanded to pray (1 Thess. 5:17).

Some personal requirements of prayer are a pure heart (Psalm 66:18), belief in Christ (John 14:12-14), and that the prayer be according to God's will (1 John 5:14). We can pray standing (Neh. 9:5), kneeling (Ezra 9:5), sitting (1 Chron. 17:16-27), bowing (Exodus 34:8), and with lifted hands (1 Tim. 2:8).