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I am trying to be a Pastor of a Baptist church, and have a problem with a doctrine

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KelleHein

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Dear Acorn 777,
There is no greater doctrine in all the Bible. If John 3:16 is true and I believe it is then when did everlasting life become not everlasting? Because CHRIST JESUS is Life and you cannot be born again outside of HIS life. Then, when did HE become death or not life? We were born dead spiritually and HE came to give life and we cannot lose this because CHRIST JESUS has always been Life. I would love to speak with you personally. We are missionaries on the Border of Mexico Thank you!

Faith in CHRIST JESUS,

Kelle Hein
Internet Missionary
 
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DeaconDean

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Well, I too was in an SBC (about 25 years ago) and they were, oh, so into their OSAS doctrine. They just loved it. It was mentioned probably every other service (or so it seemed). And when they discussed scripture, oh, they just loved their "eternal security" passages. The pastor would spend lots of time discussing the virtues of these passages. But then there were those "other" passages: the one which they avoided like the plague; the ones they rushed through as if to avoid an embarrassing entanglement, or contrived elaborate explanations for. At least you, acorn_777, seem to recognize that there are these two seemingly opposing sets of passages. Your quest now, if you accept it, is to reconcile these two apparently contradictory sets of passages. As someone suggested, read Stanley’s book, and then take my advice and read Shank’s. Stanley does little more than make emotional appeals. Shank, on the other hand, makes an honest effort to handle both sets in a scholarly and biblical fashion, which is far, far, more than Stanley ever dreamt of doing.

You sir, seem awfully down on the SBC.

And if you openly reject this doctrine, they will for sure openly reject you as a pastor.

And here:

I would say that such "support" would not be accurate. Perhaps you need to also ask of those who believe otherwise.

I, however, stick to what Baptists have believed for over two centuries in the United States:

  1. Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by the Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit to immortality)1 and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon: notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded, and obscured from them,2 yet it is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of His hands, and their names having been written in the book of Life from all eternity.3
  2. This perseverance of the saints, depends not upon their own free will but upon the immutability of the decree of election,4 flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with Him,5 the oath of God,6 the abiding of His Spirit, and the seed of God wthin them,7 and the nature of the covenant of grace;8 from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
  3. And though they may, through the temptation of Satan, and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein;9 whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit,10 come to have their graces and comforts impaired,11 have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded,12 hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves,13 yet shall they renew their repentance, and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus, to the end.14
1. Jn 10:28-29; Php 1:6; 2Ti 2:19; 1Jn 2:19.
2. Ps 89:31-32; 1Co 11:32.
3. Mal 3:6.
4. Ro 8:30; 9:11,16.
5. Ro 5:9-10; Jn 14:19.
6. Heb 6:17-18.
7. 1Jn 3:9.
8. Jer 32:40.
9. Mt 26:70,72,74.
10. Isa 64:5,9; Eph 4:30.
11. Ps 51:10,12.
12. Ps 32:3-4.
13. 2Sa 12:14.
14. Lk 22:32,61-62.

The Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith of 1742; Chapter 17, Of the Perseverance of the Saints.

Source

And to put it in much simpler terms:

Of the Perseverance of Saints We believe that such only are real believers as endure unto the end (58); that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors (59); that a special Providence watches over their welfare (60); and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (61).

58. John 8:31; 1 John 2:27-28; 3:9; 5:18
59. 1 John 2:19; John 13:18; Matt. 13:20-21; John 6:66-69; Job 17:9
60. Rom. 8:28; Matt. 6:30-33; Jer. 32:40; Psa. 121:3; 91:11-12
61. Phil. 1:6; 2:12-13; Jude 24-25; Heb. 1:14; 2 Kings 6:16; Heb. 13:5; 1 John 4:4

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833, Section 11, Of the Perseverance of the Saints

Source

That is what our historic Baptist confessions teach. That is what we believe the Bible teaches. And that is the standard for this room.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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acorn_777

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You sir, seem awfully down on the SBC.
That is what our historic Baptist confessions teach. That is what we believe the Bible teaches. And that is the standard for this room.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I respect that. Did you have any suggestions from my other posts in the thread. I still believe we can be lost in this world, yet I see the OSAS as God never letting His people go without seeking after them. Is that acceptable in SBC OSAS?
 
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holyrokker

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Once saved always saved.

Can someone give me Biblical support of this?
There are a good number of godly men and women who have trouble with this doctrine as well.

To me, it seems that one needs to twist Scriptures around a presumed truth of the the doctrine in order to "support it from Scripture."

I don't see it as the plain teaching of Scripture, though.
 
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Phileoeklogos

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V. God's Purpose of Grace
Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.
Genesis 12:1-3; Exodus 19:5-8; 1 Samuel 8:4-7,19-22; Isaiah 5:1-7; Jeremiah 31:31ff.; Matthew 16:18-19; 21:28-45; 24:22,31; 25:34; Luke 1:68-79; 2:29-32; 19:41-44; 24:44-48; John 1:12-14; 3:16; 5:24; 6:44-45,65; 10:27-29; 15:16; 17:6,12,17-18; Acts 20:32; Romans 5:9-10; 8:28-39; 10:12-15; 11:5-7,26-36; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; 15:24-28; Ephesians 1:4-23; 2:1-10; 3:1-11; Colossians 1:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 1:12; 2:10,19; Hebrews 11:39–12:2; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:2-5,13; 2:4-10; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:19; 3:2.


The above is from the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, the second paragraph summarizes the doctrine of Eternal Security/ Perserverance of the Saints, and as you can see it is in keeping with the Baptist confessions of the past, and agree or disagree with it, it does represent what the majority of Baptist have always held to.

Many people portray the doctrine as fire insurance, someone says a prayer and then goes off and does what ever they want to, even some Baptist have portrayed it that way, and those who do so, do not teach the doctrine rightly.

Some churchs, because of their understanding of salvation, have no place in their theology for false profession, there really are no tares, just wheat, so they have to believe that everyone that ever knelt at the altar was truly saved, and those that have apostasized were truly saved and fell away. Baptist have not historically believed that.

So what about those that do endure to the end, the truly saved, how did they arrive at that end? Were they kept by God's power or did they get there because they just made up their mind to, thru the power of self determination?

The doctrine of Eternal Security takes into account that God has not only provided the Way of Salvation, Christ, but also the means of salvation, ie... the things that keep us on the path,the Holy Spirit, Church, the Bible with it's promises and warnings, roadblocks and circumstances in life, prayer, etc.. and also the doctrine takes into account sin in a believer's life, something that those who don't hold to this doctrine have a hard time dealing with.

I came to the conclusion from the Scriptures, while being a member of a church that taught otherwise, that from all I could understand about the person and nature of God, the nature of salvation and all it entails, that God would not save anyone that He would lose, that eternal life is not a temporary condition based on the ability of man.
 
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DeaconDean

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I don't see it as the plain teaching of Scripture, though.

With all due respect brother, then I guess we are not kept by the power of God unto salvation? (cf. 1 Pet. 1:5)

With all due respect, I guess Jesus will not go out and find that 100th lamb that strayed from the flock? (cf. Mt. 18:12-13)

With all due respect brother, if you are born into the family of God, my bible tells me that I am a child of the king, an royal heir, a son of the Almighty, then one can become unborn? (cf. Rom. 8:16)

With all due respect, if Jesus turns us over to the Fathers care, and scripture tells us that no man (not even ourselves) can take us out of the Fathers hand, then we must asume that man is more powerful than God, because we can take ourselves out of His hand? (cf. Jn. 10:27-29)

With all due respect, our historic Baptist confessions and our faith have taught us this doctrine. It is one that has been a standard since at least 1742. And it is the standard of this room. And to teach contrary is wrong.

The doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints teaches us that a person who has truly been born from above, may stray away, even commit some sins which may bring reproach upon themselves, and may also bring about God's chastisement upon them, but in the end, they will perservere by the power of God unto salvation.

God has never lost a single sheep. Not one! And if He did, He would cease to be God!

eternal life is not a temporary condition based on the ability of man.

I have to agree. Eternal life is not eternal life if it can be gained in the morning, lost by lunch-time, and regained by supper-time. God is not an "Indian-Giver", He does not grant us eternal life, then take it back!

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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holyrokker

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With all due respect brother, then I guess we are not kept by the power of God unto salvation? (cf. 1 Pet. 1:5)
Your words betray you. You have not given me all due respect since you've presumed to know what I hold regarding the topic, and have attacked a strawman.

I expect more from you, DeaconDean
 
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DeaconDean

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Your words betray you. You have not given me all due respect since you've presumed to know what I hold regarding the topic, and have attacked a strawman.

I expect more from you, DeaconDean

Not so brother, I took your own words.

I don't see it as the plain teaching of Scripture, though.

Now who was it that said that?

I took your own words and scripture to prove a point.

Yet here, you attack me for:

You have not given me all due respect since you've presumed to know what I hold regarding the topic,

You say one thing in one post, then say something else in another.

What do scriptures say about that type of person?

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." -Jas. 1:8 (KJV)

Now either you do, or you don't believe OSAS.

There is no middle ground.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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I still believe we can be lost in this world, yet I see the OSAS as God never letting His people go without seeking after them. Is that acceptable in SBC OSAS?

How can one be "lost" and "saved"? :scratch:

Or "lost" yet "saved"? :scratch:

I just can't wrap my head around what your trying to say here.

I do know however, that we sing a song in church which goes something like this:

"I once was lost,
but now I'm found."

Or How can God never let His people go, without seeking after them? :scratch:

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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holyrokker

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Not so brother, I took your own words.


With all due respect brother, then I guess we are not kept by the power of God unto salvation? (cf. 1 Pet. 1:5)

With all due respect, I guess Jesus will not go out and find that 100th lamb that strayed from the flock? (cf. Mt. 18:12-13)

With all due respect brother, if you are born into the family of God, my bible tells me that I am a child of the king, an royal heir, a son of the Almighty, then one can become unborn? (cf. Rom. 8:16)

With all due respect, if Jesus turns us over to the Fathers care, and scripture tells us that no man (not even ourselves) can take us out of the Fathers hand, then we must asume that man is more powerful than God, because we can take ourselves out of His hand? (cf. Jn. 10:27-29)

Those are neither my words nor my beliefs.

You say one thing in one post, then say something else in another.
I have not contradicted myself.
What do scriptures say about that type of person?

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." -Jas. 1:8 (KJV)
This appears, to me, to be an implied insult.

You have, indeed, shown me disrespect.
 
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holyrokker

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I tend to agree with the points DeaconDean has been making. Furthermore its quite possible that he is giving you all of the respect that you deserve. Sadly you may anticipate more than you deserve.
This sounds as if you cannot respect someone with whom you disagree. I hope that isn't what you really think.
 
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JacobHall86

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No, it means that you view yourself too highly in this regard and instead of addressing what he has said claim you were disrespected and stop the discussion. I believe if you really felt disrespected you would take it up via PM and deal with the issues at hand.
 
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DeaconDean

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Those are neither my words nor my beliefs...You have, indeed, shown me disrespect.

Well then brother, who was it that said:

I don't see it as the plain teaching of Scripture, though.

Now who was it that said that? Me? :scratch:

You say in one post that that isn't the teachings of scripture, and just above you say:

Those are neither my words nor my beliefs.

You say one thing, and advocate another.

Perhaps I have misunderstood you.

So, do you deny that scriptures teach that "Christians" are:

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation"? (cf. 1 Pet. 1:5)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Lets look at another piece of scripture.

Here I shall quote from the Greek:

"ὁ δὲ βεβαιῶν ἡμᾶς σὺν ὑμῖν εἰς Χριστὸν καὶ χρίσας ἡμᾶς θεός, ὁ καὶ σφραγισάμενος ἡμᾶς καὶ δοὺς τὸν ἀρραβῶνα τοῦ πνεύματος ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ἡμῶν." -2 Cor. 1:21-22

Source

The word here we shall be dealing with is: "σφραγισάμενος"

And it means:

σφραγίζω,v {sfrag-id'-zo}
[SIZE=-1]1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal 1a) for security: from Satan 1b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret 1c) in order to mark a person or a thing 1c1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp 1c2) angels are said to be sealed by God 1d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing 1d1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt 1d1a) of a written document 1d1b) to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be [/SIZE]



2nd Corinthians 1:21-22
  • "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
  • Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."
We persevere because God has sealed or secured us eternally by His Spirit. We cannot have one of these doctrines without the other. By any common understanding of the language, for the saints to persevere (continue in a state of Grace) means that they are continually or eternally secured. i.e., once they are saved, they are always saved. For that is what secured or sealed means. So despite all the recent attempts by some theologians at separation (and some--well meaning), there really is no need for any distinction. Just because some stray from the true intent of the phrase, doesn't mean that we now have to reassign the phrase to their groups.


All who are truly in Christ persevere because they are secured eternally. Anything less, is Salvation by works. There is not one person who will ever be lost from the ranks of those called and chosen of God who had their sins forgiven by God. Because if one is eternally secure, he obviously cannot fall, and thus by definition must persevere. If not, then we have to redefine terms so eternal doesn't mean eternal. But then we are all just playing word games. A saint is either eternally secure, or else he is not a saint, and has not been made sanctified, Holy and unblamable before God. Because everlasting life cannot be temporary or fleeting. That would be a contradiction in terms.

Heb. 13:5: "I will never leave you or forsake thee"

Since when does, "I will never leave you" re-translate to "I will leave you if you don't keep up?" we cannot make our own private interpretations of scripture references, we must surrender to the authority.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,..And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." -Eph. 1:13, 4:30 (KJV)

That Greek word Sealed there is [sphragizo], meaning to stamp as secured. Clearly believers are secured by the Holy Spirit of God and not by their own works. And so how could they suddenly find themselves unsecured? And note carefully that they are sealed "until the redemption" of the purchased (in the blood of Christ) possession. It is absolutely ludicrous to take this verse and claim that it actually means that we are not secured by the Holy Spirit until the day of Redemption. Indeed, it would be tortuous of God's Word to do so. Christ went to prepare a place of inheritance for us, but He also sent the Holy Spirit to seal (secure) us unto the day of that we ultimately receive that purchased inheritance. Nothing could be plainer. Again, note that it is the Holy Spirit of promise. And God does not break His promises. Man assuredly does, but God does not. We are by His power sealed, preserved unto the day of the consummation when we receive our inheritance.

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," -Jude 1:24 (KJV)

Our God is a God of power, not an idle God who sits twiddling His thumbs worried that some of us will not make it. The truth is, we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Did God choose us before, knowing full well that we would never endure to the end to be saved? God is not the author of confusion, we were both foreknown and chosen unto eternal salvation. Or is it possible that He cannot "keep you from falling"?

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Rom. 8:38-39 (KJV)

That covers it all. In short, nothing can separate us from the love of God. Yet we're supposed to believe that the Christian can indeed be separated from the love of God in "direct" contradiction to God's word. We cannot be separated from God's merciful love by rulers, by powers, by creatures, by life, by deceivers, or even by ourselves. There is nothing that can separate the believer. And that makes null and void any interpretations by man that the believer can fall out of saving Grace with God. Jacob God loved, Esau He hated. Nothing could separate Jacob from that love of God. So the question is, who are we going to believe in all this? The words of men, or the Word of God that says over and over again that we cannot and will not be abandoned by God. What is our Authority? Is it the Word of God or the word of man?

When professed Christians deny eternal security, they are actually making an attack upon the very gospel itself. Because one must believe in the perseverance of the saints in order to accurately teach the good news of the unmerited favor of God. The gospel is of Grace. And let's face facts. When we get right down to the basics in the, "we can lose our salvation," camp, it's fundamental cornerstone is the belief that ultimately we retain our salvation by our "own work" in enduring. But the problem is, a work of enduring or maintaining favor with God, is not a gospel of Grace. It's the merit system, which God has warned us cannot be Grace. God's Word makes it perfectly clear that our own merit has nothing whatsoever to do with our Salvation. To deny this is to deny true Grace. We don't acquire salvation by merit, and we certainly don't hold on to salvation by our merit. Therefore we cannot say we will lose salvation by neglect. It is true, "we must endure to the end in order to be Saved." But the question is, who will endure and how. And the answer is those in whom God dwells and strengthens and guides that His will be done. Anything less is nothing more than a salvation by works merit system, dressed up to look like Grace.

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" -1 Pet. 1:5 (KJV)

The power or strength of God keeps us. And either this is true or it is all just words, and we're kept by our own work in endurance? One or the other, but certainly not both. The real question is, do we believe what God says, or do we follow after man's theories?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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HolyWarrior77

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I am witness that the Lord never forsakes you and does not leave you!

The Lord has ALWAYS pressed himself upon my heart while I was doing my own will for years after being saved.

And HERE I AM NOW, BACK IN THE ARMS OF THE LORD, more eager to be surrounded by Jesus, learn and soak up the Word of God, and experience the works of the HolySpirit!

:D :D :D :D :D I love God SO MUCH! :)
 
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Wizzer

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You sir, seem awfully down on the SBC.

I have my reasons, but that is for another time and place. (But I have similar kinds of issues with probably every denomination.)

I, however, stick to what Baptists have believed for over two centuries in the United States:
...
That is what our historic Baptist confessions teach. That is what we believe the Bible teaches. And that is the standard for this room.

But what if many Baptists are being misled concerning certain doctrines? (Or are Baptists the first and only denomination to have gotten everything right? And do all Baptists even agree on everything?) Recall that OSAS is really the 5th point of the calvinist system of biblical interpretation, and if that system be wrong, then maybe that 5th point is also wrong. And is it "unbaptist" to be willing to critically reexamine any teaching in light of continued scriptural study? And where does the priesthood of the believer fit into such an inquiry? And is the Holy Spirit to be hamstrung from revealing truth (and possibly correcting long-held but erroneous beliefs)? And does being Baptist mean one has to close one's mind to honest biblical inquiry, or close it only on certain lines? (And who defines those lines?) And to whom or what does one’s allegiance lie? Is one’s loyalty first and foremost to our God and Savior Jesus Christ (and biblical interpretation as directed by the living Spirit), or is one's allegiance owed to the SBC and the biblical interpretations of a small but imperfect group of men (who died long ago)? I thought Jesus alone was King, and my duty as a faithful priest was to submit to Him, not to the SBC or any other man-made institution.
 
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Salvopeter

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I find all the above most fascinating, but wonder why folk have to spend so much time debating with each other OSAS. You either believe it - hence Calvinism, or you don't - hence Arminianism.
OSAS is a Calvinistic doctrine, first taught by Calvin (see Jefferson Davis in an article published in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society (JD is a Calvinist himself). Also, look at Hendrickson Publishers A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More Than 700 Topics Discussed By The Early Church Fathers. Under the topic heading of SALVATION we find the question "Can those who are saved ever be lost?" Following several Scripture references there are five pages of quotes from the writings of early Christian leaders, which give evidence that the early church did not believe in OSAS. Rather, they taught that it was possible for a genuine believer to reject God and wind up eternally separated from God. (pp. 586-591.
Hoever, would it not be better if doctrinal arguments like this one which - lets face it - will never find agreement, were put on the back shelf, and rather we got out of our study's and shared the Good News with those who need it?

SalvoPeter
 
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JerryL

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I find all the above most fascinating, but wonder why folk have to spend so much time debating with each other OSAS. You either believe it - hence Calvinism, or you don't - hence Arminianism.
OSAS is a Calvinistic doctrine, first taught by Calvin (see Jefferson Davis in an article published in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society (JD is a Calvinist himself). Also, look at Hendrickson Publishers A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More Than 700 Topics Discussed By The Early Church Fathers. Under the topic heading of SALVATION we find the question "Can those who are saved ever be lost?" Following several Scripture references there are five pages of quotes from the writings of early Christian leaders, which give evidence that the early church did not believe in OSAS. Rather, they taught that it was possible for a genuine believer to reject God and wind up eternally separated from God. (pp. 586-591.
Hoever, would it not be better if doctrinal arguments like this one which - lets face it - will never find agreement, were put on the back shelf, and rather we got out of our study's and shared the Good News with those who need it?

SalvoPeter
So, why did you just interject your stance if you think it shouldn't be named here?
 
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