If they die in sin? Where do they go? Hell or heaven?
Here again, there is some confusion.
The Bible teaches us that there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. (Rom 5:9)
If they die in sin, then they will have to stand before the Lord and answer for that sin. They will still go to heaven, but perhaps part of their reward will be taken away.
I thought OSAS basically went by the idea that if someone died in sin, they weren't really saved, and they are in hell. Whereas, I believe someone earlier stated, if they are truly saved, they can't sin, they will live by Jesus.
Again, just a simple misunderstanding. Whoever said believers can't sin, was wrong.
I'm asking any one in this thread who claims to be saved, to tell they have not sinned since coming to salvation.
Peter in the New Testament sinned at least twice that we know of. He disobeyed God's command to "arise, kill, and eat" when the great sheet was let down. (Acts 10:9-16)
Paul confronted Peter in Galatians for being a hypocrite, and says that Peter was "condemned". (Gal. 2:11)
Because Peter sinned at least twice in Tthe New Testament, are you going to say Peter was not saved?
Just because your saved, does not mean you cannot commit a sin or sins.
And committing a sin or sins, does not mean that you were not saved in the first place!
I have no doubt in my mind that Peter was not saved, but by reason of his sinning twice in the NT, it would by your definition, mean that Peter was not saved and is now in hell.
A Christian can sin because we live still in the flesh. We have been "perfected" yet. We have not been given that glorified body that Christ has received. And until that day, Christians
can and will sin.
Let me explain something.
We have the parabler of the sower. (cf. Mt. 13:3-9)
In this parable, we have four classes of people. In the first class we see people who Jesus says:
"And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:" (vs. 4)
Here is one class of people who came to church, made a confession, and fell away. Why? Because they were not gounded in the truth, or faith. John Gill comments:
By the wayside; by the common road, or private paths, which led through corn fields, in which Christ and his disciples walked,
Mt 12:1 and which being beaten and trodden hard, the seed must lie open on it, and so be liable to be trampled upon by men, or devoured by the fowls of the air; and designs such hearers as are careless, negligent, and inattentive, who hear without understanding, judgment, and affection; see Mt 13:19
and the fowls came and devoured them; the other evangelists say, "the fowls of the air"; and so the Vulgate Latin, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel, and some copies; and mean the devils; so called, because their habitation is in the air; hence they are said to be "the power of the air": and because of their ravenous and devouring nature, their swiftness to do mischief, and their flocking in multitudes, where the word is preached, to hinder its usefulness, as fowls do, where seed is sowing. Satan, and his principalities, and powers, rove about in the air, come down on earth, and seek whom they may devour, and often mix themselves in religious assemblies, to do what mischief they can; see Job 1:6.
In verse 5 we read:
"Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:"
Here again, let me quote John Gill:
And forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth; to strike their roots downwards: and through the reflection of the heat, upon the rocks and stones, they quickly broke through the thin surface of the earth over them, and appeared above ground before the usual time of the springing up of seed: which may not only denote the immediate reception of the word by these hearers, and their quick assent to it; but their sudden and hasty profession of it, without taking due time to consider the nature and importance thereof; and the seeming cheerfulness in which they did both receive and profess it; though it was only outward and hypocritical, and more on account of the manner of preaching it, than the word itself, and through a selfish principle in them; and did not arise from any real experience of the power of it on their souls, or true spiritual pleasure in it: nor could it be otherwise, since their stony hearts were not taken away, nor hearts of flesh given them; wherefore the word had no place in them, and made no real impression on them; they remained dead in trespasses and sins; the word was not the savour of life unto life unto them, or the Spirit that giveth life; they did not become living and lively stones; they continued as insensible as ever of their state and condition by nature, of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, of the danger they were in, and of their need of Christ, and salvation by him; they were as hard, and obdurate, and as inflexible, as ever, without any real contrition for sin, or meltings of soul through the influence of the love and grace of God; and as backward as ever to submit to the righteousness of Christ, being stout hearted, and far from it; and being no more cordially willing to be subject to the sceptre of his kingdom, or to serve him in righteousness and holiness, than they ever were; for the word falling upon them, made no change in them; their hearts were as hard as ever, notwithstanding the seeming and hasty reception of it; though they did not refuse to hearken to the word externally, did not put away the shoulder, or stop their ears, yet their hearts were still like an adamant stone: nothing but the mighty power of God, and his efficacious grace, can break the rocky heart in pieces; or give an heart of flesh, a sensible, soft, and flexible one, with which a man truly repents of sin, believes in Christ, and becomes subject to him.
In verse 7 we read:
"And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:"
Again, I quote John Gill:
and the thorns sprung up: naturally, being neither sown nor planted; either before the seed, or, at least, as soon; and however grew faster, and higher,
and choked them; so that they came to nothing; hence the advice, "sow not among thorns", Jer 4:3 and a lost kindness, or what is bestowed in vain, is expressed in this proverbial manner {f}, yrzyxa
aydvw Kytwbyj hlwqv, "thy beneficence is taken away, and cast among thorns": these point out such hearers who seemed to be contrite, to have the low ground of their hearts broken up, their consciences tender, and to have a true sense of sin, as well as to be outwardly reformed; and yet inwardly were full of the thorns of sinful lusts, particularly of the cares of the world, the deceitfulness of riches, the lusts of other things, and the pleasures of this life, which rendered the word useless and unfruitful; see Mt 13:22 all which are comparable to thorns; it is hardly possible to be in the midst of, and meddle with these, without being scratched by them; they pierce, afflict, and wound, even where they have not their greatest power and influence; and where they do prevail, and get the ascendant, as they are fruitless themselves, they make others so too; they choke the word, and make that, and all ordinances, and opportunities, useless, and unserviceable. Thorns are a part of the earth's curse for the sin of man; and such persons in whom thorny cares and lusts prevail, as they are like unto the earth which beareth thorns, so, as that, they are rejected, and nigh to cursing, whose end is to be burned in everlasting flames of divine wrath and fury, Heb 6:8.
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In each of these 3 classes, we see people who came in, heard the word, made a profession, seemed to repent, seemed saved on the outside, but were never really changed by the power of the word nor by the power of God. These people came in, claimed to be Christian, yet when the cares of this world came into them, they forsook God and went back to a life of sin. Now, were these people ever really saved in the first place?
The logical answer is no!
But, the forth class of people we know are saved because we can see their fruits.
"But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold."
The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.
This was my only contention. That we all sin, and OSAS doesn't mean you have a free ride into heaven. Perseverance is essential, and needed to endure to the end, I donot think we are 'bound' by sin.
You are correct in "perservernce is essential", but here again, is perseverence something we do, or is something God does for us?
Scriptures say it is God's doing, not ours:
"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" -1 Pet. 1:5 (KJV)
God said in Genesis, Sin lies waiting at our door, but we should rule over it.
So, sin is a constant of the world, from day one.
Deacon, alot of baptists view it this way. We are not all learned. Thats why God calls certain ones to be the learned, to lead the flock.
I will add that up until this post, the idea was coming across in the manner I just mentioned above. Maybe we had words mixed up or something.
So to clarify. I think if a man is saved, it is possible to make a 'choice' or imply 'freewill' to keep in sin, and even die in sin. I felt the Baptists response is usually, they weren't really saved. Now, I know that God and Jesus said we can rule over sin, and overcome it. But, the point is denying Jesus is a sin, because they are denying the Father that sent Him.
Example, I am kinda the resident Christian on a site of unbelievers. I feel God calls people just for these people, His sheep, looking for the lost 1 out of 100. They are still His. But, will they go to hell if they keep in sin, and deny Jesus? Or are they just lost, and not found again yet?
The Bible says that if they deny Christ, they are "anti-christ". (cf. 1 Jn. 2:22)
And here again, "free will" is a whole 'nother doctrine.
But here, the OSAS and perseverence of the saints are closely tied together. OSAS does not teach that if you sin, you were never really saved to begin with. Every Christian on the face of the earth, sins. Perseverence teaches that a Christian may sin, they may even go out and live a life in sin, such as to bring reproach on themselves, but, in the end, if their salvation was true and genuine to begin with, then God will bring them back into the fold. The shepherd will go seek out that 100th lost sheep.
As for those who profess to be Christian, and go back out into the world and live just as they did prior to making a profession, then their salvation is doubtful as there is no change in their lives.
Now you made mention earlier about a "Christian" committing an act such as murder. No Christian is above sinning. You have a wife, whom you love very much. You come home one day and find her in bed with another man. It drives you over the edge and you get a gun and shoot him. You just committed murder. You sinned. But 1 Jn. 1:9 tells us that if we should do such a thing, all we have to do is ask for giveness and its done. We will not escape mans judgment for it, but God has forgiven us for it.
Let me go back a quote what I said earlier on a passage of scripture:
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Pelagius held a man-centered concept of salvation in which grace was unnecessary and man's heart was not affected by Adam's fall into sin. Augustine set forth the biblical teaching that Adam's sin was imputed to the race, that man did not have the moral ability to respond to Christ apart from the grace of God and, therefore, God was the initiator of salvation. Coupled with the idea that salvation was of the Lord was also the implication that God would carry out his plan and purpose in the life of each recipient of divine grace. Shortly after the time of Augustine, the Church moved away from his position and embraced a semi-pelagian concept in which man possessed an autonomous will that had the moral power to choose the gospel in and of itself. This laid the foundation for many of the Roman Catholic concepts of man contributing to his salvation through earning merit before God. Semi-Pelagianism focused on the power of man to choose the good; to make right moral decisions, and ultimately be able to choose Christ. This position denies the fact that Scripture teaches that man is dead in sin (Eph. 2:1-3; Col. 2:13); that no one is righteous, understands, or seeks for God (Rom. 3:9-12); that man is hostile to the law of God and is incapable of submitting to it (Rom. 8:7); that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44, 63-65); and that regeneration must precede faith (Eph. 2:1-5; John 3:1-10; John 1:12,13; 1 John 5:1). Semi-Pelagianism, in giving great power to man, also gives man the power to receive and reject salvation repeatedly. A person's salvation ultimately lies in the whims of that person's will. This is the background to the debate of whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation. The Augustinian position and later the position of the Reformers in the sixteenth century was that if a person is truly regenerate, God will protect and sustain that person so that he will persevere unto the end and be saved.
Many people who approach the Christian life in an antinomian (lawless) way and excuse their sin by saying, "It doesn't matter what I do, because I can't lose my salvation." That is a distortion, not only of grace, but also of the concept of salvation itself. Many of the arguments I have heard against the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints stem from understanding the doctrine in this way. Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 6 to demonstrate that if a person is truly in Christ, he cannot sin in order that grace might abound. Union with Christ presupposes a new heart that desires to obey God.
"For I am confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil.1:6) In John 6:37-40, Jesus states that all who the Father gives to him will come to him and the ones who come will not be cast out. Verses 39 and 40 say, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that he has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I myself will raise him up on the last day." Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe and he immediately connects the giving of eternal life to the resurrection; those who come to him will be raised up on the last day (see also: John 5:24; 6:44). Just as Philippians 1:6 says that God will perfect the work which he began to the day of Christ Jesus, so also Jesus ties coming to him and receiving eternal life with the idea of a future resurrection. Receiving eternal life is concomitant with being raised on the last day. The two ideas cannot be separated. Eternal life is not eternal if it can be lost in the morning and regained in the evening only to be lost again at some future date; it is not eternal if it lasts only five days or five years. When Jesus promises eternal life and connects the receiving of eternal life with a future resurrection, he is teaching that the true believer is eternally saved.
This same idea is reiterated in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." Again, Jesus states that he gives his sheep eternal life and emphasizes this by the statement that no one is able to snatch them out of either his or his Father's hand. Concerning this passage, some contend that although others cannot snatch a man out of God's hand, the man himself is free to do so. However, the verse states that no one can do this. That is a universal negative which certainly includes the man himself. The passage does not qualify the "no one" by saying that the regenerate man himself may make himself unregenerate and translate himself from the kingdom of God back into the kingdom and family of the devil. Another attempt to discount this passage argues that Satan can snatch a man out of the hand of God. This passage blatantly contends that the Father is greater than all and no one can snatch them out of his hand. That certainly includes the devil and man. This passage also demonstrates that the perseverance of the saints is actually a preservation by their Savior; their coming (being drawn by the Father) and their perseverance are grounded on God and not man (see: John 6:53,63-65).
If you believe in the sovereignty of God, that He is omnipotent, all powerful, then how can you disagree with the above passage? If man can take himself out of the Father’s hand, then in effect, that makes man more powerful than God! And this is not so. God sits on high, and rules all facets of my life, my world and is the only God.
The predominant teaching of Scripture is that the believer is eternally saved. The rejection of this position means that assurance of salvation is impossible. The most anyone could say is that at a present moment in their life they are in a state of grace, but they could not express assurance toward ultimate salvation; they could not say that they knew they were going to heaven because the possibility of falling from that state of grace sometime in their life exists. Those who hold that the true Christian can lose his salvation find themselves in disharmony with a preponderance of Scriptural evidence.
That is OSAS!
John 3:3-5 tells us that we must be "born-again." That Greek word translated "born-again" is "gennao" and means to be "born". Or properlly, generated. A.A. Hodge comments:
1. What the various Scripture terms by which this work of God is designated?
1st. "Creating anew."Ephesians 4:24. 2nd. "Begetting." James 1:18. 3rd. "Quickening." John 5:21; Ephesians 2:5. 4th. "Calling out of darkness into marvelous light." 1 Peter 2:9. The subjects of it are said, 1st. To be "alive from the dead." Romans 6:13. 2nd. To be "new creatures."2 Corinthians 5:17. 3rd. To be "born again."John 3:3, 7. 4th. To be "God's workmanship." Ephesians 2:10.
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At the moment of conversion, you are "regenerated", "born-again", born into the family of God. Can a person become unborn? Can you become "un-regenerated"? No!
That is OSAS!
God Bless
Till all are one.
