I am AMAZED......

[Auntie]

Today at 04:50 PM jseek21 said this in Post #81 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682318#post682318)

No, as the result of the degeneration of Christian society from giving honest answers to honest questions and answering through Biblical truth to using man's precepts, ideals, and philosophies to answer questions of spiritualality.

Look a little closer at this website, there is hardly a thread that doesn't include scripture references to answer questions pertaining to spiritual things. The Bible is our source, and the Holy Spirit teaches us, helping us to discern God's truth.

 

[seebs]

Today at 07:39 AM Job_38 said this in Post #68 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=681370#post681370)

Seeing that she is not Christ, she should stick with what is concrete. What she said is right, but it did not even address the reality of what we are talking about.

I thought we were supposed to follow Christ's examples.

Christ didn't use parables because He had a special parable license, granted only to omniscient beings.

Christ used parables because analogies, allegory, and metaphor are *GOOD WAYS TO COMMUNICATE*.

 

[seebs]

Today at 04:20 PM jseek21 said this in Post #76 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682251#post682251)

I never said we do not have the freedom to use parables, only that to make a true assertions a person must use a true source. As any english major knows, a research paper must be fully documented and sourced. Our source, as Christians, is the infalible Word of God. Thus if you are to fully show a belief to be true it should be in line with Biblical facts.

Er. The Bible is *a* source of truth. The world exists, the world is real, and we can also learn about the truth from the world.

The Bible is clear on this; in II Peter 3:16, we are told that the unwary can wrest false beliefs from the Bible, and in Romans, Paul tells us that creation itself testifies to God's glory.

You can read the Bible, misunderstand it, and end up with a false belief. If you study the world and *do* understand it, you will find the truth.

The Bible serves as a good way to confirm and verify your understanding, but it isn't "the" source.

THE source is God. He gives us many things, the Bible among them, from which to learn.

As any English major knows, if you only use one source, your paper isn't worth writing. If someone argues from the Bible, and makes a subtle mistake, it may be very hard to find the error - but immediately obvious if you consider the claims in the light of what you know about the world around you.

The Bible, without other information, is just an object. The languages in which we read it, the definitions of words... All of those come from outside the Bible.

 

[Job_38]

You can also study and world get a false view. Most likely, you will.

So which sources for salvation do we attain from nature?

From what you said, I could get truth from something like say, The Book of Mormon, since the Bible is only one of many sources?

 

[jseek21]

Today at 04:15 PM Auntie said this in Post #82 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682375#post682375)

Look a little closer at this website, there is hardly a thread that doesn't include scripture references to answer questions pertaining to spiritual things. The Bible is our source, and the Holy Spirit teaches us, helping us to discern God's truth.

I am not speaking of a specific but an overall.

 

[jseek21]

Today at 04:52 PM Job_38 said this in Post #85 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682433#post682433)

You can also study and world get a false view. Most likely, you will.

So which sources for salvation do we attain from nature?

From what you said, I could get truth from something like say, The Book of Mormon, since the Bible is only one of many sources?

agreed.

 

[Susan]

I believe the Bible should be our prevailing authority, in other words, if observation/commentary/whatever contradicts the Bible, go with the Bible.

However, one must also understand that the Bible is a book that takes learning to understand. "Well, I just believe what it says" leads to just as much error, or even more error, than trying to find out what it means.

For instance, an entire doctrine which many people consider erroneous was based on this approach to 3 John 2 KJV, which reads "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." Someone believed that it was a promise of prosperity from God to all Christians. The meaning of the verse, however, was/is entirely different. It was a greeting from John to Gaius, and a greeting commonly used in the day among Christians: much like someone signing off a letter with "Be blessed" or "Praying for you" in this time.

My point is that God gave us His Word to follow: but He also gave us history and context for His Word, languages for it to be printed in, and an abilty to understand it in part. Above all He gave us His Word so that we would know Him and please Him: NOT so we could denounce others or so we could have "all of the answers."

 

[Susan]

The following is more of "man's wisdom" but it may help you understand why us poor, unenlightened souls are not recieving many of the arguments presented.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

 

[jseek21]

Today at 05:11 PM Susan said this in Post #88 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682461#post682461)

I believe the Bible should be our prevailing authority, in other words, if observation/commentary/whatever contradicts the Bible, go with the Bible.

However, one must also understand that the Bible is a book that takes learning to understand. "Well, I just believe what it says" leads to just as much error, or even more error, than trying to find out what it means.

For instance, an entire doctrine which many people consider erroneous was based on this approach to 3 John 2 KJV, which reads "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." Someone believed that it was a promise of prosperity from God to all Christians. The meaning of the verse, however, was/is entirely different. It was a greeting from John to Gaius, and a greeting commonly used in the day among Christians: much like someone signing off a letter with "Be blessed" or "Praying for you" in this time.

My point is that God gave us His Word to follow: but He also gave us history and context for His Word, languages for it to be printed in, and an abilty to understand it in part. Above all He gave us His Word so that we would know Him and please Him: NOT so we could denounce others or so we could have "all of the answers."

Susan, your point is well made, and I even agree with the part that we have to take the Bible into account of history and context. Yet that is not of which I speak. It is not the Truth of His Word that hharms people, but the precepts they bring to it when they read it. That is how we get such ideas as the prosperity idea. As for understanding, the understanding that we use to understand the Bible is not of us but of God. Unregenerate man cannot understand the truth of Scripture. thus that understanding is not of us but is of God. It is when man tries to use his own wisdom that we find falsehood.

 

[Susan]

"Unregenerate man cannot understand the truth of Scripture." That is exactly true, jseek, however all of us here, as far as I know (only God really knows), are NOT unregenerate.

 

[jseek21]

True, yet while we have been regenerated and have been given Godly wisdom, in our sin we at times reject the true understanding and wisdom He has given us for our own. It, if nothing else, is one of the roots of sin. That man, in defiance to God's Will, tries it on His own and fails. This is how, even through saved men, we have dangerous false teachings enter into the Church. This is why a preacher must rely on God's Truth and not that man's personal thoughts and presuppositions.

 

[Auntie]

Today at 05:52 PM Job_38 said this in Post #85 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682433#post682433)


From what you said, I could get truth from something like say, The Book of Mormon, since the Bible is only one of many sources?

Job, you don't learn anything from reading the Book of Mormon? Think about it, doesn't the Book of Mormon reveal the truth of the Bible? Isn't it a confirmation of Biblical scripture?


Matthew 24:11

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."



And similarly, you might listen to the news and hear talk of war. Jesus said, "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."


We read and study the world around us, we ponder the things we see and hear. And then we compare what we have learned from the world, to what we read in the Bible. I think it is amazing the way so much of the Bible lines up with what is going on in the world today.

 

[Auntie]

Today at 05:29 PM seebs said this in Post #83 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682401#post682401)


Christ used parables because analogies, allegory, and metaphor are *GOOD WAYS TO COMMUNICATE*.

I get this stuff confused, seebs. Can you give me an example of each one? For example, was Susan using a parable or an analogy? And when Jseek said: "Spurgeon, Lewis, and Edwards must be rolling in their graves.", is that a metaphor?

 

[seebs]

Yesterday at 05:52 PM Job_38 said this in Post #85 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682433#post682433)

You can also study and world get a false view. Most likely, you will.

Given that there's 30,000 denominations of Christians out there, most of them "Bible believers", that's true of the Bible too - and the Bible even warns us of this! 2 Peter 3:16.

So which sources for salvation do we attain from nature?

The only *source* of salvation is God. Not nature, not the Bible, not *anything* but God.

However, Romans tells us that God is *evident* from nature.

From what you said, I could get truth from something like say, The Book of Mormon, since the Bible is only one of many sources?

Nice straw man!

The claim that there is more than one source of true information is not the same as the claim that every source of information provides truth, nor is it similar.

Anyway, for all I know, there *are* true things in the Book of Mormon, although I'd be inclined to call that "coincidence".

Still... Dictionaries, for one. Language. The experience of love. Aesthetics. Joy. None of these are "part of the Bible"; they're parts of the world, that make it possible for the Bible's message to mean anything to us.

 

[seebs]

Yesterday at 10:46 PM Auntie said this in Post #94 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682919#post682919)

I get this stuff confused, seebs. Can you give me an example of each one? For example, was Susan using a parable or an analogy? And when Jseek said: "Spurgeon, Lewis, and Edwards must be rolling in their graves.", is that a metaphor?

Heh.

Parable: A story which is almost certainly not factual, but expresses something about the people involved. The story is clearly just for teaching. The characters and situations are possible, but are not necessarily factual.

Allegory: A story in which things stand for other things. Most often, fairly *different* things; for instance, many people feel that Gandalf's resurrection, in LotR, is an allegory for Christ's resurrection. Some parables have allegories; the prodigal son's father is probably an allegory for God.

Analogy: Comparison. Susan's example was an analogy; she didn't tell "the story of the three pilots", she just used examples.

Metaphor: Things like "Get thee behind me, Satan" would be metaphors; Christ isn't actually saying that Peter is Satan, He's saying that Peter has attributes similar to Satan's in a particular context.

"Rolling in graves" is a figure of speech.

 

[seebs]

Yesterday at 09:24 PM jseek21 said this in Post #92 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682781#post682781)

True, yet while we have been regenerated and have been given Godly wisdom, in our sin we at times reject the true understanding and wisdom He has given us for our own. It, if nothing else, is one of the roots of sin. That man, in defiance to God's Will, tries it on His own and fails. This is how, even through saved men, we have dangerous false teachings enter into the Church. This is why a preacher must rely on God's Truth and not that man's personal thoughts and presuppositions.

And yet, the idea of word-for-word inerrancy is itself a man-made idea.

 

[Auntie]

Today at 12:42 AM seebs said this in Post #96 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=683090#post683090)

Heh.

Parable: A story which is almost certainly not factual, but expresses something about the people involved. The story is clearly just for teaching. The characters and situations are possible, but are not necessarily factual.

Allegory: A story in which things stand for other things. Most often, fairly *different* things; for instance, many people feel that Gandalf's resurrection, in LotR, is an allegory for Christ's resurrection. Some parables have allegories; the prodigal son's father is probably an allegory for God.

Analogy: Comparison. Susan's example was an analogy; she didn't tell "the story of the three pilots", she just used examples.

Metaphor: Things like "Get thee behind me, Satan" would be metaphors; Christ isn't actually saying that Peter is Satan, He's saying that Peter has attributes similar to Satan's in a particular context.

"Rolling in graves" is a figure of speech.

Thanks seebs. I love this kind of stuff, especially allegories. Language and communication is most interesting.

 

[jseek21]

Yesterday at 09:36 PM Auntie said this in Post #93 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682906#post682906)

Job, you don't learn anything from reading the Book of Mormon? Think about it, doesn't the Book of Mormon reveal the truth of the Bible? Isn't it a confirmation of Biblical scripture?

No.

http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/biologist_looks.htm

http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/comparisons.htm

http://www.concernedchristians.org/library/scripturereference.html

http://www.concernedchristians.org/teachings_lds.html

And similarly, you might listen to the news and hear talk of war. Jesus said, "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."


We read and study the world around us, we ponder the things we see and hear. And then we compare what we have learned from the world, to what we read in the Bible. I think it is amazing the way so much of the Bible lines up with what is going on in the world today. [/B]

How can you compare an absolute Truth to the synthetic changing world around us? We can look to the Bible and find answers and help for our modern world and daily lives, but not vice versa. When you try and mold the Bible to our world it is a very dangerous thing; it is possibly the root of heresy, because our world is ever-changing, always giving space for new sin. Yet the Bible is absolute and unchanging throughout history. It is God's Word. Yet you can mold our world to the Bible, but we do not have to, because God already has.

 

[Job_38]

Today at 04:36 AM Auntie said this in Post #93

Job, you don't learn anything from reading the Book of Mormon? Think about it, doesn't the Book of Mormon reveal the truth of the Bible? Isn't it a confirmation of Biblical scripture?


Matthew 24:11

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

No, No I do not. You just showed why we cannot take other "truths" to learn from. Thanks.

 

 

[Auntie]

Today at 01:01 PM Job_38 said this in Post #100 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=683788#post683788)

No, No I do not. You just showed why we cannot take other "truths" to learn from. Thanks.

 

So you don't believe the Bible when it says we will have false prophets and false teachers in the world?? That seems odd to me.