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I am AMAZED......

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seebs

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Today at 01:01 PM Job_38 said this in Post #100 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=683788#post683788)

No, No I do not. You just showed why we cannot take other "truths" to learn from. Thanks.

I don't think you got her point; if, studying the Book of Mormon, you find yourself convinced that it's false, then it's confirmation of the Bible.

However, your straw man is still ludicrous; the holy texts of another religion are hardly the only things in the world other than the Bible. How about a basic algebra text? Good source for truth, or understanding? How about personal experience?
 
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jseek21

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Today at 01:23 PM seebs said this in Post #102 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=683905#post683905)

I don't think you got her point; if, studying the Book of Mormon, you find yourself convinced that it's false, then it's confirmation of the Bible.

However, your straw man is still ludicrous; the holy texts of another religion are hardly the only things in the world other than the Bible. How about a basic algebra text? Good source for truth, or understanding? How about personal experience?


Does Math, Science, and personal experience override the Word of God?

Remember, big difference between "truth" and "Truth." When we speak of Truth we speak of absolute, nonchanging, infallible spiritual Truth. While truth can be subjective, Truth is not.
 
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jseek21

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The Bible warns us of false teachers. Thus we can see the Book of Mormon and say, "false teachings." Yet it is not the Book of Mormon that teaches us to watch out for their own false teachings, but the absolute of the Bible which warns us. You're using circular logic here. It is the Bible which speaks to the Book of Mormon, not the Book of Mormon that speaks to the Bible.
 
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seebs

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Today at 02:41 PM jseek21 said this in Post #103 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=683930#post683930)

Does Math, Science, and personal experience override the Word of God?

Does Matthew override Luke?

If you find that mathematics is conflicting with your understanding of the Word of God, your understanding of either mathematics or the Word of God is incorrect.


Remember, big difference between "truth" and "Truth." When we speak of Truth we speak of absolute, nonchanging, infallible spiritual Truth. While truth can be subjective, Truth is not.

I don't buy the distinction. Truth is not subjective. Whether 2+2 is 4 is not subject to culture or context; it's just an implication of the definitions of the concepts involved.

I don't think science overrides the truth of the Bible. I do think that people who study the Bible in ignorance of science may come to false beliefs about what the Bible really says.
 
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Auntie

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Today at 02:23 PM seebs said this in Post #102 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=683905#post683905)

I don't think you got her point; if, studying the Book of Mormon, you find yourself convinced that it's false, then it's confirmation of the Bible.


Exactly, thank you seebs.:) As an analogy: If my mother says, "Don't touch that stove! It's hot and you'll get burned!" And I proceed to touch the stove anyway, AND get a bad burn, then what did the stove teach me? The stove taught me that mom was right!:) The stove confirmed and verified the truth of my mother's words.
 
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Job_38

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Then you better clarify better.

But would you be able to discern the BoM if you never read the Bible?

Personal experiences can bring you to knowing God. BUT, if I am traveling a long road, I should know more about than the man who just reads the map? But that isn't so, because the map is based on hundreds of people that have traveled it over and over.

But, I cannot know the road fully if I only read the map. I must experience it.

The same with God. I can learn stuff about God if I am walking in the desert and feel God. But I cannot fully know unless I also study His Word. The same is vice versa. I must make true the verse: For me to live is Christ.
 
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Job_38

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Today at 08:46 PM seebs said this in Post #105



I don't think science overrides the truth of the Bible. I do think that people who study the Bible in ignorance of science may come to false beliefs about what the Bible really says.

&nbsp;I partially agree. You need to also live in Gods creation to know Him, but you cannot learn from the naturaul world all of what God wants us too.

Romans 1 speaks on this issue. It talks about people knowing God, but they did not recognize Him as God.
 
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Auntie

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Today at 03:17 PM Job_38 said this in Post #107 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=683974#post683974)


Personal experiences can bring you to knowing God. BUT, if I am traveling a long road, I should know more about than the man who just reads the map? But that isn't so, because the map is based on hundreds of people that have traveled it over and over.

But, I cannot know the road fully if I only read the map. I must experience it.



You have reminded me of a funny thing that happened to me.:) I was dating a guy(my husband) who was an expert with horses. I didn't know anything about horses, so I bought some books on "everything you ever wanted to know about horses". I read, studied and memorized until I could quote most of the books. I then *knew* most everything about horses. Then he asked me, "Do you know how to ride horses?". I said sure, I know how to ride.:) Ha! He put me on a fast Quarter horse, and we went riding. My horse stopped in a ditch to drink water, and he refused to move, so I gave him some quick swift kicks. He took off at a wide open run, and wouldn't stop for anything! I was in big trouble, I'd lost the reins, and was terrified. My soon to be husband caught up with my runaway horse, and managed to stop him. He said to me: "You told me you knew how to ride!!" I said "I read all the books about it, so I was SURE I knew how to ride!":D :D

So yes, LIFE is the great teacher. A man can have a Seminary degree, but only when he spends his days at the hospital, praying with people who are dying, does he ever really learn what he has read about.
 
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jseek21

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Today at 01:46 PM seebs said this in Post #105 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=683939#post683939)

Does Matthew override Luke?

If you find that mathematics is conflicting with your understanding of the Word of God, your understanding of either mathematics or the Word of God is incorrect.



I don't buy the distinction. Truth is not subjective. Whether 2+2 is 4 is not subject to culture or context; it's just an implication of the definitions of the concepts involved.

I don't think science overrides the truth of the Bible. I do think that people who study the Bible in ignorance of science may come to false beliefs about what the Bible really says.

recently in my city a parent sued her child's school because they gave her child a well deserved "F" in mathematics. The parent won the suit. In our culture, everything is subjective. thus there are two types of truths: truth being subjective, and the Truth being objective.

The Truth does not change.
truth does.
 
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jseek21

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yet is it not the Word of God that gives us the knowledge that the road is there and how to travel it? I have been camping a few times and without my map would never had known where the primitive roads are, where shelter is, water, ect. Experience is a learning apparatus, but does not take the place of His Word. Without his Word we could not handle the experiences.
 
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seebs

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Yesterday at 04:15 PM jseek21 said this in Post #111 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=684047#post684047)
recently in my city a parent sued her child's school because they gave her child a well deserved "F" in mathematics. The parent won the suit. In our culture, everything is subjective. thus there are two types of truths: truth being subjective, and the Truth being objective.

The Truth does not change.
truth does.

No, people just miscall things "truth" which aren't.
 
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seebs

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Yesterday at 04:18 PM jseek21 said this in Post #112 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=684048#post684048)

yet is it not the Word of God that gives us the knowledge that the road is there and how to travel it? I have been camping a few times and without my map would never had known where the primitive roads are, where shelter is, water, ect. Experience is a learning apparatus, but does not take the place of His Word. Without his Word we could not handle the experiences.

It would be much, much, harder, certainly. People used to travel without roads or maps; it can be done, if you have a good guide. I understand God's available.
 
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Job_38

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Today at 06:07 AM seebs said this in Post #113

No, people just miscall things "truth" which aren't.


&nbsp;His point (I am guessing) was that people percieve the obvious truth as something they can change to fit their beliefs.

&nbsp;&nbsp; This is a folly. This is a folly because, just as the rock will be there whether I think it is or not, the Truth of God will always be.



It would be much, much, harder, certainly. People used to travel without roads or maps; it can be done, if you have a good guide. I understand God's available.


&nbsp;Yes. Abso-freaking-lutely. And God has given us a guide and we call it the Bible.

&nbsp;
 
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Texas Lynn

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28th February 2003 at 02:46 AM seebs said this in Post #60

Yes. In the last 150 years or so, the face of theology has been radically altered by people trying to change theology to protect it against undesired changes. Modern notions of word-for-word inerrancy are a human invention of the last hundred years or so; before that, everyone considered interpretation of Scripture to be a challenging task requiring study and knowledge. Most of this rests on the questionable translation of II Timothy 3:16 as saying that "all Scripture is ...", when it is quite likely that a more correct reading would be "All Scripture inspired by God is suitable...", meaning "whatever parts of this are inspired by God, are suitable for...". Similarly, the reinterpretation of Paul's reference to the Old Testament and early Gospels into "everything currently sold under the name Bible" changes things substantially.

These changes were introduced recently, and have done immense harm to the faith.

I agree.&nbsp; Changes in the relationship between the individual and society came about as the result of The Enlightenment which resulted in changes in the role of religion in society.&nbsp; Many Christians, for instance George Washington, were taken aback by excesses of enlightenment ideas such as Thomas Paine's deism or atheism, whichever you'd label it.&nbsp; In the 1820s-1830s, a movement to end the state churches in some of the states here (disestablishmentarianism) was ultimately successful (ironically some such as Tom Minnery of Focus on the Family have actually proposed we go back to an established (government-supported) church [hopefully his, apparently]).&nbsp;

Fundamentalism in American Protestantism is as seebs said rather new.&nbsp; The Catholic vision has always been that church authorities determine the meaning of the Bible and Protestantism arose in part due to opposition to that.&nbsp; Fundamentalism as expressed in Biblical literacism and legalism CLAIMS to honor the authority of the Bible but they neglect to say "as we interpret it".&nbsp;

I found an interesting exchange in John Killinger's Ten Things I Learned Wrong in a Conservative Church during a meeting he described with Jerry Falwell (Killinger is a liberal Baptist who was formerly fundamentalist).&nbsp; Killinger asked the Sage of Lynchburg "You must know that in the Fourth Gospel [John] Jesus' cleansing of the Temple comes very early, in the second chapter, and is seen as a grand act by which Jesus commences his ministry.&nbsp; In the other Gospels, the synoptics, the same act is set at the end of Jesus' ministry, in the last week of his life.&nbsp; If the Bible is literally true and God insired every word of it, as you claim, how do you account for this discrepancy?&nbsp; Was God being forgetful when he dictated the Fourth Gospel?"&nbsp; Falwell declined to answer.
 
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jseek21

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Today at 02:16 AM Texas Lynn said this in Post #116 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=684889#post684889)


I found an interesting exchange in John Killinger's Ten Things I Learned Wrong in a Conservative Church during a meeting he described with Jerry Falwell (Killinger is a liberal Baptist who was formerly fundamentalist).&nbsp; Killinger asked the Sage of Lynchburg "You must know that in the Fourth Gospel [John] Jesus' cleansing of the Temple comes very early, in the second chapter, and is seen as a grand act by which Jesus commences his ministry.&nbsp; In the other Gospels, the synoptics, the same act is set at the end of Jesus' ministry, in the last week of his life.&nbsp; If the Bible is literally true and God insired every word of it, as you claim, how do you account for this discrepancy?&nbsp; Was God being forgetful when he dictated the Fourth Gospel?"&nbsp; Falwell declined to answer.


Luke, for example, was a stickler to chronology and methodology. Most of the Gospels follow the timeline of Jesus's life. John however does not. John instead tells all the important things in no particular order. John's mission was not to keep things in a timeline, but to instead tell the people of who Jesus was.
 
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jseek21

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When I say Christianity is true I mean it is true to total reality -- the total of what is, beginning with the central reality, the objective existence of the personal-infinite God. Christianity is not just a series of truths but Truth -- Truth about all of reality. And the holding to that Truth intellectually -- and then in some poor way living upon that Truth, the Truth of what is -- brings forth not only certain personal results, but also governmental and legal results.
(Francis A. Schaeffer, A Christian Manifesto, Ch. 1)
 
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seebs

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Today at 12:24 AM Job_38 said this in Post #115 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=684727#post684727)
It would be much, much, harder, certainly. People used to travel without roads or maps; it can be done, if you have a good guide. I understand God's available.


&nbsp;Yes. Abso-freaking-lutely. And God has given us a guide and we call it the Bible.
[/B]

No, the Bible is a roadmap. God's a guide. The map is still useless without the guide, but the guide can lead you where you need to go without the map.

People were saved before "the Bible" existed. Billions of people have been saved even though there were parts of the Bible they never saw.

People who were guided by God made notes; that's the Bible. God's still out there, though, and you can always ask Him for advice.
 
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jseek21

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OBJECTION 1
Inerrancy is not important
It is quibbling about insignificant details. What really matters is a person's relationship to Jesus Christ.

ANSWER
A person's relationship to Jesus Christ is of the highest importance. No Christian would ever want to dispute that. But how do you know Jesus except as he is presented to you in the Bible? If the Bible is not God's Word and does not present a picture of Jesus Christ that can be trusted, how do you know it is the true Christ you are following? You may be worshiping a Christ of your own imagination. Moreover, you have this problem. A relationship to Jesus is not merely a question of believing on him as one's Savior. He is also your Lord, and this means he is the one who is to instruct you as to how you should live and what you should believe. How can he do that apart from an inerrant Scripture? If you sit in judgment on Scripture, Jesus is not really exercising his Lordship in your life. He is merely giving advice which you consider yourself free to disobey, believe or judge in error. You are actually the lord of your own life.

OBJECTION 2
Inerrancy is not Biblical
The Bible does not say it is inerrant. It only says it is inspired.

ANSWER
This is like saying that the Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. True, the Bible does not contain the word "trinity," and nowhere does it say in so many words, "There are three persons in the one God — God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit." But the Trinity is still clearly and emphatically taught. The Bible teaches that there is one God. It also teaches that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are distinct from the Father and from each other and yet that each is divine. Our doctrine of the Trinity is merely a logical and consistent way of stating these two truths. It is the same with the doctrine of inerrancy. The word "inerrancy" does not occur in Scripture, nor does Scripture say, "The Bible is without error in all it affirms." Yet the doctrine of inerrancy is there. It is a necessary and obvious conclusion based on two other truths that Scripture does declare clearly. First, the Bible is God's Word. That is, the very words of Scripture are the words of God. Second, God is a God of truth and therefore speaks truthfully. If those statements are true, the only possible conclusion is that the Bible is inerrant in everything it teaches.

OBJECTION 4
Inerrancy is refuted by modern scholarship.
It may have been possible to believe in inerrancy in a less knowledgeable or sophisticated age, but we know today that this view is impossible.

ANSWER
What argument has persuaded you that the Bible has errors in it and is therefore not totally true? Are there real, provable errors? Or are you just adopting the skeptical mind set of our contemporary unbelieving world? One class of supposed errors is miracles. "The Bible must be making a mistake when it says that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, because dead men don't rise," some say.. "The iron could not float, the sun could not stand still." The issue here is not error but faith in God or lack of it. Just because you have not seen a resurrection does not mean that resurrections never occur. In fact, if God repeated miracles too often, they would cease to be miracles and would lose their evidential value. The real issue is whether or not there is a God such as the Bible depicts. If there is, then no miracle is beyond possibility. Besides, if you accept the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, which you should, the other miracles are easy.

A second class of supposed errors has to do with moral issues. In Joshua the Jewish people are commanded by God to kill the Canaanites. Some regard this as an error, because on the basis of their own outlook "the killing of innocent people is morally wrong." This forgets two important points. First, the Canaanites were far from innocent. Second, God is the Lord of life. He gave life and has the right to take it away. The only error here is the error of assuming you or other fallen human beings have the right to pronounce on the rightness or wrongness of God's decrees or actions.

The most significant class of supposed errors are apparent contradictions within the Bible. Examples would be the length of time Israel is said to have been in bondage in Egypt (Genesis 15:13 says it was 400 years, while Exodus 12:41 says it was 430 years) or the number of angels reported as being at Christ's tomb following the Resurrection (John 20:12 mentions two, Matthew 28:2 only one). These are divergent ways of reporting the events, of course. But they are not contradictory. The difference in the number of years the Jews are said to have been in Egypt may be the result of one writer starting from a different point than the other or of one giving an exact figure while the other is rounding the number off. So far as the angels are concerned, if there were the two John reports, there was certainly one, as Matthew says. People who deny inerrancy try to give the impression that the discovery of problems like these has led them to abandon the inerrancy position. But these problems are not new. They have been known down through the centuries, and reasonable answers have been given to them. So far as evidence goes, we have more evidence for a high view of the Bible today than in earlier times. Discoveries from the Dead Sea, Summeria, Nag Hammadi, and now more recently from Ebla in Syria, provide more support than ever for the position that evangelicals have long held.
 
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