I am AMAZED......

[dignitized]

all other truths are subordinate and pale in the light of the everlasting truth of Christ Crucified.

 

[jseek21]

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All truths of Scripture are as important. You cannot accept Christ's ressurection and reject the trinity, or Paul's ministry, ect. and have everything be ok. This is why all of Scripture is on the same level of importance: because they tie toghether. If one falls, they all do. Now the Truth of Christ is the climax of Scripture, yet belief in Christ and rejection of all other parts of the Word is not a good thing. We are to bind ourselves with the Word.

 

[Job_38]

Search for the truth? The Truth has never been lost. The Truth is Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border=0>[\b]

&nbsp;

&nbsp;Where that is true, its not entirely true. The problem lies when a group (religion, cult, whatever) uses a banner of truth, using Christ and such, then we must accept them, if this is the manner in which we honor truth.

 

[Job_38]

Hey jseek, do you have any Shaffer I could *borrow*

 

[Job_38]

Thanks.

...i felt so wrong doing that.

 

[Michael0701]

Job_38,

Is that a marxist graphic/symbol?

 

[Job_38]

Its an inside joke.

 

[Susan]

Today at 04:26 PM jseek21 said this in Post #43

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All truths of Scripture are as important. You cannot accept Christ's ressurection and reject the trinity, or Paul's ministry, ect. and have everything be ok. This is why all of Scripture is on the same level of importance: because they tie toghether. If one falls, they all do. Now the Truth of Christ is the climax of Scripture, yet belief in Christ and rejection of all other parts of the Word is not a good thing. We are to bind ourselves with the Word.

So jseek, you are saying that if someone is wrong on the timing of Creation, their view of eschatology, the proper manner of baptism, whether an action is sinful or not, what Bible version they use, what their political beliefs are, or something else of that nature, they cannot be saved or at least they cannot be effective as a Christian? I find that hard to believe.

Now, if someone is denying the Trinity or Paul's ministry, that is an entirely different matter (please note that someone who questions the interpretation of a verse in the letters of Paul is not necessarily throwing his entire ministry or God's Word through him into doubt) because the Trinity and the inspiration of the Bible are primary beliefs.

I am sorry, but there IS a difference between primary error, (which DOES risk one's salvation) secondary error, (which may effect someone's effectiveness but is not something to consider someone a lesser or weaker Christian over) and tertiary error (which is something ALL of us suffer from, because we are not God and it is impossible for a human to know absolutely everything, be 100%&nbsp;righteous aside from Christ's imputed righteousness, and be perfect in everything)

(I would compare this difference to&nbsp;different piloting errors.

The equivalent of a primary error would be not refueling when needed or flying into a mountaintop or the ground. This kind of error is either fatal or very injurious, as it induces a crash.

The equivalent of a secondary error would be safely landing at the wrong airport or not&nbsp;filing the proper paperwork.&nbsp;It isn't fatal, and it causes no "real" injury,&nbsp;however it could be very embarrassing or&nbsp;quite an inconvenience.&nbsp;

The equivalent of a tertiary error would be failing to wash the outside of the&nbsp;plane often enough or not wearing a bomber jacket with the "proper" patches. This error is only "discerned" by&nbsp;someone who wants to&nbsp;make&nbsp;himself look "better," as it has no bearing on anything except&nbsp;appearance&nbsp;and most people would not even notice.)&nbsp;

 

[jseek21]

My dear you have pegged me wrong, yet do not be ashamed, you are one amongst many. If a person is saved yet does not understand Scripture they are still saved. That is the greatness of Christ, that it is nothing of us but all of Him.
Any error that risks one's salvation would throw out all other error, because this person has rejected the Scripture as a whole (i.e. you reject Christ you reject all of Scripture). When I say you cannot except Christ yet reject the Trinity and have everything be ok, I do not mean that you are not saved, but that you do have error, and that is not a good thing.
Using that same idea, a man who believes in Christ yet rejects every other part of Scripture is a-ok. This is not true. The Scripture, being God-breathed and infallible, is the same. Remember, it is He who has given us these Truths. How can we say it is ok to come to the Sizzler of Scripture and pick and choose as we please? Is not ALL of Scripture given by God and profitable for all things? Thus is it not all important?

And from this time forward let us use Scripture and Biblical Truths to examine these ideas, and not man-made examples such as planes.

 

[Job_38]

Today at 01:19 AM Susan said this in Post #50


(I would compare this difference to&nbsp;different piloting errors.

The equivalent of a primary error would be not refueling when needed or flying into a mountaintop or the ground. This kind of error is either fatal or very injurious, as it induces a crash.

The equivalent of a secondary error would be safely landing at the wrong airport or not&nbsp;filing the proper paperwork.&nbsp;It isn't fatal, and it causes no "real" injury,&nbsp;however it could be very embarrassing or&nbsp;quite an inconvenience.&nbsp;

The equivalent of a tertiary error would be failing to wash the outside of the&nbsp;plane often enough or not wearing a bomber jacket with the "proper" patches. This error is only "discerned" by&nbsp;someone who wants to&nbsp;make&nbsp;himself look "better," as it has no bearing on anything except&nbsp;appearance&nbsp;and most people would not even notice.)&nbsp;

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

Well, you did explain what secondary beliefs are, but I am confused. Which point made by jseek was wrong and denied salvation?


&nbsp;

 

[dignitized]

Today at 07:26 PM jseek21 said this in Post #43

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All truths of Scripture are as important. You cannot accept Christ's ressurection and reject the trinity, or Paul's ministry, ect. and have everything be ok. This is why all of Scripture is on the same level of importance: because they tie toghether. If one falls, they all do. Now the Truth of Christ is the climax of Scripture, yet belief in Christ and rejection of all other parts of the Word is not a good thing. We are to bind ourselves with the Word.

And what of the truths not recorded in Scripture? what of the volumes John speaks of which would exist if His every word and deed had been recorded?&nbsp; Yes the truth of scripture is important - but would the message of the Gospel be less for the bible never having been put to paper? Nope.

 

[Susan]

I would say that denying the resurrection of Christ or the Trinitarian nature of God is a major error on a primary issue, as would be saying that the Bible was not inspired in any way or is a mere legend.

Any of those denials would tear the heart from Christianity.

 

[jseek21]

Today at 06:46 PM Br. Max said this in Post #53 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680458#post680458)

And what of the truths not recorded in Scripture? what of the volumes John speaks of which would exist if His every word and deed had been recorded?&nbsp; Yes the truth of scripture is important - but would the message of the Gospel be less for the bible never having been put to paper? Nope.

the Truth in Scripture is the Truth. God has created the Gospel as His message to mankind.
You forget the first part of that verse "All scripture is given by inspiration of God"

 

[Job_38]

True spirituality covers all of reality. There are things the Bible tells us as absolutes which are sinful -- which do not conform to the character of God. But aside from these the Lordship of Christ covers all of life and all of life equally. It is not only that true spirituality covers all of life, but it covers all parts of the spectrum of life equally. In this sense there is nothing concerning reality that is not spiritual.
(Francis A. Schaeffer, A Christian Manifesto, Ch. 1)

God's Truth is everywhere. It is manifested in the creation (Rom 1:20) To deny the Truth found in Gods Word is to deny the Truth found in Creation. Just as the rain falls and the sun rises, Gods Truth stands firm and is always and forever true.

 

[seebs]

It's curious to me how much modern theology depends on a questionable translation in II Timothy.

 

[seebs]

Today at 08:09 PM jseek21 said this in Post #55 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680508#post680508)

the Truth in Scripture is the Truth. God has created the Gospel as His message to mankind.
You forget the first part of that verse "All scripture is given by inspiration of God"

The word "is" was added by translators, but it's not obvious that it's the correct translation.

 

[Job_38]

Modern theology?

 

[Job_38]

How so? in response to thread 58

 

[seebs]

Today at 08:42 PM Job_38 said this in Post #59 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680584#post680584)

Modern theology?

Yes. In the last 150 years or so, the face of theology has been radically altered by people trying to change theology to protect it against undesired changes. Modern notions of word-for-word inerrancy are a human invention of the last hundred years or so; before that, everyone considered interpretation of Scripture to be a challenging task requiring study and knowledge. Most of this rests on the questionable translation of II Timothy 3:16 as saying that "all Scripture is ...", when it is quite likely that a more correct reading would be "All Scripture inspired by God is suitable...", meaning "whatever parts of this are inspired by God, are suitable for...". Similarly, the reinterpretation of Paul's reference to the Old Testament and early Gospels into "everything currently sold under the name Bible" changes things substantially.

These changes were introduced recently, and have done immense harm to the faith.

 

[Job_38]

Thats a pretty big assertion, anything to back it up with.

I agree that people are trying to rationalize theology and that has affected it.