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Hypothetical: Creationism becomes standard in science classes

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Speedwell

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God did it.
Why? It shouldn't even come up in science class, any more than it does in English, Auto Mechanics or Home Economics.
People who believe that God did it are free to do that, and people who don't believe God did it don't have to. I believed from an early age that God did it, and there was nothing in my science classes to disabuse me of that belief, neither the teacher, the materials or my fellow students (of various beliefs themselves, it being a public school).
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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@AV1611VET - Thanks, but that's deeply confusing.

"Embedded Age says the universe was created millions ... if not billions ... of years old; but only created 6000 years ago."

So was it created millions/billions of years ago, or 6000 years ago? It can't be both.
For the sake of your sanity, just ignore him and his antics. It will make your experience here much more enjoyable.
 
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AV1611VET

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So was it created millions/billions of years ago, or 6000 years ago? It can't be both.
This is what I said, with emphasis:
Whereas Embedded Age says the universe was created millions ... if not billions ... of years OLD; but only created 6000 years AGO.
 
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Speedwell

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After the curriculum has been established and teachers located (even though neither problem has been addressed by our Creationist colleagues) there remains one more difficulty: The students.
I don't know if any of you have ever taught high school kids; I have, and can tell you that their BS detectors are all set to full gain. I've never seen any Creationist propaganda that a class of smart AP biology students couldn't make mincemeat out of.
 
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Widlast

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Is science class the only class taught in your schools?

Can't Creationism be taught in history class?

Or is it science class or the highway?
It is certainly not history either. Regardless of how you may try to paint the situation, "Creationism" is not science, not history, it is a belief system held by certain religious groups. Perhaps sociology? mythology? And if you are going to push the notion of "fairness" you will need to allow for all the various creation stories. There are HUNDREDS.
 
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Widlast

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No ... the problem ... (as I see it anyway) ... starts when people start saying Creationism doesn't belong in school because it doesn't belong in science class.

What's next? banning the diagramming of sentences because it isn't taught in gym class?
Yes, diagramming sentences in GYM CLASS would be idiotic.
Just as teaching calculus in a cooking class would be "out of place".
 
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joshua 1 9

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The big question then, of course, will be what version of creationism?
Right now the best to follow is Theistic Evolution as defined by Francis Collins. It is best because it is the most up to date based on the latest research & understanding. Collins is a leading expert in his field as he was a director. Of course new information and new understanding is discovered all the time as there is a lot of research going on.

While leading the National Human Genome Research Institute, Collins was elected to the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences. He was a Kilby International Awards recipient in 1993, and he received the Biotechnology Heritage Award with J. Craig Venter in 2001.[55][56] He received the William Allan Award from the American Society of Human Genetics in 2005. In 2007 he was presented with the Presidential Medal of Freedom.[57] In 2008 he was awarded the Inamori Ethics Prize[58] and National Medal of Science.[59] In the same year, Collins won the Trotter Prize where he delivered a lecture called "The Language of God".

Collins and Venter shared the "Biography of the Year" title from A&E Network in 2000.[60] In 2005, Collins and Venter were honored as two of "America's Best Leaders" by U.S. News & World Report and the Harvard University Center for Public Leadership.[61]

Collins received the Albany Medical Center Prize in 2010 and the Pro Bono Humanum Award of the Galien Foundation in 2012.[62]

Collins was a keynote speaker at the Congress of Future Medical Leaders in 2014.
 
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joshua 1 9

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There is no theory of Intelligent Design it's a myth and a wannabe belief.
Darwin's theory was a response to the Intelligent Design "myth".

The 1859 publication of Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection put forward an explanation for complexity and adaptation, which reflects scientific consensus on the origins of biological diversity,[1] and provides a counter-argument to the watchmaker analogy.

Watches and timepieces have been used as examples of complicated technology in philosophical discussions. For example, Cicero, Voltaire and René Descartes all used timepieces in arguments regarding purpose. The watchmaker analogy, as described here, was used by Bernard le Bovier de Fontenelle in 1686,[7] but was most famously formulated by Paley.

Paley used the watchmaker analogy in his book Natural Theology, or Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity collected from the Appearances of Nature, published in 1802. In it, Paley wrote that if a pocket watch is found on a heath, it is most reasonable to assume that someone dropped it and that it was made by at least one watchmaker, not by natural forces.
 
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Speedwell

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Right now the best to follow is Theistic Evolution as defined by Francis Collins. It is best because it is the most up to date based on the latest research & understanding. Collins is a leading expert in his field as he was a director. Of course new information and new understanding is discovered all the time as there is a lot of research going on.

While leading the National Human Genome Research Institute, Collins was elected to the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences. He was a Kilby International Awards recipient in 1993, and he received the Biotechnology Heritage Award with J. Craig Venter in 2001.[55][56] He received the William Allan Award from the American Society of Human Genetics in 2005. In 2007 he was presented with the Presidential Medal of Freedom.[57] In 2008 he was awarded the Inamori Ethics Prize[58] and National Medal of Science.[59] In the same year, Collins won the Trotter Prize where he delivered a lecture called "The Language of God".

Collins and Venter shared the "Biography of the Year" title from A&E Network in 2000.[60] In 2005, Collins and Venter were honored as two of "America's Best Leaders" by U.S. News & World Report and the Harvard University Center for Public Leadership.[61]

Collins received the Albany Medical Center Prize in 2010 and the Pro Bono Humanum Award of the Galien Foundation in 2012.[62]

Collins was a keynote speaker at the Congress of Future Medical Leaders in 2014.
No doubt--but Collins' theistic evolution raises theological issue offensive to both YECs and IDers which I can't see either of them giving any ground on.
Which brings us back to the OP's question: how would creationists resolve these issues of they got a chance to teach creationism in the public schools?
 
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joshua 1 9

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The point of this thread is to ask those who want creationism taught in schools how they would go about doing it, and which version they would choose.
I would use Collins book: "The Language of God". Even you could put this book on a summer reading list if the students are to busy during the school year. One thing we have to remember is that science is a study of the natural world and God is outside of the natural world.
 
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joshua 1 9

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how would creationists resolve these issues of they got a chance to teach creationism in the public schools?
There is nothing to resolve. Students should at least have a Wiki level of understanding of all the various Creation theories. As a dispensationalist I am YEC myself, but that does not make any of the other theories any less valid.

There is a huge fight about this in the Congress with Betsy DeVos seeking to be approved for Secretary of Education.
 
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Strathos

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What would the "point" be then?

Let me see if I can break it down for you.

- Most creationists want creationism taught in public schools
- Creationists typically focus on attacking the ToE, but when you question them about their beliefs, they rarely align with each other on the details of creation. Basically all they really have in common is being against evolution.
- So, in a hypothetical scenario where they have succeeded, and their views can be taught in public schools, how would they resolve this problem?
- It's not enough to merely tear down evolution. Even if that was accomplished, they would have to replace it with something, and that something would have to be consistent.
- So I'm asking, in that hypothetical situation, how do they decide exactly what to teach? How can they come to a consensus, when so many of them have such radically different ideas?

Do you understand now?
 
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AV1611VET

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After the curriculum has been established and teachers located (even though neither problem has been addressed by our Creationist colleagues) ...
What do you think post #3 was all about?

Let's see you answer them.
Speedwell said:
I've never seen any Creationist propaganda that a class of smart AP biology students couldn't make mincemeat out of.
Uh-huh.

And I'll fail them too.

QV please: 59
 
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AV1611VET

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It is certainly not history either.
I don't care what you think it isn't.

The attitude "it's science or it's the highway" smacks of some kind of Tribulation period technocracy, where scientism is the new religion.
 
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AV1611VET

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Yes, diagramming sentences in GYM CLASS would be idiotic.
Just as teaching calculus in a cooking class would be "out of place".
Wow.

Words ... fail ... me.

swastika-building1.jpg
 
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VirOptimus

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I don't care what you think it isn't.

The attitude "it's science or it's the highway" smacks of some kind of Tribulation period technocracy, where scientism is the new religion.

No, you dont understand. Science is all about physical reality.

Creationism in all its form is about metaphysics and that does not belong in science class.

Also, invoking magic makes everything possible and is therefore not rational. Your "embedded age" is also meningless, its just a (bad) Omphalos argument and you are in fact a YEC.
 
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AV1611VET

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Your "embedded age" is also meningless, its just a (bad) Omphalos argument and you are in fact a YEC.
Fishing for ratings, are you?

Are you so desperate to get LIKES that you have to violate rules to do it?
 
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